Soap Box Rambling

[KCQuestor]

Originally Posted by JRLawrence

Well, we all know that you indeed to be respectful when you say equal. I was trained in science and math and equal from a math standpoint, where the term came from, means that two things are exactly the same.

I'm going to disagree with this definition. Equal, even in math, does not mean "exactly the same". Equal means "having the same value."

Let's say that 2x=6, and therefore x=3. In the equation, x is not the same thing as 3. They are clearly different. One is a number, while the other is a variable represented by a letter. They have the same value, but they are not identical.

That's the same thing that sociologists mean when they say men and women are equal. They may have differences, but they have the same value -- in theory anyway. Some people see women as less than men, but in an ideal world, they are equal.

[BigMikeinKC]

Originally Posted by bigryan222

I hate to say it this way but I have always viewed comments implying that men should treat women to a higher standard than men to be disrespectful towards women. They should be treated as equals because thats what they are. Obviously men and women are different in many ways, but where the may be more vulnerable in one area they are much stronger in others.

One thing I have learned about women is that, most not all, want to be treated as equals, but also want to treated as a lady.

Do you open doors for men, do you open their coats, do you hold their chairs? The list goes on and on...

How many guys talk the same way when a woman is present as they do when hanging out with their buddies?

Now, in the hobby we do role play, but outside the role play you can treat a women as a lady or you can treat her as a slut. How you treat her is a reflection of how you view yourself.

[JRLawrence]

Originally Posted by KCQuestor

I'm going to disagree with this definition. Equal, even in math, does not mean "exactly the same". Equal means "having the same value."

Let's say that 2x=6, and therefore x=3. In the equation, x is not the same thing as 3. They are clearly different. One is a number, while the other is a variable represented by a letter. They have the same value, but they are not identical.

That's the same thing that sociologists mean when they say men and women are equal. They may have differences, but they have the same value -- in theory anyway. Some people see women as less than men, but in an ideal world, they are equal.

The word equivalent comes to mind. If you have two triangles (from geometry) that have the same angles, one being larger in size than the other, they look the same. Because one is larger they are not, by definition, equal. The are equivalent.

When we say, you know what I mean; we get in trouble trying to express our meaning. The greeks had many definitions for the word love; in the english language we have one word to express many things.

Is this important? Not to many people in everyday life. It is when we want to understand what we are saying, and how we say it.

I can go on for a long time on this subject because it was an assigned topic for me to present to the science majors for a college seminar. When my major professor handed me the subject my reaction was: oh, boy this is a big nothing.

But, over the years, when I think about the words we pick, or read, it illustrates how others try to influence how we react to the message they are trying to cram down our throats.

I remember when the word equal started to be used more often for women and men: it was when the equal rights amendment was being pushed for passage by congress. The word was propaganda, and still is.

Men and women are not equal, and never will be. Think about the word itself, not what you want it to be.

Most guys appreciate, respect, love, crave, want, desire all women: thank you very much. I am glad they are different. This world would be a less happy place if they were the same as men.



JR

[Thequeen]

Originally Posted by KCQuestor

I'm going to disagree with this definition. Equal, even in math, does not mean "exactly the same". Equal means "having the same value."

Let's say that 2x=6, and therefore x=3. In the equation, x is not the same thing as 3. They are clearly different. One is a number, while the other is a variable represented by a letter. They have the same value, but they are not identical.

That's the same thing that sociologists mean when they say men and women are equal. They may have differences, but they have the same value -- in theory anyway. Some people see women as less than men, but in an ideal world, they are equal.

And here I thought I would never have to see 2x=6 again.. I guess it's a good thing I paid attention in math and know how to solve this.. lol I didn't think I would ever use it in real life!!!

[KCQuestor]

Originally Posted by JRLawrence

Men and women are not equal, and never will be. Think about the word itself, not what you want it to be.

I use the word equal as it is defined as well as its common use, and I use it to compare men to women (in general, as a class). I have no problem saying what I mean. Men and women are equal. They have the same value. They should have equal rights.

Men and women are not identical.
Men and women are equal (in my opinion -- I am well aware that many people think of women as less than men).

[JayceeRivers]

Originally Posted by KCQuestor

Let's say that 2x=6, and therefore x=3. In the equation, x is not the same thing as 3. They are clearly different. One is a number, while the other is a variable represented by a letter. They have the same value, but they are not identical.

Beautifully said. Articulate and, I thought, very accurate.

In regards to the original poster. I applaud the respect you show and express for the women in the adult industry. It borders on a rarity.

To those that feel this gentleman is being used and falling into the line of one or many manipulating women....

One has but to go through these forums alone to gather enough information to support the theory. In fact one can see many bordering abusive statements in regards to the women of this industry. Bare in mind that the ladies of this industry get judged by all angles. From within and without. Social media, society stigmatism, family, friends, and often even our own selves. It only serves to damage the situation further for those that choose to support the occupation and yet not the women within it.

