Lives of Quiet Desperation

[Guest121613]

I think if one a takes a closer look and intimacy, lacking intimacy in a marriage, i think more often than not, it is when a marriage lacks the emotional connection. The emotional connection comes in listening and respecting each other interests, aspirations, and even to daily drudgery of life, and how a married couple talks to each other.

In some case, when the emotional connection is lost, sex still exists, and in others cases, the sex life ceases. There is a loss of the "love language" in how a married couple talks to each other. If one was to ask my wife, she would say I am not fun anymore. I say she is a bitch. I tried for many years to make a better marriage, and have given up, in realizing my wife is a control freak, and it manifests in constant criticism. We still have sex. But I have decided to take/share my affection else where.

In this journey, I have had some great adventures, and also have had some great sex. My life has become more enriched.

Staying married may be one of convenience, or practicality, but also at the core is a promise "till death do us part". I was sharing with one provider, a promise was never made "I only love u", or "I will never love another", in which I am speaking of intimacy. I know with providers, it is not real love, but there is affection, displayed in the sex, and in the conversation.

I have also said, a wife could learn a lot from a provider, not that we want easy sex, but how to talk the love language.

[Poet Laureate]

Lots of interesting issues here, and I could give personal perspective on more than one, but I'll stick to the one I think I can best explain, the obsessive, clingy client:

I've been that guy. Not so much any more, but recently enough. The problem is this: some of you ladies are just too good at what you do, and when you couple that with a client whose SO has been saying no for too long, and whose need goes beyond the physical to the emotional, it's a recipe for disaster. All of a sudden a man with a chasm the size of the grand canyon has access to a woman who is saying yes to him whenever he has the funds to see her, and who seems to genuinely care about him. He finds it easy to rationalize in his mind that he's special, because after all, who among us doesn't want to feel special? Deep down he knows he's just another client, but he ignores that as long as he can. This is because he has that desperate need to be cared for, a need that his SO is not meeting. In these situations the sex truly is secondary. I've had mind-blowing Omigod sex with providers I only saw once. I've had run-of-the-mill sex with a provider I saw half a dozen times. The difference was that the lady I saw many times always acted like she wanted to be there. Not the IOP, but the illusion of caring. That's why I don't really give a damn whether it's a CBJ or BBBJ, whether it's mish or CG, whether I last five minutes or thirty. What I care about is the emotional intimacy, which is why kissing is so important to some of us. It's too easy to detach yourself from the act of sex, but it's much harder to detach from a prolonged, deep kiss.

Then there's Pretty Woman Syndrome, the deeply hidden, rarely talked about pipe dream that some hobbyists have. It revolves around finding a provider who decides she wants to give up the life, find one man to be with, and chooses you. Of course it's a fantasy. Of course it's not going to happen, and even if it did, it wouldn't be with me. But it's still out there as a possibility, because every once in a while it does happen.

So I see a lady, and I know there will be sex. I know there will be oral sex, which rarely happened in my twenty year marriage. I know I won't be nagged, I know she won't act as though she's doing me a favor, or only being with me because she feels guilty about all the times she's said no recently. I know she's going to pay attention to me, my feelings, my desires, my needs. She's going to pay attention to me! She's going to say yes to pretty much whatever I ask her to do (because I've read her reviews and know what not to ask). And some ladies wonder why some men get clingy, or obsess? My question is not why some do; it's why more men don't.

But we eventually figure it out. Sometimes with help, sometimes on our own, but either way it gets figured out. The desperation to find someone who cares gives way to a realization that we're looking for something in the hobby that it just isn't designed to give. We quit deluding ourselves, and learn to just enjoy the providers for what they are.

Like I said, I used to be that guy, and if you think me posting this isn't going to cause a shitload of problems for me, think again. But I think it's important enough that I'll take the heat, because I know there are other hobbyists out there in the same boat I was in, only they don't realize it, and they haven't yet gotten to the point where a provider or another hobbyist has enlightened them. I only hope for their sake that when it's done, it's done privately, gently, and with compassion.

