Still don't believe he's a muslim?

[I B Hankering]

Originally Posted by shanm

Taken from the Gallup poll on public opinion.
Do you think that dropping the atomic bombs saved more Japanese lives than would have been lost if the war had continued, or did dropping the bomb COST more Japanese lives?

2005 Jul 25-28
Saved more Japanese lives 41%
Cost more Japanese lives 47%
No opinion 12
1995 Jul 20-23
Saved more Japanese lives 40%
Cost more Japanese lives 45
No opinion 15

I was referring to your erroneous claim in which you suggested that a ground invasion of the Japanese would have cost more lives:



But yes, I'll admit you are correct about public opinion being highly geared towards the thinking that the use of the atomic bombs was justified. But considering that more than half the country believes that the POTUS is a muslim, I wouldn't put too much faith into that. Oh, I forgot that includes you too. (also, 18% of americans still believe that the sun revolves around the earth, that's almost 1 in 5)



Oops. Excuse me. My knowledge of history comes from my high school debate team and the 3 classes I took in college. See unlike you, I decided to major in something actually useful. So excuse me if I made a spelling mistake.

Btw, are you actually a JD or is that for comedic effect (you know, to make us laugh when you say something stupid)? Dear Lord, no wonder the law profession has gone to shit. Did they start handing out JD's on every street corner?



Oh are we back to discussing the real issues now? *sigh* its a shame that your online law degree from Devry University did not come with a common sense course. When I said that they were running out of supplies, I did not mean that they were literally running out of bullets. How about you read the entire paragraph instead of nitpicking one sentence out of a hundred like some ignorant twat.
I said that the U.S had already spent too much on the war as it is and they were stretched to the max. The question was whether or not to continue a costly war, or to end it with an atomic bomb that had cost nearly 2 billion (30 billion today) US dollars. Where is your justification for equating human CIVILIAN lives to the amount of dollars spent on a useless war.



Again you are either confused or just willfully ignorant. I am not talking about your grandpappy private shit-dick forcing the president to drop the bomb. I am talking about the upper echleons of the military. Considering that Major General Leslie Groves was the director of the Manhattan project, and also the entire project was constructed by the U.S army corps of engineers, its safe to assume that the general and those with any real authority knew about the Manhattan project. And you are confusing the secrecy of the project with its conception. The bomb had already been tested a month before Hiroshima in New mexico, and most, if not all, high ranking officials in the military knew about it. Here is a quote for your sidekick I B wanker. This is from general Douglas Macarthur, commander of U.S army forces in the pacific: "My staff was unanimous in believing that Japan was on the point of collapse and surrender." he lamented the use of the bomb after it had been dropped.



The soviets did attack japan, but it was under their own command and not a ground military offensive of the allied powers. I don't know if you have any idea how it works, but if the allied powers had used the Russian alliance to invade japan then all of Japan could have be considered Russian territory. It wouldn't be like the division east-west germany (which the U.S wanted to avoid anyway), because unlike with germany, the U.S had no ground access to Japanese mainland unless through Russia. With the dropping of the atomic bombs, Russia did not venture far enough into Japanese mainland to occupy Japan.

The only real questions were whether or not the U.S was justified in dropping 2 atomic bombs on CIVILIAN cities, AND whether or not that bombing was the cause of Japanese surrender (ignore the fact that it was dropped on civilian cities when it could have easily been dropped on military bases.) So far, you have provided ZERO evidence to support your viewpoint, except for nitpicking sentences and spelling errors that I made while writing something on the shitter. Considering that the U.S strategic bombing survey, the expert authority on the subject, concluded that the atomic bomb DID NOT cause the Japanese surrender, you will excuse me if I don't listen to a rude, ignorant twat parading his fake JD on a hooker forum.

