I am a Indy but like obama

[Cheaper2buyit]

bart & well glad your here every time I ask something they bring something else. I don't know a lots of fact gobby gibby stuff but I know common since. I know bush didn't give a rats ass about Iraq but he want to prove to daddy that he could get saddam whats his name. So instead of sending a hit squad he & dick head made up fairy tale then every on the ran with. Just like I said about bin whats his name if you want to kill em then do it send a couple of suit case bombs & call it a day or better have isreal pull their weight for once & use all that money we em give to protect us for once. I bet 9 to one they know were bin is. Or since iran is far worst their enemy let them go head & bomb their ass. Let them put their balls and on the line. If wrong then tell me i am wrong show me how many troups they have in iraq or afgan or any were else we are losing our blood.

[Cheaper2buyit]

And dog who isn't down the rnc so obama is your friend now you going by not first names but nick names.
THE POOR PEOPLE THAT BARTS CARES ABOUT ARE THE ONES WORK TO BRING YOUR MEALS OR BAG YOUR GROCEY OR WHEN YOU TO HAVE YOUR CAR FIXED OR WHEN LOVES ONE TO A OLD FOLKS HOME OR A HOSPICE OR EVEN BABYSIT YOUR KIDS OR A LONG LIST OF JOBS WHO DON'T HEATHCARE ARE NOT THE ALMIGHTY MIDDLE CLASS THAT EVERY LIKES TO TALK ABOUT TO WIN VOTES THOSE ARE THEY PEOPLE WHO WORK MAYBE TWO JOBS BECAUSE IT TAKES ONE TO SEND THERE KIDS TO SCHOOL. EVEN PUBLIC SCHOOLS NOW CHARGE FOR KINDEGARTER CLASS IN JOHNSON COUNTY

[dirty dog]

700 billion a day based on projected medical care, projected, projected, projected get the point projected, just like the balanced buget libs always scream about, projected., based on certain percentage amounts none of which were ever acheived. As I have said now 3 times, Obama could have ended these wars already, but there still going on, so enough of the its Bush's fault crutch you lean on to explain away everything. For the record and as has been stated many times, I was not a big Bush fan, in fact I was vocal against a lot of stuff, but I am a big personal responsibility person and I am a big the buck stops here person. The time to stop blaming Bush is over, there are many areas that could have been addressed by this current President that have not been addressed and I have pointed out several of them. Instead of addressing this countrys most pressing issues such as JOBS, he has done nothing but have a fucking job summit, there are many things the government can do to facilitate business growth and expansion which he has failed to address. When anyone stands in oppisition to something he does then immediately the reply is Bush caused it, yiou know what I could give a rats ass who caused it, I want it fixed and when I see an administration more concerned with passing party platform pet projects and ignoring immediate needs, its amazing to me that gas is closer to $3.00 a gallon then $2.00 and this president gets a pass, when the former one got pounded because you know he was in bed with the gas companies and they were raping us. So what Obama is in bed with them now, I see nothing being done, so I guess he must be raping us too.

Bart, progressive is a new word for liberal, you and I both know the ideologies involved. Once again you have painted me Republican because I disagree with moving our country towards a socialist state and away from capitalisim, the same capitalism that has made this country the strongest country in the world. I dont want to be like France which seems to be the liberal utopia, France a country with little morals and little backbone. You can say that he is not moving us towards a socialist state but by definition the larger the government grows and the more control is garners the closet to socialism you are. Socialism, when the government controls the means of production. So you are wrong to say I should just chose a side, because personally I find our current two party system as failed and flawed almost beyond repair. As for name calling it has been my experiance that the name calling generally originates from the liberal side of the fence. Just as your response to a thread not to long ago.

Wellendowed, it is obvious you have a strong anti war position, and thats okay, but you cannot associate the war as a GOP only problem, when it was equally supported by the Dems and I am talking about Afgan and Iraq, it would be nice if we could all take a position of oppisition after we see how things are going to go, but with the exception of Obama the Dems supported the war effort fully so lets at least be fair, and for the record, I was angry at Bush for the war, not because we entered it, but because he did not fight it correctly, he allowed it to turn into another Vietnam. But all that being said, Obama could end this war with the stroke of a pen, but he choses not to, so he is not tied to the outcome as much as Bush.

Bart as you know deep down inside, a lot of the stuff that is suppose to have happened such as the spitting and stuff never happened, in todays world you can't fart and not have it caught on camera. This stuff is the work of overzealous Liberals much like a lot of the stuff which makes the news is the work of overzealous right wingers, much of the stuff said about the tea party is not true and some of the actions taken by a very small number of them is not representative of the party as the stuff done by a small percentage of liberals is not representative of the dem party.