[London Rayne]

Your post is exactly why I approach this business the way I do, and don't allow the signals to get crossed. You are correct....too many women actually allow a client to believe she really LOVES them, and then onto the next envelope. Ask to see her without paying a dime, and see what she says. That always brings reality back into the equation. This is not comparable to a husband paying the bills whilst the wife is at home...this is a BUSINESS built on pay for play. If I were married to a man who lost his job or "stopped paying the bills" I would still be with him...not the same thing here, as I would not continue to fk a client who did not have my fee. Would I still talk to him if he needed someone? Sure, but that's it.

You say you stay with your wife because you made a promise of "Til death do us part" but did you not also promise to be faithful and not lie? I am not judging you, but just pointing out how you are honoring one promise and flaking on another.

@ Bojulay...thanks for keeping it REAL! I have a sad story too, but I don't really use that to excuse my choices or behavior...wanna hear it lol.

[proudoftexas]

Originally Posted by bojulay

Nah, guys just buy into beer commercials, movies, and half witted
TV sitcoms.

When I'm with a girl in a relationship, I don't cheat on
her with anyone.

That genetic impulse story is just a convenient excuse.

Newsflash to all you women out there----A lot of guys
are just dumber than a box of rocks.

Actually, based on this post, I'd say you're the one dumber than a box of rocks. I've never cheated on anyone, either, but I sure as hell look all the time, and I'm constantly tempted. I just don't cross the line. The 'No' comes before the no. When I'm in a relationship, I don't fuck other women, but I also don't stroke their skin, hug them inappropriately, kiss them, get in a quiet room alone with them, or even carry on conversations as 'friends' which share part of myself I don't feel comfortable in sharing with my partner.

So what? I'm still genetically driven to fuck as many women as possible through a million years of evolution.

You so cavalierly dismissing it is either deliberately casting a blind eye to the world around you, being grossly obtuse, or lying for some kind of perceived benefit.

The very hobby industry is anecdotal evidence of a genetic impulse. Even the few men who make a living serving clientele mostly do it to serve other men, not women. Women do not have the same genetic need to fuck as many partners as possible that men do. What they do have is a genetic need to find the best provider, or the best gene pool from which to draw, and that's true whether they get impregnated or not.

It's not that it can't be overcome. There's all kinds of genetic impulses we're able to overcome to be a part of society. But to ignore that it exists involves acting ignorant. However, using it as an excuse for shitty behavior --- "I can't help myself from fucking as many women as possible! Blame my 'Y' chromosome!" --- is just as ignorant.

[London Rayne]

I don't think he is dismissing the urges in men, but that it is NOT a justification for actions. Since I was 11, boys have been saying they will DIE without sex to manipulate women into fkin them...it's bogus. If it were truly an urge that NONE of you could control, ALL men would cheat, and that's far from the case.

Regardless of the strong temptation to do things, some people have self control and others choose to act on every impulse. That has always been the case with sex, drugs, alcohol, eating, and even love. Each of us is tempted by certain things, whilst the other has a totally different set of urges that may not bother that group.

I am never tempted to go out and rob a bank, but for many, that urge can be played on. I don't think this thread is about temptation though, but more about men who are living sad lives, and turn to providers. Many other men living the same sad lives, turn to Jesus or whatever other outlet they find soothing.

[proudoftexas]

I love this post, Poet Laureate. It saddens me you feel like there will be repercussions for making it. I don't doubt you (although I don't really understand what you mean by that). I just wish it wasn't true.

One of the things I find interesting is this overall cultural identity with how special everyone is who chooses to participate in the hobby. It's like being at the Alamo, where Colonel Travis draws a line in the sand, and only those who are willing to cross the line end up being defenders to their death.

I'm not saying it's not true. There is a specialness involved in choosing to participate in an illegal activity which involves physical intimacy, and extreme vulnerability on emotional, financial, professional, familial, and societal levels.

But it's not like this dynamic doesn't exist all over the place. Get involved in a group of skydivers, or marathon runners, or hedge traders, or drug users, or wildcatters, or special forces, or crafters, or D&D eventers, or ANYTHING which involves making a conscious decision to step away from the rest of your peer group, to become an outlier. They ALL feel like they're a part of a special subculture. Hell, one of the magical things about the internet is that no matter how out there the subculture you've identified yourself with, it's virtually certain there are other people who share it with you.

And the more we invest in this activity, the more bonded we are with other people who make the same decision, and the less we're able to share of ourselves with anyone outside of that activity.