You're a disingenuous jackass citing a modern poll regarding what happened in the 1940s, shamman. Both cities were selected because they were military targets that theretofore had suffered minimal war damage, and you haven't a fucking clue about the nature of Japanese industry during WWII: it was a veritable "cottage industry" where a significant amount of manufacturing was conducted in personal homes -- like the Chinese during Mao's "Great Leap Forward" in the 50s and 60s, shamman. And the A-Bomb did lead to the Japanese surrender, you ignorant jackass, and none of your equivocating, invalid moralistic 20/20 hindsight will change that fact, shamman.

[shanm]

Originally Posted by I B Hankering

And the A-Bomb did lead to the Japanese surrender, you ignorant jackass.

Wow. much proof. very evidence. Wow

[UnderConstruction]

Originally Posted by shanm

Wow. much proof. very evidence. Wow

Exactly. He evidence has, now discussion it be over must. I B spoken has, dumbass especially we are. 'Merica!

[UnderConstruction]

Originally Posted by I B Hankering

You're a disingenuous jackass citing a modern poll regarding what happened in the 1940s, shamman. Both cities were selected because they were military targets that theretofore had suffered minimal war damage, and you haven't a fucking clue about the nature of Japanese industry worked during WWII: it was a veritable "cottage industry" where manufacturing was conducted in personal homes -- like the Chinese during Mao's "Great Leap Forward" in the 50s and 60s, shamman. And the A-Bomb did lead to the Japanese surrender, you ignorant jackass, and none of your equivocating, invalid moralistic 20/20 hindsight will change that fact, shamman.

Because you know better than the military leaders who were involved. Yeah... that's it.

[I B Hankering]

Originally Posted by shanm

Wow. much proof. very evidence. Wow

More substantive evidence than you've proffered, shamman.

"The world will note that the first atomic bomb was dropped on Hiroshima, a military base. That was because we wished in this first attack to avoid, insofar as possible, the killing of civilians." -- Truman, August 9, 1945

Originally Posted by UnderConstruction

Exactly. He evidence has, now discussion it be over must. I B spoken has, dumbass especially we are. 'Merica!

There isn't anything substantive in your blubbering post, you "#Grubered" Odumbo Minion.

Originally Posted by UnderConstruction

Because you know better than the military leaders who were involved. Yeah... that's it.

It was a civilian's decision -- President Truman's -- you "#Grubered" Odumbo Minion, and he and five-star General of the Army Marshall justified it well.

[UnderConstruction]

Originally Posted by I B Hankering

More substantive evidence than you've proffered, shamman.



There isn't anything substantive in your blubbering post, you "#Grubered" Odumbo Minion.



It was a civilian's decision -- President Truman's -- you "#Grubered" Odumbo Minion, and he and five-star General of the Army Marshall justified it well.

Ok

[nevergaveitathought]

what i do know about the end of the war in the pacific theatre is that the bombs most likely saved my father's life and thus here I am

after a slog through the various pacific islands, he was stacked up on Okinawa with a lot of other GI's

part of the coming invasion force

however ugly it is, an atom bomb dropped on your city, war is like that

over 60 million people were killed by WWII- actually estimates range from over 50 million to 85 million

this does not count the many wounded and maimed

foolish people focus on the last acts of the war as if that was the atrocity of all atrocities

the two bombings are estimated to have killed 129,000 people, perhaps as many as 450,000 were in some way afflicted by the bombings

in fact one Japanese man was the only double casualty of the bombings, having been burned in the bombing of Hiroshima, he traveled to his home in Nagasaki only to be exposed to radiation there, he died in 2010.

many more would have been killed should an invasion have had to have been necessary

the Japanese were determined and fanatical

the emperor worship in japan contributed greatly to the fanaticism

likewise the fanatics of islam seems to be our current problem

[I B Hankering]

.

"Tokyo, Kobe, Osaka and Nagoya were also targeted. As each had flourishing cottage industries that fed the factories of each city, LeMay hoped to starve these factories of required parts. He also hoped that the fires that would be started would also destroy the larger factories as well."