Wellendowed your comment that Al queada is made up to aid the GOP agenda, that is an assnine statement, were they made up under clinton when the blew up the USS Cole, or when the bombed the trade center in 1993. Dude that statement is a slap in the face to every man, woman and child who has died on both sides of the war. If you believe that AL Queada is not a threat then you are blind to reality. Obama believes their real, the FBI and CIA believe it, and you better believe it too.

Bart, in response to your statement about personal responsibility, your right most dont plan on getting into debt, but they did and then instead of taking responsibility for it they ask the government to bail them out through bankruptcy instead of owning up to their debt and working hard to resolve it. Our society has become a society of looking for someone to bail us out when we fuck up, what happened to making a decision and living with the outcome no matter what it is and then learning from the mistakes, today people dont learn because they are looking for someone to bail them out of their mistakes. You know when I was arrested and was looking at 30 years in Prison, the Feds offered me a free walk, told my attorney and me I could walk away a free man if I just gave them some names, and these are names any long time KC person would be familar with from the NorthEast area. But I took responsibility for my decisions and paid the price for them. People have got to be stand up again, it was the strength of our society, we cant be a society that looks for the bailout all the time.

I guess what I am trying to say in this long post, we can agree to disagree and be friends, but until we can enter in a dialog where both sides are truely open to understanding the other side and willing to compromise their positions because it would be best for everyone we are going to fail, Its time, right now its time, to stop using Bush as an excuse for all that is wrong in the world and its time to stop holding up Obama as a rock star who is unable to make mistakes. Its time to start holding him accountable just as we have done all who have gone before them. You know there are many on this board who think I hate Longer Monger, I dont hate him, I dislike that fact that he is not open to any opinion other than the one he holds, he is unwilling to recognise that someone else might have a differing opinion that has merit. I came out on this board a week or so ago and gave praise to Obama for his position on off shore drilling, this angered some of those whom I have been in agreement with.

In closing I say this about Palin, the Dems give her more recognition then those in the GOP. You know there are two sides of every coin, for every Limbaugh and Beck their is a Oberman and Mair.

[dirty dog]

Obama is my friend as much as you and everyone else on this board is, I dont dislike him as a person, I dislike some of the decisions he has made and as I have stated before I have like a few of the things he has done. So I refer to him as Barry, yes its a little sarcastic but hey thats just me.

Hey make no mistake about it, I am an asshole, I can be the biggest asshole in the bunch, I am educated and opinionated, I have seen a lot, done a lot. I came from a poor Sicilian family, and today I live comfortably. I work hard, play hard and I have little patience for stupidity. No one ever gave me anything and I don't ask for anything, I earned every thing I have and I have 4 bullet hole scars and two college degrees to show for it. So you know what you get from me, I pull no punches and I tell it like I see it, so if I come across harsh, I appologise but thats just me.

[Cheaper2buyit]

Dirty don't you come mucking things with appologise for things we don't do that at all. Say what you mean all the time if they don't like it the tell em CHEAPER said " Have a coke & smile & shut da fuck up". I got your back. I feel very pride that the mods have not close this thread down.

[Bartman1963]

Actually Dirty, in spite of what you might think I respect straightforwardness. You are just as entitled to maintain your independent status as I am to declare my Liberalism. But...you do sound like you have your mind made up.

I do disagree with you on several points, and we will no doubt continue to disagree. That is necessary.

I will not concede to your points, but I will, as you have, remain civil in tone and argument. I hope this can serve as an example.

I saw what I saw in the video of the spitting. That guy with his hands cupped or somebody else close to him got spit on Cleavers face. If it got there on purpose, I can't say for absolute certain. I didn't see a huge gob of spit in a frame by frame look. But I don't have the software for that. I do know that if Cleaver faked the wiping of his face, he deserves an Oscar, because the disgust he showed, and the timing looked absolutely real.

Bankruptcy is a needed system. Personal responsibility has a limit. There are types of bankruptcy where you are forced by a Judge to pay your debts. All of my friends fell into that category, I think its called Chapter 13. Chapter seven removes the debt entirely and you must prove that you can't pay any of them. If you are you suggesting a different path for handling excessive debt please let me know what your plan would be.
Not getting into the situation in the first place is the best solution, but shit does happen.
Considering the huge population of this country, the number of bankruptcies per year is not that large in my opinion.

In response towards moving our country towards socialism...Medicare is pure socialism. Social Security is pure socialism. Unemployment is pure socialism. Medicaid is pure socialism. No one I know, you, or anyone wants to get rid of these things. Except for Medicaid. And they don't want to get rid of that when they find out the major expense Medicaid pays for is keeping Grandma in the nursing home.

