In case you haven't noticed, Obama is about to lose Iraq

[Guest040616]

Originally Posted by I B Hankering

Bush is smarter and figured that some 144 months constituted more than enough months for Saddam to come clean on his WMD programs, and Bush reckoned that enough-was-enough

The only thing that I know with any certainty that Shrubbie was smart enough to do was to figure out a way to avoid the military draft during the Vietnam War era.

That proved to be Shrubya's first (and only) MISSION ACCOMPLISHED moment!

[Yssup Rider]

Originally Posted by I B Hankering

Blix claimed the whole issue could have been resolved in 1991, if Saddam had cooperated, BigKoTex: the BUTTer Bar ASShat. So, you'll need to explain why you -- with your gift of *hindsight* -- think twelve years of "cat and mouse" games doesn't constitute those "few additional months" you allude to, BigKoTex: the BUTTer Bar ASShat.

So, you almost raised a decent point in a debate IBIdiot, but you had to coat it with your own brand of rude, belligerent horseshit.

No wonder NOBODY believes what you say. Even if it's true, which it seldom is, it's so rudely and obnoxiously presented that nobody wants to read it.

The Original Dipshit of the Year continues to rain feces down on the board.

[I B Hankering]

Originally Posted by bigtex

The only thing that I know with any certainty that Shrubbie was smart enough to do was to figure out a way to avoid the military draft during the Vietnam War era.

That proved to be Shrubya's first (and only) MISSION ACCOMPLISHED moment!

W did his service in the National Guard, BigKoTex: the BUTTer Bar ASShat, just like the team members of the Dallas Cowboys.

Originally Posted by Yssup Rider

The Original Dipshit of the Year continues to rain feces down on the board.

Your mini-autobiographies are so humorous, you lying, hypocritical, racist, cum-gobbling golem fucktard, HDDB, DEM.

[lustylad]

After Desert Storm, Iraq gave the coalition forces and UN inspectors an inflated accounting of its actual WMD stockpiles. This perpetuated the cat and mouse game of UN inspections for 12 years. We kept looking for VX, nerve gas, and other materials that were not there. Western intelligence was convinced Saddam was hiding the stuff. After all, he declared it, so where the fuck is it? Why would he deliberately maintain a charade that kept UN inspectors on his ass for 12 years and ultimately led to a second US invasion?

After he was captured, Saddam was interrogated by an Arabic-speaking FBI agent of Lebanese descent who gradually gained his confidence. He explained that he couldn't let Iran know the truth about no longer having WMDs. That's why he kept up the charade. He could not afford to look weak in the eyes of Iran or his own people. Admitting weakness is fatal in the Middle East.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/interrog...s-confessions/

This was a huge failure of Western intelligence. To my knowledge nobody at the time figured out it was all a big feint by Saddam (and why). For all the billions of dollars we spend on intelligence we still don't understand the Middle East mindset.

So there you have it - Saddam lied, not Bush. If you want to bash Bush, do it right. Bash him for believing Saddam's lies and for believing the judgment of the entire Western intelligence community.

.

[I B Hankering]

Originally Posted by lustylad

After Desert Storm, Iraq gave the coalition forces and UN inspectors an inflated accounting of its actual WMD stockpiles. This perpetuated the cat and mouse game of UN inspections for 12 years. We kept looking for VX, nerve gas, and other materials that were not there. Western intelligence was convinced Saddam was hiding the stuff - after all, he declared it, didn't he? Why would he deliberately maintain a charade that kept UN inspectors on his ass for 12 years and ultimately led to a second US invasion?

After he was captured, Saddam was interrogated by an Arabic-speaking FBI agent of Lebanese descent who gradually gained his confidence. He explained that he couldn't let Iran know the truth about no longer having WMDs. That's why he kept up the charade. He could not afford to look weak in the eyes of Iran or his own people. Admitting weakness is fatal in the Middle East.

This was a huge failure of Western intelligence. To my knowledge nobody figured out at the time it was all a big feint by Saddam. For all the billions of dollars we spend on intelligence we don't understand the mindset in the Middle East.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/interrog...s-confessions/

.

+1

Robert Jervis explains much in: Why Intelligence Fails: Lessons from the Iranian Revolution and the Iraq War, (2010).