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk...s_on_japan.htm

"One final important element of Japanese industry was small-scale, subsistence industry. Prior to 1941, most of the middle class was employed in handcrafts in cottage industries and small workshops, which normally employed fewer than five workers."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industr...%C5%8Dwa_Japan

"... we can propose no technical demonstration likely to bring an end to the war; we see no acceptable alternative to direct military use."

• Arthur H. Compton
• Ernest O. Lawrence
• J. Robert Oppenheimer
• Enrico Fermi

http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB162/19.pdf

[shanm]

Originally Posted by nevergaveitathought

what i do know about the end of the war in the pacific theatre is that the bombs most likely saved my father's life and thus here I am

after a slog through the various pacific islands, he was stacked up on Okinawa with a lot of other GI's

part of the coming invasion force

however ugly it is, an atom bomb dropped on your city, war is like that

over 60 million people were killed by WWII- actually estimates range from over 50 million to 85 million

this does not count the many wounded and maimed

foolish people focus on the last acts of the war as if that was the atrocity of all atrocities

the two bombings are estimated to have killed 129,000 people, perhaps as many as 450,000 were in some way afflicted by the bombings

in fact one Japanese man was the only double casualty of the bombings, having been burned in the bombing of Hiroshima, he traveled to his home in Nagasaki only to be exposed to radiation there, he died in 2010.

many more would have been killed should an invasion have had to have been necessary

the Japanese were determined and fanatical

the emperor worship in japan contributed greatly to the fanaticism

likewise the fanatics of islam seems to be our current problem

Don't you see? That's exactly the reason we need this piece of history as a case study for the future. There is a huge disparity, akin to being a dichotomy, between what the administration tells you and what actually happens. To the majority of Americans, dropping the atomic bomb was apparently an act of necessity to eradicate the relentless Japanese, because that is what the administration told them. In reality, they were a weak, defeated nation, about to give up, on their last leg, that we bombed to (prevention-ally) protect our strategic interests in the east.
Fast forward to the present day, the same is applicable to the middle east situation. In the words of Ben Affleck "ISIS couldn't fill a AA ball park in west virginia" yet we are so worried about them invading and overrunning our nation with less than (liberally stated) 200,000 men. We see it fit to condemn the religion of over 2 billion people on the actions of less than 0.0001%. Never mind that ISIS, Al Qaeda and all these other extremists are singularly the result of a broken foreign policy that has gone on for decades and that has lead the middle east and Muslims especially to feel conspired against. The truth is, this war on terror is entirely political in nature, and has nothing to do with religion. Eating dogs, drinking alcohol, all of these can not be reconciled with the Islamic faith, yet I don't see China and Brazil as targets number 2 and number 3 on ISIL's list. We are so ready to chastise and alienate a quarter of the earth's population (and eradicate them if necessary), without giving a thought to what made them appear in the first place.
I see conservatives giving Obama stick for not calling the ISIS terrorists Islamic. It's either extreme arrogance or blind stupidity for them not to be able to see why. The entire mantra of ISIS is that America is anti-Islam, that we have, for years, taken advantage of them and have been at war with them solely because they believe in Islam. Instead of lauding obama for at least making an effort to change that, we criticize him because we believe that he is part of some underground Muslim brotherhood which is now the leader of the free world(as if that isn't ludicrous enough on its own). Obama said so himself in his speech that he does not refer to ISIS as Islamic to stem their influence and put a dent in their recruitment strategy by claiming that America is anti-Islamic. I don't agree with everything the Obama administration does, but sometimes the stupidity of the conservative side absolutely stumps me. To them, the opposite of bad isn't good, it's conservative(Jon Stewart). It's all the result of a paranoia created by these media organizations with fox news leading the charge.
The U.S has been the number 1 country in the world for some time now. Although it's a huge privilege to have the mantle of leadership, it also affords us several responsibilities. Mainly to care not only about ourselves but the smaller, less-privileged countries we are charged with over-seeing. No, we can't walk into other other countries on the suspicion of WMD's absolutely rape and pillage them, and then walk out claiming oopsies. And then act surprised when a radical religious group tries to exact revenge (Read the back story behing Argo/"Canadian Caper" to understand why Iran is currently the way it is). We are supposed to be the champion of human rights, and advocators for equality, democracy and fairness. Based on that fact alone, any comparisons with other countries like Russia become invalid. Its about high time we stopped just calling ourselves the no.1 country in the world and started acting like it instead.