My point is that people talk about socialism, but fail to reflect what their lives would be like without some of the protections of socialistic policies and programs. If the Government keeps GM, I have a problem with that. If it is sold again, then fine. A huge company was saved and hundreds of thousands of jobs were either saved or at least prevented from major difficulty. As to healthcare...it aint perfect. It couldn't be. It's the best we could get with the political conditions as they are.

As to Iraq...the war should be over. But how was it supposed to end? Were we to leave in a matter of days? Never going to happen. A phased draw down was and is happening. That war is ending as we speak.

Afghanistan is proceeding just as Obama campaigned on. He said he was going to increase troop levels and he did. Now he has to make the strategic decision we pay him for. Stay or go. Doesn't know yet. Well quick decisions are sometimes the best, but not always. Sometimes time and consideration make more sense, and I think waiting is fine, we need to be correct this time.

As to name calling, what I said in that post was over the limit. I admit that. But it was a a over the top response to the numerous things said previously in that thread.

By the way, my balls are fine. My wife lets me see them in the jar she keeps them in at least once a week.

[Bartman1963]

Lastly, why are blowjobs sometimes called "french"? Cause the French suck. I'm not one of the progressives who respect their country or their ways.

[dirty dog]

Bart, if there was a video I did not see it, but the actions of one person arn't representative of a whole group.The personal responsibility was initially in regards to someone with 50 credit cards, I would hope you would agree that someone who gets 50 credit cards is not being responsible. Your right all of those things are socialism, and they were started by the great socialist Roosevelt. But one big difference is that these programs were suppose to be funded by the people using them thats why we pay social security and medicare tax. Unemployment is also paid for by the employer through tax as a cost of employing someone and when it is used you are being paid with the money that you earned. But what about the take over of Financial Aid, cap and trade and the government controls which can prevent you from selling your home, the take over of General Motors and firing of it GM. At this time I dont see Health care as socialism, because there is not government entity, I do see it as a lot of unnecessary expense when all that was required was regulation, such as we had in the 50 and 60's and opening up medicare to those who are below a minimum income level. It would have solved the problem of those who are uninsured and it would have reighned in the cost of healthcare through regulation. I dont have a problem with government oversight, I have a problem with government operated.

[Cheaper2buyit]

I will say it so we leave it alone anybody with more than 5 credit cards is a dumb ass

[Bartman1963]

Dirty, honestly I have never met anyone with 50 credit cards. I didn't specifically address that because I didn't like the hypothetical. But if I had the ability to get 50, and did it, that would be irresponsible behavior. Absolutely.

I also agree that at the start of the programs you mention they were to be paid for with taxes you pay in or employer taxes. But that couldn't last. The demographics of the tax payers have changed. As you know there is no way that those still paying taxes can afford to pay the taxes needed to keep Mom and Dad and themselves on SSA or the other programs.

I think that the way GM was run caused the Government to have to step in and save the company from going under. They had to use taxpayer money to do it. Their managers deserved a good shit canning. A little personal responsibility for a shitty job done.

You are one of the few people I have heard talk about opening up Medicare. The reason that wasn't done is because it was "a non starter". None of our elected reps would have voted for it out of fear for their job. Even though it was the right thing to do.

As to government oversight vs operated...choose your poison. I mean both aren't perfect, but to me better gov't than somebody who just wants to pick your pocket for personal gain.

[wellendowed1911]

Dirty- yes I am against the War and I can at least say that Obama was against from day 1 as well. Let's be realistic Dirty- you can't end a War like that overnight it has to be a strategic exit plan and Obama has done that with both Iraq and afganistan- had McCain won our troops would be there full stregth for 100 years if McCain has his way. Here's another fact: since Obama took over Al-Queadas recruitment has diminished- you know why? Obama's rhetoric is quite different from Bush- Bush didn't give a shit about the middle east and thereby it was very easy for the middle east to have anti-american hate and thereby icrease their recruitment. There are still a lot of muslim nations in muslim countries who have a favorable view ofObama basically because he's a son of a muslim.
Cheaper mentioned earlier that we are doing Isreal's dirty work and he's so right. The muslim world's greatest enemy is isreal- but when is the last time you heard of a muslim crashing a jet into an Isreali public building? Or have you ever heard of an Isreali commercial flight being hijacked? No because we have American soldiers dying in the middle east for the survival of Isreal. isreal would love for U.S to attack Iran and it's no secret that Isreal wanted Saddam to be removed and they had Bush to do it. Remember Iraq was the last independent muslim nation to attack Isreal- go back to the persian gulf war- iraq fired hundreds of scud missiles at Isreal in order to break the coalition- if you remember Isreal was going to retaliate but the muslim nations that was fighting alongside the U.S during the Persian gulf war stated that if isreal retailated they would leave the U.S coalition because they wouldn't fight on the same side as isreal.
Now do I think Democrats are all angels? NO! There's corruption on both sides, but the fact of the matter is GOP is in the the hands of big banks and Insurance companies- the old trickled down economics of Reagan days are over- the GOP has screwed the middle class in the past 8 years more than anyone else has ever done and that's factual- the richest 2% gets a tax break under Bush and the GOP- where were the Tea party when Bush cut taxes for the Super Rich? by looking ar the crowds who show up for the TEA rallies- I am pretty sure 95% of them would get a tax break under Obama's plan- that's why Joe the plumber looked like an asshole because Obama's plan would have saved him more money. Also, Obama's agenda is very liberal, but it's far from socialism- same with the health Care Bill- it's very liberal yes- but socialist No!