Torrey Froscher's remarks: "Jervis does not discount or excuse the specific errors of analysis and sourcing that received most of the attention in the official postmortems of the Iraq failure. However, he notes that critics invariably leave the impression that had these mistakes been avoided, the Intelligence Community could have reached the correct judgments about Iraq’s weapons. In fact, given the information available, the least damning verdict that might have been offered was that there was no solid evidence of continuing programs. Any claim that Saddam had ended his WMD programs would have been seen as highly implausible, even if there was evidence to support it. As Jervis notes, critics do not wish to acknowledge this because there is a presumption that “bad outcomes are explained by bad processes.” It is more comforting to believe that if the right reforms and organizational changes are made, future failures can be avoided...."

https://www.cia.gov/library/center-f...e-iranian.html

Torrey Froscher was Deputy Director for Analysis for the Center for Weapons Intelligence, Nonproliferation, and Arms Control in the Directorate of Intelligence before his retirement in 2006. He now works for CENTRA Technology, Inc.

[LexusLover]

Originally Posted by bigtex

...was smart enough to do was to figure out a way to avoid the military draft during the Vietnam War era....

You mean you were drafted?

[boardman]

Originally Posted by Yssup Rider

Yeah, ones that had been shut down. Why is this so difficult for the Bushatrons to swallow?

Fact is, they didn't find any. They kept looking. They still didn't find any.

Now, more than a decade later, they suddenly find "something" they couldn't find before in the most likely place to look.

And it's shit they can't use.

Is that were you would hide you WMDs if you were, in fact trying to hide them? In the plant where they were made?

What have they suddenly found? The stuff that the press is all up in arms about because ISIS got their hands on it? That's shit from the '80 that had been partially dismantled.

I really wonder if some of you are naive enough to think Saddam didn't have WMDs or do you just use the fact that they weren't found to bash the war.

We did in fact find WMDs
http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/...classified.pdf

There is evidence that Sarin was used in IEDs. So there were some stockpiles of it somewhere.

The stuff existed. Why didn't we find it? Maybe because as Hans Blix noted, the Iraqis were "playing games" and misdirecting the inspectors.

What were all those trucks hauling to Syria and Libya just prior to the invasion?
Where did Syria get the chemical weapons they used last year?
If there was now proof that Saddam trucked the stuff to Syria pre war would you be inclined to say the war was justified?

Why were Iraqi soldiers shooting at UN inspectors who tried to approach trucks moving something out of suspected weapons plants?

Saddam had the means and showed his willingness to use WMD's on many occasions. He openly defied the UN. He continued to play games by admitting he had them then couldn't produce the evidence that they were destroyed blaming it on poor record keeping.

I was recently audited by my insurance company and found to be out of compliance on some minor things and directed to correct the problem and provide proof. You know what? I did exactly what they asked exactly how they asked me to do it because I didn't want to have to find a new insurance policy.

Why would Saddam play all those games with the rest of the world watching, knowing his country and his own life were in danger if he wasn't trying to get away with something bigger?

Which scenario is more likely, Saddam destroyed all WMDs as directed by numerous UN resolutions and had nothing to hide? He was just toying with the UN for the fun of it.
or
Saddam had WMD's and pulled several fast ones to get the WMDs out of the country and into the hands of allies.

Despite the evidence there are still those that insist the holocaust never happened either.

[cptjohnstone]

Originally Posted by lustylad

After Desert Storm, Iraq gave the coalition forces and UN inspectors an inflated accounting of its actual WMD stockpiles. This perpetuated the cat and mouse game of UN inspections for 12 years. We kept looking for VX, nerve gas, and other materials that were not there. Western intelligence was convinced Saddam was hiding the stuff. After all, he declared it, so where the fuck is it? Why would he deliberately maintain a charade that kept UN inspectors on his ass for 12 years and ultimately led to a second US invasion?

After he was captured, Saddam was interrogated by an Arabic-speaking FBI agent of Lebanese descent who gradually gained his confidence. He explained that he couldn't let Iran know the truth about no longer having WMDs. That's why he kept up the charade. He could not afford to look weak in the eyes of Iran or his own people. Admitting weakness is fatal in the Middle East.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/interrog...s-confessions/

This was a huge failure of Western intelligence. To my knowledge nobody at the time figured out it was all a big feint by Saddam (and why). For all the billions of dollars we spend on intelligence we still don't understand the Middle East mindset.

So there you have it - Saddam lied, not Bush. If you want to bash Bush, do it right. Bash him for believing Saddam's lies and for believing the judgment of the entire Western intelligence community.