[UnderConstruction]

Originally Posted by shanm

Don't you see? That's exactly the reason we need this piece of history as a case study for the future. There is a huge disparity, akin to being a dichotomy, between what the administration tells you and what actually happens. To the majority of Americans, dropping the atomic bomb was apparently an act of necessity to eradicate the relentless Japanese, because that is what the administration told them. In reality, they were a weak, defeated nation, about to give up, on their last leg, that we bombed to (prevention-ally) protect our strategic interests in the east.
Fast forward to the present day, the same is applicable to the middle east situation. In the words of Ben Affleck "ISIS couldn't fill a AA ball park in west virginia" yet we are so worried about them invading and overrunning our nation with less than (liberally stated) 200,000 men. We see it fit to condemn the religion of over 2 billion people on the actions of less than 0.0001%. Never mind that ISIS, Al Qaeda and all these other extremists are singularly the result of a broken foreign policy that has gone on for decades and that has lead the middle east and Muslims especially to feel conspired against. The truth is, this war on terror is entirely political in nature, and has nothing to do with religion. Eating dogs, drinking alcohol, all of these can not be reconciled with the Islamic faith, yet I don't see China and Brazil as targets number 2 and number 3 on ISIL's list. We are so ready to chastise and alienate a quarter of the earth's population (and eradicate them if necessary), without giving a thought to what made them appear in the first place.
I see conservatives giving Obama stick for not calling the ISIS terrorists Islamic. It's either extreme arrogance or blind stupidity for them not to be able to see why. The entire mantra of ISIS is that America is anti-Islam, that we have, for years, taken advantage of them and have been at war with them solely because they believe in Islam. Instead of lauding obama for at least making an effort to change that, we criticize him because we believe that he is part of some underground Muslim brotherhood which is now the leader of the free world(as if that isn't ludicrous enough on its own). Obama said so himself in his speech that he does not refer to ISIS as Islamic to stem their influence and put a dent in their recruitment strategy by claiming that America is anti-Islamic. I don't agree with everything the Obama administration does, but sometimes the stupidity of the conservative side absolutely stumps me. To them, the opposite of bad isn't good, it's conservative(Jon Stewart). It's all the result of a paranoia created by these media organizations with fox news leading the charge.
The U.S has been the number 1 country in the world for some time now. Although it's a huge privilege to have the mantle of leadership, it also affords us several responsibilities. Mainly to care not only about ourselves but the smaller, less-privileged countries we are charged with over-seeing. No, we can't walk into other other countries on the suspicion of WMD's absolutely rape and pillage them, and then walk out claiming oopsies. And then act surprised when a radical religious group tries to exact revenge (Read the back story behing Argo/"Canadian Caper" to understand why Iran is currently the way it is). We are supposed to be the champion of human rights, and advocators for equality, democracy and fairness. Based on that fact alone, any comparisons with other countries like Russia become invalid. Its about high time we stopped just calling ourselves the no.1 country in the world and started acting like it instead.

This is so right on but unfortunately the mouthbreathers won't get it or they'll call you a coward or question your patriotism. Our supreme arrogance is one of our ugliest qualities as a country. We've been shitting on the middle east for decades and now we are surprised at what is happening.