That's how it works. For very personal reasons, those of us in this forum have made the choice to cross that line, whether as a provider or as a client, and that bell can never be unrung. Like the joke goes, once you suck one cock, you're always known as a cocksucker. Same goes with being a provider or a hobbyist, even if it's only internal, and no one else in the "civilian world" knows about it.

Some of the complications of this stuff are very unique. But some of them are challenges plenty of other industries/hobbies/occupations face.

The first occupation I always think about with a similar challenge to the hobby, is psychological therapy.

The difference is that counselors at all levels go through a great deal of training, whereas there's no such thing as a Provider University (although I would found one if it was feasible!).

Counseling training talks about the difference between "empathy" and "sympathy", and the importance of distinguishing between the two. Empathy is when you listen with your heart, but you don't emotionally identify with the person. Sympathy is when you start identifying with the person's struggles. A line is crossed, which can lead to an unproductive and emotionally dangerous treatment.

One of the techniques I've read about is 'anchoring', where you anchor one figurative foot in reality. You know who you are, what's important to you, where your values come from, what you go home to, etc.. Then you take your other figurative foot, and take a step into the other person's world.

Frankly, it sounds like it would be pretty fucking complicated in the real world, but there you are.

Other professions like police enforcement, military action, CPS workers, health industry workers (specifically in intensive care, nursing homes, or ambulance services --- places where death is constantly imminent) actors/actresses, spies, folks involved in long sales cycles, and plenty of others, face somewhat similar challenges.

How do you perform a job which is wrought with emotional investment and a variety of moral dilemmas, and then walk away to act around peers who do not go through anything remotely similar?

The biggest difference in all of these and the hobby industry is barrier to entry. In the end, anyone (with very few exceptions) can get involved in the hobby as long as they either have a pussy or they have cash. Which means there's a lot of us who are simply unprepared for the psychological ramifications of the choices we're making.

And while I'm sympathetic to that, I also at least intellectually understand the risks. I also understand why I've made this decision, and the reasons far out weigh the issues I'll have to deal with.

I also know we learn best from our mistakes. Sometimes you just have to fuck it up badly enough, so you know, "Wow. I do not want to go through that again." Sometimes, that decision means leaving the hobby altogether. But sometimes it just means changing our behavior, or mentality in some way, to protect ourselves from making that mistake again.

But while making the mistake and learning from it is the best lesson teacher, the second best lesson teacher is hearing from other people the mistakes they've made, and trying to learn from it.

Which is why I'm so grateful for this forum, others like it, and the ones like ASPD that came before it. There are a lot of folks who have poured their energies into creating a place that newbies can learn from, as well as linking like minded folks into a fruitful relationship for both parties.

In any case, thanks for sharing your perspective, Poet Laureate. I think it's a very important one. I hope other people are able to learn from it.

Originally Posted by Poet Laureate

Lots of interesting issues here, and I could give personal perspective on more than one, but I'll stick to the one I think I can best explain, the obsessive, clingy client:

I've been that guy. Not so much any more, but recently enough. The problem is this: some of you ladies are just too good at what you do, and when you couple that with a client whose SO has been saying no for too long, and whose need goes beyond the physical to the emotional, it's a recipe for disaster. All of a sudden a man with a chasm the size of the grand canyon has access to a woman who is saying yes to him whenever he has the funds to see her, and who seems to genuinely care about him. He finds it easy to rationalize in his mind that he's special, because after all, who among us doesn't want to feel special? Deep down he knows he's just another client, but he ignores that as long as he can. This is because he has that desperate need to be cared for, a need that his SO is not meeting. In these situations the sex truly is secondary. I've had mind-blowing Omigod sex with providers I only saw once. I've had run-of-the-mill sex with a provider I saw half a dozen times. The difference was that the lady I saw many times always acted like she wanted to be there. Not the IOP, but the illusion of caring. That's why I don't really give a damn whether it's a CBJ or BBBJ, whether it's mish or CG, whether I last five minutes or thirty. What I care about is the emotional intimacy, which is why kissing is so important to some of us. It's too easy to detach yourself from the act of sex, but it's much harder to detach from a prolonged, deep kiss.