I fully believe this is how the disrespectful and often manipulative providers are born. A cycle. The tainted client is abusive and disrespectful to the new and starry eyed provider, she becomes a tainted angry woman. As such she lies steals and manipulates. She meets a new starry eyed client and taints his perceptions destroying his generosity and kindness with a single act of thievery or manipulation. He becomes a tainted client.... So on so forth.

I fully agree. Respect, as all other things, is a two way road. The ladies SHOULD respect those that support her business and her person. Just as the gentleman SHOULD respect those that are willing to provide a physical/mental/emotional retreat or fantasy.

[growler]

+1...............articulately stated Jaycee.

Originally Posted by JayceeRivers

Beautifully said. Articulate and, I thought, very accurate.

In regards to the original poster. I applaud the respect you show and express for the women in the adult industry. It borders on a rarity.

To those that feel this gentleman is being used and falling into the line of one or many manipulating women....

One has but to go through these forums alone to gather enough information to support the theory. In fact one can see many bordering abusive statements in regards to the women of this industry. Bare in mind that the ladies of this industry get judged by all angles. From within and without. Social media, society stigmatism, family, friends, and often even our own selves. It only serves to damage the situation further for those that choose to support the occupation and yet not the women within it.

I fully believe this is how the disrespectful and often manipulative providers are born. A cycle. The tainted client is abusive and disrespectful to the new and starry eyed provider, she becomes a tainted angry woman. As such she lies steals and manipulates. She meets a new starry eyed client and taints his perceptions destroying his generosity and kindness with a single act of thievery or manipulation. He becomes a tainted client.... So on so forth.

I fully agree. Respect, as all other things, is a two way road. The ladies SHOULD respect those that support her business and her person. Just as the gentleman SHOULD respect those that are willing to provide a physical/mental/emotional retreat or fantasy.

[algrace]

Wait just a minute...has ECCIE been misconstrued as a dating site?


Equality and all, the man pays for the date. We should all agree on that, at least.

Exceptions aside, both women and men deserve respect. Ladies deserve the utmost.
Our personal definitions of exceptions and ladies make the difference.

[CaptainKaos]

Originally Posted by Saintliest

When a provider or dancer shares with me details of their life, yeah I tend to believe what they tell me simply because I can tell the difference between being closed off, or forthcoming both in the voice and body language. Take what I say...or don't. BTW, kinda reads like a little defensiveness from some of you, IMHO.

You're entitled to your point of view, but here's a different one that came from a stripper that I think is more accurate. This is a job, buddy. Yes, you should treat the women with dignity and respect. Because when you respect them, you really understand that you're paying for a service and she's performing the service for money. It's not bd or shameful.It's a good thing, actually. But when guys like you come on here and start preaching about respect, it seems very manipulative rather than altruistic.

I’m positive this strategy is written in a handbook for men trying to have free sex with strippers, because frequently, I’d have men offer to give me money “just to talk.”

The idea, I gather, is the stripper will be so flattered the man sees her as anything other than a sexual object, she’ll let her guard down and forget she’s a set of hired tits and become temporarily human again. This lapse in game can cause the stripper to become vulnerable. Then, the man will be able to take her home with him as a reward for being such a great guy that he was able to see past her stripper persona to the real girl underneath. Fucking diabolical.

This strategy only works out on the floor, not in the VIP, and only on newbie dancers. The rest of us will simply pretend to believe you really like us, take your money, talk for half an hour, and then leave you to go hustle up more dances.

Guys, this is what we do for money. With amateur status, you simply can’t compete.

[Tiffani Jameson]

I think that the OP has been misheard.

What I think he's come to the realization of is that there are a lot of broken women in this industry. Most are young, misguided, and have preconceived notions (like some gents) that they're here to be disrespected, so they don't know what's expected of them attitude-wise. We don't know and don't care what brings them to the decision to be here. And every interaction with men, both positive and negative, shapes how they feel about men in general.

Yes, they put themselves out there for the money. But the point he's trying to make is the more of an asshole you are to these women, you contribute to her pain, and could make them more jaded in the long run. And I'm not saying that there aren't girls who don't see you as nothing more than dollar signs, but again it's a two way street. You have the ability to not schedule with those women, that's if you don't like that sort of thing.

To not ask for a discount on top of a special when she's probably at her lowest point, knowing that she's probably going to be busier than she can stand to be to achieve her goal could stress her out so much she can't hide it, let alone create an illusion of passion. One liner emails and texts that don't include screening information, being rude when you didn't contact her with the civility due to a dog could contribute to not getting a response back to your requests for appointments.

There are really simple things you can do to be polite and respectful that changes a woman's perspective on being a companion. No one's asking you to be a chatty Cathy, and seeing her as more than a commodity (for some of you) would probably take the fantasy out of the whole deal. But unless you have some agenda to show ladies 'that's what you get for being a hooker', some gents could stand to do better.

But I agree that it's a two way street. If you don't respect yourself, no one will. And any woman that struggles with finding that sex work is not respectable work should do what it takes to make it so. You do NOT have to change who you are as a woman to make it. But the idea is to find out who you are as a woman, what you need to feel whole, and stand for that.