[shanm]

Originally Posted by nevergaveitathought

foolish people focus on the last acts of the war as if that was the atrocity of all atrocities

the two bombings are estimated to have killed 129,000 people, perhaps as many as 450,000 were in some way afflicted by the bombings

The main distinction, and sometimes the only distinction, between an act of war and a war crime is the deliberate targeting of innocent civilians. Never mind the millions that died in war or the millions that were injured; they signed up for war, they knew what the risks were. But to target innocent people; Seniors, women and children? now that fits snugly into the category of war crime. Not lest, coming from America, who then later tried and acquitted Germany for similar acts. No way in the world would you be humming the same tune, if the situation was reversed and Germany had dropped atomic bombs on NYC and/or Washington.

[shanm]

Originally Posted by UnderConstruction

This is so right on but unfortunately the mouthbreathers won't get it or they'll call you a coward or question your patriotism. Our supreme arrogance is one of our ugliest qualities as a country. We've been shitting on the middle east for decades and now we are surprised at what is happening.

True. Fortunately, there might still be hope in those that are less blinded by political dogma and/or religious canon.

[UnderConstruction]

Originally Posted by shanm

True. Fortunately, there might still be hope in those that are less blinded by political dogma and/or religious canon.

Religion plays a huge role in it as well. Forsaking this life for some pretend life to come where you get to see all your dead relatives (christianity) or virgins (islam) only leads to the lack of respect for human life since they believe this is all just a way station on the way to eternity. I'm hopeful that some day we will evolve past the need for religion and regard it for what it is; fairytales.

[shanm]

Originally Posted by UnderConstruction

Religion plays a huge role in it as well. Forsaking this life for some pretend life to come where you get to see all your dead relatives (christianity) or virgins (islam) only leads to the lack of respect for human life since they believe this is all just a way station on the way to eternity. I'm hopeful that some day we will evolve past the need for religion and regard it for what it is; fairytales.

Couldn't have put it better myself. It just irks me when these Christian religious nuts think that they are any better than those Islamic Jihadists.

[I B Hankering]

Originally Posted by shanm

Don't you see? That's exactly the reason we need this piece of history as a case study for the future. There is a huge disparity, akin to being a dichotomy, between what the administration tells you and what actually happens. To the majority of Americans, dropping the atomic bomb was apparently an act of necessity to eradicate the relentless Japanese, because that is what the administration told them. In reality, they were a weak, defeated nation, about to give up, on their last leg, that we bombed to (prevention-ally) protect our strategic interests in the east.
Fast forward to the present day, the same is applicable to the middle east situation. In the words of Ben Affleck "ISIS couldn't fill a AA ball park in west virginia" yet we are so worried about them invading and overrunning our nation with less than (liberally stated) 200,000 men. We see it fit to condemn the religion of over 2 billion people on the actions of less than 0.0001%. Never mind that ISIS, Al Qaeda and all these other extremists are singularly the result of a broken foreign policy that has gone on for decades and that has lead the middle east and Muslims especially to feel conspired against. The truth is, this war on terror is entirely political in nature, and has nothing to do with religion. Eating dogs, drinking alcohol, all of these can not be reconciled with the Islamic faith, yet I don't see China and Brazil as targets number 2 and number 3 on ISIL's list. We are so ready to chastise and alienate a quarter of the earth's population (and eradicate them if necessary), without giving a thought to what made them appear in the first place.
I see conservatives giving Obama stick for not calling the ISIS terrorists Islamic. It's either extreme arrogance or blind stupidity for them not to be able to see why. The entire mantra of ISIS is that America is anti-Islam, that we have, for years, taken advantage of them and have been at war with them solely because they believe in Islam. Instead of lauding obama for at least making an effort to change that, we criticize him because we believe that he is part of some underground Muslim brotherhood which is now the leader of the free world(as if that isn't ludicrous enough on its own). Obama said so himself in his speech that he does not refer to ISIS as Islamic to stem their influence and put a dent in their recruitment strategy by claiming that America is anti-Islamic. I don't agree with everything the Obama administration does, but sometimes the stupidity of the conservative side absolutely stumps me. To them, the opposite of bad isn't good, it's conservative(Jon Stewart). It's all the result of a paranoia created by these media organizations with fox news leading the charge.
The U.S has been the number 1 country in the world for some time now. Although it's a huge privilege to have the mantle of leadership, it also affords us several responsibilities. Mainly to care not only about ourselves but the smaller, less-privileged countries we are charged with over-seeing. No, we can't walk into other other countries on the suspicion of WMD's absolutely rape and pillage them, and then walk out claiming oopsies. And then act surprised when a radical religious group tries to exact revenge (Read the back story behing Argo/"Canadian Caper" to understand why Iran is currently the way it is). We are supposed to be the champion of human rights, and advocators for equality, democracy and fairness. Based on that fact alone, any comparisons with other countries like Russia become invalid. Its about high time we stopped just calling ourselves the no.1 country in the world and started acting like it instead.