Then there's Pretty Woman Syndrome, the deeply hidden, rarely talked about pipe dream that some hobbyists have. It revolves around finding a provider who decides she wants to give up the life, find one man to be with, and chooses you. Of course it's a fantasy. Of course it's not going to happen, and even if it did, it wouldn't be with me. But it's still out there as a possibility, because every once in a while it does happen.

So I see a lady, and I know there will be sex. I know there will be oral sex, which rarely happened in my twenty year marriage. I know I won't be nagged, I know she won't act as though she's doing me a favor, or only being with me because she feels guilty about all the times she's said no recently. I know she's going to pay attention to me, my feelings, my desires, my needs. She's going to pay attention to me! She's going to say yes to pretty much whatever I ask her to do (because I've read her reviews and know what not to ask). And some ladies wonder why some men get clingy, or obsess? My question is not why some do; it's why more men don't.

But we eventually figure it out. Sometimes with help, sometimes on our own, but either way it gets figured out. The desperation to find someone who cares gives way to a realization that we're looking for something in the hobby that it just isn't designed to give. We quit deluding ourselves, and learn to just enjoy the providers for what they are.

Like I said, I used to be that guy, and if you think me posting this isn't going to cause a shitload of problems for me, think again. But I think it's important enough that I'll take the heat, because I know there are other hobbyists out there in the same boat I was in, only they don't realize it, and they haven't yet gotten to the point where a provider or another hobbyist has enlightened them. I only hope for their sake that when it's done, it's done privately, gently, and with compassion.

[proudoftexas]

Originally Posted by London Rayne

I don't think he is dismissing the urges in men, but that it is NOT a justification for actions. Since I was 11, boys have been saying they will DIE without sex to manipulate women into fkin them...it's bogus.

Shoot, manipulating women into having sex is as ancient an impulse as women tricking a man to take care of them. It always takes two to tango.

I fucking loathe predators of any stripe. Both sexes have plenty of them. And the personality type is rewarded far too well to be going away any time soon.

The urge in men to fuck women should never be used as an excuse. But it shouldn't be dismissed, either. You're probably right that he wasn't dismissing it, but it obviously set me off, rightly or wrongly.

Regardless of the strong temptation to do things, some people have self control and others choose to act on every impulse. That has always been the case with sex, drugs, alcohol, eating, and even love. Each of us is tempted by certain things, whilst the other has a totally different set of urges that may not bother that group.

I don't think this thread is about temptation though, but more about men who are living sad lives, and turn to providers. Many other men living the same sad lives, turn to Jesus or whatever other outlet they find soothing.

Shit, man. Life is tough. I don't begrudge someone who figures out a way to get through it, as long as they're not hurting the people around them (and of course, there's the rub!). I agree some ways are more destructive than others, and I hope all of us contribute more than we take, but I hate to use a pejorative term like "sad lives" to describe men hiring providers, especially on a forum dedicated to it, lol. Just like I wouldn't ever describe providers as leading "sad lives." I'm grateful you're all here. And ESPECIALLY you, London, because you're incredibly entertaining!

[Guest121613]

ok its a weak justification, but regardless, there is still a level of commitment, I and still hope that after infidelity, we can cultivate an improved relationship, but for now a hunger is being satisfied with a provider, and it not just about seeking a provider for only sex

Originally Posted by London Rayne

You say you stay with your wife because you made a promise of "Til death do us part" but did you not also promise to be faithful and not lie? I am not judging you, but just pointing out how you are honoring one promise and flaking on another.

[London Rayne]

Thanks for the explanation, and I wish you the best, but do realize that not all marriages benefit from infidelity. Many are over because of it. I hope yours will be different, and wish you well.

@ Proudoftexas...the only reason I used the phrase "sad lives" is because the title of this thread is "Lives Of Quiet Desperation." I was not speaking of seeing providers as being the "sad" aspect, but the relationships the men are in that led them here...many have admitted it so.

[mwsatx]

Originally Posted by Poet Laureate

...This is because he has that desperate need to be cared for, a need that his SO is not meeting. In these situations the sex truly is secondary. I've had mind-blowing Omigod sex with providers I only saw once. I've had run-of-the-mill sex with a provider I saw half a dozen times. The difference was that the lady I saw many times always acted like she wanted to be there. Not the IOP, but the illusion of caring. That's why I don't really give a damn whether it's a CBJ or BBBJ, whether it's mish or CG, whether I last five minutes or thirty. What I care about is the emotional intimacy, which is why kissing is so important to some of us. It's too easy to detach yourself from the act of sex, but it's much harder to detach from a prolonged, deep kiss...