Great topic!

[Johnny4455]

Originally Posted by Tiffani Jameson

I think that the OP has been misheard.

What I think he's come to the realization of is that there are a lot of broken women in this industry. Most are young, misguided, and have preconceived notions (like some gents) that they're here to be disrespected, so they don't know what's expected of them attitude-wise. We don't know and don't care what brings them to the decision to be here. And every interaction with men, both positive and negative, shapes how they feel about men in general.

Yes, they put themselves out there for the money. But the point he's trying to make is the more of an asshole you are to these women, you contribute to her pain, and could make them more jaded in the long run. And I'm not saying that there aren't girls who don't see you as nothing more than dollar signs, but again it's a two way street. You have the ability to not schedule with those women, that's if you don't like that sort of thing.

To not ask for a discount on top of a special when she's probably at her lowest point, knowing that she's probably going to be busier than she can stand to be to achieve her goal could stress her out so much she can't hide it, let alone create an illusion of passion. One liner emails and texts that don't include screening information, being rude when you didn't contact her with the civility due to a dog could contribute to not getting a response back to your requests for appointments.

There are really simple things you can do to be polite and respectful that changes a woman's perspective on being a companion. No one's asking you to be a chatty Cathy, and seeing her as more than a commodity (for some of you) would probably take the fantasy out of the whole deal. But unless you have some agenda to show ladies 'that's what you get for being a hooker', some gents could stand to do better.

But I agree that it's a two way street. If you don't respect yourself, no one will. And any woman that struggles with finding that sex work is not respectable work should do what it takes to make it so. You do NOT have to change who you are as a woman to make it. But the idea is to find out who you are as a woman, what you need to feel whole, and stand for that.

Great topic!

Great points. My objection to his post is that he seemed to lump all men (except himself) in the same disrespecting boat. I've been hobbying for awhile and know a number of men here who have been hobbying, and some of us always show respect for the provider. There are horrible disrespectful hobbyist out there. Trying to bargain, and worse. There are horrible providers out there who steal, lie, etc. I like to think that most of us, particularly in the eccie community are on the good side of this... So I did get a little offended by the op lumping all men except for himself in the bad category. That's bs.

[Wizard of Ahhhhs]

Originally Posted by Johnny4455

...So I did get a little offended by the op lumping all men except for himself in the bad category. That's bs.

Who's to say the OP is really a male in the first place...

[Saintliest]

<---<< Can assure you that he was born, raised, and identifies himself as a man.

[Tiffani Jameson]

Originally Posted by Johnny4455

Great points. My objection to his post is that he seemed to lump all men (except himself) in the same disrespecting boat. I've been hobbying for awhile and know a number of men here who have been hobbying, and some of us always show respect for the provider. There are horrible disrespectful hobbyist out there. Trying to bargain, and worse. There are horrible providers out there who steal, lie, etc. I like to think that most of us, particularly in the eccie community are on the good side of this... So I did get a little offended by the op lumping all men except for himself in the bad category. That's bs.

Thank you, Johnny!
I think his wording was a little off. 'Respect' wouldn't even be the word I think he meant. What I see in him is that he's taken an interest in understanding what's going on beyond the session, and that he wants you all to be 'sensitive' to the woman behind the provider. I wish more men were.

But I know that you all need different things to even be here. On two opposite ends of a spectrum, some men need to feel absolutely nothing but horny and some like things to lean towards normal human interaction. And for every type of client, there is a provider. There is a psychology behind every Modus Operandi.

For that guy who gets off on this being anonymous, scary, cheap and quick and expects a positive response to a 'you available now?' text, think about the woman who would respond in kind. She is desperate. She is either unaware, incapable (due to coercion), or doesn't care that she could/should screen for safety. You would never screw a desperate unpredictable woman with low self esteem in real life, would you?
Wait. Don't answer that. LOL

[Saintliest]

Something I forgot to mention that may weigh a little more to my argument is this. I grew up with more than a few ladies who ended up dancing for awhile. Many of them have since given it up, and only one of them do I suspect is now an escort....and she's fucking hot let me tell you. Only a few of these ladies I am not friends with on Facebook, and though they've had their struggles for one reason or another, I don't see that as effecting or affecting their lives today...save for one. But then, we ALL have problems as well. I also am 99.9% sure that a friend of a friend escorted for awhile in large city to the East of KC. She was an established model growing up, and I think she needed fast cash for college, so she lived away for a couple months and shacked up with a guy who had a Penthouse Apt downtown. Being 18, I found it a little strange that she had connections in a city a good distance and a different accent away. I know a few of these ladies took a few guys for an emotional ride and refused to settle down, but most of them just saw a way to get good money to stave off the issues at home. And, I know one of these ladies ended up driving a convertible BMW, brand new off the lot paid for, top down and hair blowing in the wind all the way home.

So yeah, knowing the pasts of these ladies...It upsets me greatly when I hear or see a guy being a douche to a woman. Bottom line, don't eat a bowl of Douchenberry Bunch Cereal before you visit with them.