You're not dealing with reality, shamman.

"We thought the Japanese would never surrender. Many refused to believe it. Sitting in stunned silence, we remembered our dead. So many dead. So many maimed. So many bright futures consigned to the ashes of the past. So many dreams lost in the madness that had engulfed us. Except for a few widely scattered shouts of joy, the survivors of the abyss sat hollow-eyed and silent, trying to comprehend a world without war." E.B. Sledge, With the Old Breed: At Peleliu and Okinawa.

Originally Posted by UnderConstruction

This is so right on but unfortunately the mouthbreathers won't get it or they'll call you a coward or question your patriotism. Our supreme arrogance is one of our ugliest qualities as a country. We've been shitting on the middle east for decades and now we are surprised at what is happening.

You and shamman do not live in the real world, you "#Grubered" Odumbo Minion, and you're brain damaged from sucking down too much lib-retard Kool Aid, you "#Grubered" Odumbo Minion.

Originally Posted by shanm

The main distinction, and sometimes the only distinction, between an act of war and a war crime is the deliberate targeting of innocent civilians. Never mind the millions that died in war or the millions that were injured; they signed up for war, they knew what the risks were. But to target innocent people; Seniors, women and children? now that fits snugly into the category of war crime. Not lest, coming from America, who then later tried and acquitted Germany for similar acts. No way in the world would you be humming the same tune, if the situation was reversed and Germany had dropped atomic bombs on NYC and/or Washington.

You're a fucking hypocrite sitting in the comfort of your favorite chair typing on a keyboard while existing completely and stupidly oblivious to the fact that civilians were going to die either way, you ignorant, hypocritical jackass. Examine the reality that was Okinawa, shamman. "More than 100,000 Okinawan civilians perish, with over 72,000 American and 100,000 Japanese casualties." In August, 1945, the U.S. was still suffering 7,000 casualties per week in the Pacific, shamman, and yet you have the audacity to stupidly argue that it's an atrocity to bring an end to continuing atrocities. You're an atrocious, fucking moron, shamman.

Originally Posted by shanm

True. Fortunately, there might still be hope in those that are less blinded by political dogma and/or religious canon.

You're the deluded jackass that took three history classes and term yourself an "expert", shamman.

Originally Posted by UnderConstruction

Religion plays a huge role in it as well. Forsaking this life for some pretend life to come where you get to see all your dead relatives (christianity) or virgins (islam) only leads to the lack of respect for human life since they believe this is all just a way station on the way to eternity. I'm hopeful that some day we will evolve past the need for religion and regard it for what it is; fairytales.

Only in your rampantly delusional mind are facts, statistics, history books and memoirs "fairy tales", you "#Grubered" Odumbo Minion.

Originally Posted by shanm

Couldn't have put it better myself. It just irks me when these Christian religious nuts think that they are any better than those Islamic Jihadists.

Yet you and the "#Grubered" Odumbo Minion pretentiously and wrongly imagine you're better than those who advocate Christianity, shamman.