Well said PL. I suspect that many of the lurkers out here (myself included) are exactly as you have so eloquently described.

[Guest121613]

It has been discussed many times, but the internet has made pay for play so easy and safe for married man, that is changed the dynamics and offerings of providers, as the search for a hooker does not require risk of puplic eyes.

Providers have responded as any free market situation outside of government control would do, and that is to meet customer requirements.

I am pretty confident I am a good client, and although I am not clingy, but I want a intimate experience, not a wham bam thank you madam experience.

[misspriss]

I have also said, a wife could learn a lot from a provider, not that we want easy sex, but how to talk the love language.

Excuse me kind Sir BUT I'm calling bullshit on this.*

Sorry, I was a wife and the language of love FULL-TIME isn't easy.*

Now, 4-7 hours a week...it's easy. In fact, I'm great at it. Many of my clients are married and they adore me. Why? Because it's my job.

Ever try detailing your own car? Hard work. You may find yourself half-assing it.*BUT if it was your job and you were getting paid? Wow!!*

Everyone has an obligation to do their job to the best of their ability. Make no mistakes, it's a providers job to speak the language of love.*

[Poet Laureate]

Originally Posted by London Rayne

You say you stay with your wife because you made a promise of "Til death do us part" but did you not also promise to be faithful and not lie? I am not judging you, but just pointing out how you are honoring one promise and flaking on another.

I think you're confusing me with someone else. I never mentioned any of this in my post. But for men who are in that situation...as far as I'm concerned, a wife who says no constantly has no one to blame but herself when her man strays, whether it's with a civilian girlfriend or a provider. I left my wife of twenty years at the end of last July. I told her I had not taken a vow of celibacy, and I wanted and needed sex, and that if she wouldn't keep her end of the bargain I would have to divorce her and find a woman who would. I've been called selfish, a pig, and many other names by people who only know that much. When they find out that as of July 29 of last year we had been intimate three times since the prior Christmas, they generally sing a different tune.

[Poet Laureate]

Originally Posted by proudoftexas

I love this post, Poet Laureate. It saddens me you feel like there will be repercussions for making it. I don't doubt you (although I don't really understand what you mean by that). I just wish it wasn't true.

The repercussions I'm worried about are when ladies I've not seen before, during their screening process, look up my posts and see where I come clean about having been that guy. Some of them will choose not to believe that I'm beyond that particular affliction, so it'll be tougher for me to book with new ladies.

[cny6969]

This post may be picked apart but I think that I have a personal perspective on this subject.

I have basically had two periods of very active hobbying followed by a feeling of guilt and then taking a break from it. The first period of active hobbying was 6 or 7 years ago and then I took a break until last summer when I jumped back into the lifestyle again. My last "date" was a month ago as I wanted a goodbye date with my ATF before taking what hopefully will be a permanent break from the hobby......Yes I am still lurking and posting on eccie as that is a habit that is hard to break.

The home life with my wife had become very slow over the years both in terms of sex and intimacy and affection in general. There were multiple years when we didn't have sex more than four times a year.

Finally I ended up turning to providers to replace what I was missing at home. With the more recent period of hobbying I was looking as much for the feeling of intimacy as the actual sex. I was looking to replace what was missing at home.

But eventually I started to feel guilty about what I was doing and wanted to concentrate on trying to improve things at home instead. The reality was I never fell out of love with my wife but we had grown apart. The foundation was still solid but we both needed to do more to build something on it again.

Without going into too many details over the past couple of months we have both put in a genuine effort to change our attitudes and behaviors and things have changed tremendously.

Guys when you think about it, it is easy to get into a rut after being married for a number of years where we stop being supportive and helpful to our wives. But yet we still expect our wives to feel romantic anytime we are in the mood. At the same time too many wives stop understanding our needs sexually and for intimacy. It is a two way street and both sides need to put a real effort in to satisfy all of the needs of the other.

I know that it has only been a couple of months since we really started putting a real effort into improving out marriage but I can happily say the the sex lately has never been better and the friendship is back again as well.