[dirty dog]

Wellendowed I would have to disagree with you that " The muslim world's greatest enemy is isreal- but when is the last time you heard of a muslim crashing a jet into an Isreali public building?" Are you serious, Isreal has not publically vowed to kill all of the arabs, as the Iranian president has said he would do to the jews, Isreal responds with violence only when provoked, If as you say they were the greatest enemy of the muslim world then why has there been peace between Isreal and Egypt, Saudia Arabia, Jordan and Syria for many years now. When was the last time a suicide bomber from Isreal blew up a disco in Iran, or a bus or a supermarket. When was the last time a plane flew into a tower in Isreal, never but when was the last time a rocket was launched into a growded market by hamas, probably 5 minutes ago.

The gop is in the hand of the bank, yet Barney Frank got some sweet heart deals, you know if your honest, big business owns our government and that is all of our government on both sides, thats my biggest problem with the liberal argument, they have to always paint the Rep as more corrupt as themselves, the reality is that they are both bought and paid for, for every banker with a GOP senator in their pocket their is a union with a Dem in theirs.

As for trickle down economy, dude it always been a trickle down economy. If you don't have money at the top then you dont have employment at the bottom. You can have 30 workers in a room, but if you dont have a buisness to employ them then you just have 30 people sitting in a room.

[wellendowed1911]

oh with a doubt both parties have their share of corruption- I honestly don't think either party truly serves the people- both parties fuck the middle class- but the Republicans fuck the Midddle class with a bigger dick and no lube. Dirty if you read into my analysis about Isreal than you would see that the United States does Isreal dirty work. Any muslim would tell you that isreal is Islam greatest enemy- the muslim world attacks us because we are an easier target and the fact that we financially back Isreal. The reason why you don't see attacks on Isreal is that their security is tiop notch and if I am mistaken every male once he's 18 must join the miliarty or rather have combat training- basically Isreal is as military as you can get based on per population. What kills me dirty is how after all these years the avg person still doesn't see the bullshit. I don't know how old you are, but look at Reagan's first term- he inherited a hostage crisis an oil embargo and high ass inflation from Carter- did he turn it around in 1 year? No actually it didn't start getting better until Reagan's 3rd year- and there were so many critics against Reagan. However, govt got bigger under Reagan- Reagan surely rasied taxes- so where was the Tea party? Govt got much bigger under Bush- he only gave tax breaks to the very rich- 2 wars- a recession on his watch- a housing crisis on his watch- no regulation of banks on his watch- the biggest terror attack on his watch- no job growth on his watch- he entered with a surplus and left with a trillion plus defecit- give Obama a chance that's all I am saying.

[ender1138]

Originally Posted by Bartman1963

As to government oversight vs operated...choose your poison. I mean both aren't perfect, but to me better gov't than somebody who just wants to pick your pocket for personal gain.

so... greed for power and control is better then greed for profit?

What is so bad about someone wanting to make a profit, in your view?

[Bartman1963]

Interesting way to try to frame the discussion. Greed for power vs the greed of profit.

First, and you know this: Government isn't run by pols. They think they make the rules, but the people who run things, like the FBI, the State Dept, Homeland security etc,.. they are run by bureaucrats. Civil servants who see the pols come and see them go.

And please correct me if I misinterpret your question, but are you trying to frame this debate in the terms of these civil servants, the people making up the largest single workforce in our country, as being full of greed for power? The person who doesn't get over time pay and puts in 60 hours a week, not for the good of the agency or his country in a time of war, but for greed for power.

Yes. I trust that person, that career civil servant, more than I trust the equivalent middle management type in the corporate world. Because they are going to make a decision based on rules. A framework. A statute.

Your corporate middle manager? Makes every decision he has to make based on whether or not it will make the company money.

Who would you want running your Medicare?

I refuse to answer your question about making a profit, because its leading and falsely places me in the role of either being or defending a crackpot who doesn't believe in making a buck.

Go fishing elsewhere, Jimmy Houston.