.

it was a 60 minutes show and I quoted it many many times but the demo's are NOT going to believe it, no matter what

if it was the democrats in the same boat, they would just lie their way out of it

[Guest040616]

Originally Posted by I B Hankering

W did his service in the National Guard

Didn't you mean to say that W "cut and run" and "did not fulfill his obligations."

From Wiki:

"In September 2004, Lawrence Korb, an Assistant Secretary of Defense under President Ronald Reagan, after reviewing the payroll records for Bush's last two years of service, concluded that they indicated that Bush did not fulfill his obligations and could have been ordered to active duty as a result."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_...ce_controversy

[Guest040616]

Originally Posted by LexusLover

You mean you were drafted?

Nope, I joined!

Were you drafted or did you join?

Or none of the above?

[Jewish Lawyer]

Originally Posted by lustylad

After Desert Storm, Iraq gave the coalition forces and UN inspectors an inflated accounting of its actual WMD stockpiles. This perpetuated the cat and mouse game of UN inspections for 12 years. We kept looking for VX, nerve gas, and other materials that were not there. Western intelligence was convinced Saddam was hiding the stuff. After all, he declared it, so where the fuck is it? Why would he deliberately maintain a charade that kept UN inspectors on his ass for 12 years and ultimately led to a second US invasion?

After he was captured, Saddam was interrogated by an Arabic-speaking FBI agent of Lebanese descent who gradually gained his confidence. He explained that he couldn't let Iran know the truth about no longer having WMDs. That's why he kept up the charade. He could not afford to look weak in the eyes of Iran or his own people. Admitting weakness is fatal in the Middle East.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/interrog...s-confessions/

This was a huge failure of Western intelligence. To my knowledge nobody at the time figured out it was all a big feint by Saddam (and why). For all the billions of dollars we spend on intelligence we still don't understand the Middle East mindset.

So there you have it - Saddam lied, not Bush. If you want to bash Bush, do it right. Bash him for believing Saddam's lies and for believing the judgment of the entire Western intelligence community.

.

Excellent post and hopefully the lessons will be applied in the future.

[i'va biggen]

Originally Posted by bigtex

Nope, I joined!

Were you drafted or did you join?

Or none of the above?

You didn't ask, but I was drafted.

[Guest040616]

Originally Posted by i'va biggen

You didn't ask, but I was drafted.

There is nothing with with being drafted.

Thanks for your service!

[WTF]

Originally Posted by I B Hankering

Saddam already had everything he needed to reconstitute his nuclear program (including the Yellow Cake -- and that is why Joe Wilson's exposé was irrelevant and ignored by the Bush administration -- Saddam had no need to "acquire" Yellow Cake!): 1) Saddam had trained, competent technicians who could reconstitute his stockpile of WMDs. 2) He had the necessary materiel on hand to proceed with such a reconstitution. 3) He had the money to refinance such a reconstitution. 4) He repeatedly stalled and deceived the inspectors. 5) There's no doubt that Saddam intended to reconstitute his WMD program as soon as he could.

Then why was the fuss made about Niger yellowcake?

Wanted to reconstitute and doing so are two totally different things.

We went to war on the assumption he was reconstituting....Bush in a round about way that LL will never admit to said as much.

[WTF]

Originally Posted by lustylad

After Desert Storm, Iraq gave the coalition forces and UN inspectors an inflated accounting of its actual WMD stockpiles. This perpetuated the cat and mouse game of UN inspections for 12 years. We kept looking for VX, nerve gas, and other materials that were not there. Western intelligence was convinced Saddam was hiding the stuff. After all, he declared it, so where the fuck is it? Why would he deliberately maintain a charade that kept UN inspectors on his ass for 12 years and ultimately led to a second US invasion?

After he was captured, Saddam was interrogated by an Arabic-speaking FBI agent of Lebanese descent who gradually gained his confidence. He explained that he couldn't let Iran know the truth about no longer having WMDs. That's why he kept up the charade. He could not afford to look weak in the eyes of Iran or his own people. Admitting weakness is fatal in the Middle East.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/interrog...s-confessions/

This was a huge failure of Western intelligence. To my knowledge nobody at the time figured out it was all a big feint by Saddam (and why). For all the billions of dollars we spend on intelligence we still don't understand the Middle East mindset.

So there you have it - Saddam lied, not Bush. If you want to bash Bush, do it right. Bash him for believing Saddam's lies and for believing the judgment of the entire Western intelligence community.

.

So if you repeat a lie it isn't a lie?

Not only that but we repeated a Niger lie....without doing due diligence.

That is why a bash Bush.