Moscow and Putin truly control Trump and Vance.

[1blackman1]

So because Putin will resort to desperation that is reason for the US to back down? Terrible logic. I’d hate for you to have been making policy in the 1930s, kinda remind me of another person that believes in appeasement. The war has started and the Ukrainians did all that any country would be expected to do. Their leaders have stood together and their people have sacrificed blood in ways on few Americans alive today could understand. Allowing Putin a victory in Ukraine betrays everything we’ve fought for since WW2. Helping Ukraine repel Russia sends a signal to Russia and China. Appeasement sends one as well, a bad one. Tiny, you may be a dove, but even you have to know that this is a win at all cost situation. As the Ukrainians say so intelligently “if Russia stops fighting there will be no more war, if Ukraine stops fighting there will be no more Ukraine”.

If Trump wasn’t a pussy and scared to stand up to Putin, the only answer would be “go home and well lift sanctions and normalize relations.” He’d also establish with him that his expansionist dreams are over. Putin has no real option but to accept those terms and if he doesn’t we will provide the Ukrainians everything possible even offensive weapons turning them into the neighbor they claim they were afraid of anyway. And the use of nukes in any way would be the red line.

Putin is a lot of things but dumb isn’t one of them. We can isolate Russia in a way that would make them a third world country. We’ve chose not to do so in hopes of a working solution. But that would be the threat I’d hold over their head. Close them off from every market and sink or confiscate their shadow shipping. We’ve actually played nice with Russia to this point.

[Tiny]

Hey Blackman, the USA historically hasn't been shy about invading countries without reason. The last one was Iraq. The total death toll from U.S. post 9/11 wars, direct and indirect, totaled over 4.5 million.

https://www.google.com/search?q=how+...hrome&ie=UTF-8

Isolating Cuba, Iran and Venezuela didn't work. It won't work in Russia either. How well have sanctions worked so far? Russian GDP at the end of 2023 was up 4.9% YoY, and as of the latest reported date, September, 2024, it was up 3.1% YoY.

This is not a win-at-all-cost situation for the USA, or Europe. Putin's not an idiot, as you say. I don't believe he's going to try something like this again, in a NATO country anyway. And I believe the two sides can come to a settlement that preserves true independence in the part of Ukraine not currently occupied by Russia.

As to the rest of the country, post 2014 polls in Crimea and pre 2022 polls in the part of Donbas controlled by militias would indicate more people living in those areas would prefer affiliation with Russia to Ukraine. I remember one poll where the respondents had three choices: affiliation with Ukraine, affiliation with Russia, or "I want to live a peaceful life and retire with a good pension." A plurality or majority picked the third choice. This attitude, that Ukraine should settle the war soon, is more common the farther east you go.

The following is from an Email from a work colleague who has an ex business partner, of Russian ancestry, who grew up in Donbas. Some of the partner's family still lives there. Perhaps this will help you understand why I believe what I do. I've blanked out some names to avoid outing him or me.

*****'s extended family, Aunts and Uncles and cousins live in ************** under the jack-boot of the Ukrainian Army and last time I heard feed-back about six months ago, they were fearing for their lives daily. Skin-heads patrol the streets and pistol whip any dissenters. They are afraid to speak Russian as they have a mixed Russian and Cossack heritage. (******'s Mum and Dad live between Moscow and ************ where they are rotational workers on ********* projects). *******'s aunt and uncles and cousins have been living in their respective basements for a few years now, one cousin died of a heart attack last year (only 40 years old). ******** was devastated, it's all very sad for Ukrainians to be thrust into a major war with one of the most effective yet brutal armies historically and the west pouring weapons in, to 'save Ukraine just increases the misery of the people who can't do much as they don't live in a democracy as we understand it.

He subsequently told me his business partners relatives were excited, because the Russian army was getting closer and would soon liberate them. That was approximately 5 months ago, and they're still fighting it out around their town. This has turned into World War I trench warfare. Neither side is advancing much, but the wind is definitely at the Russians' back. Time for peace.

[pertpvyztrzv]

Originally Posted by Tiny

Hey Blackman, the USA historically hasn't been shy about invading countries without reason. The last one was Iraq. The total death toll from U.S. post 9/11 wars, direct and indirect, totaled over 4.5 million.

https://www.google.com/search?q=how+...hrome&ie=UTF-8

Isolating Cuba, Iran and Venezuela didn't work. It won't work in Russia either. How well have sanctions worked so far? Russian GDP at the end of 2023 was up 4.9% YoY, and as of the latest reported date, September, 2024, it was up 3.1% YoY.

This is not a win-at-all-cost situation for the USA, or Europe. Putin's not an idiot, as you say. I don't believe he's going to try something like this again, in a NATO country anyway. And I believe the two sides can come to a settlement that preserves true independence in the part of Ukraine not currently occupied by Russia.

As to the rest of the country, post 2014 polls in Crimea and pre 2022 polls in the part of Donbas controlled by militias would indicate more people living in those areas would prefer affiliation with Russia to Ukraine. I remember one poll where the respondents had three choices: affiliation with Ukraine, affiliation with Russia, or "I want to live a peaceful life and retire with a good pension." A plurality or majority picked the third choice. This attitude, that Ukraine should settle the war soon, is more common the farther east you go.

The following is from an Email from a work colleague who has an ex business partner, of Russian ancestry, who grew up in Donbas. Some of the partner's family still lives there. Perhaps this will help you understand why I believe what I do. I've blanked out some names to avoid outing him or me.

*****'s extended family, Aunts and Uncles and cousins live in ************** under the jack-boot of the Ukrainian Army and last time I heard feed-back about six months ago, they were fearing for their lives daily. Skin-heads patrol the streets and pistol whip any dissenters. They are afraid to speak Russian as they have a mixed Russian and Cossack heritage. (******'s Mum and Dad live between Moscow and ************ where they are rotational workers on ********* projects). *******'s aunt and uncles and cousins have been living in their respective basements for a few years now, one cousin died of a heart attack last year (only 40 years old). ******** was devastated, it's all very sad for Ukrainians to be thrust into a major war with one of the most effective yet brutal armies historically and the west pouring weapons in, to 'save Ukraine just increases the misery of the people who can't do much as they don't live in a democracy as we understand it.

He subsequently told me his business partners relatives were excited, because the Russian army was getting closer and would soon liberate them. That was approximately 5 months ago, and they're still fighting it out around their town. This has turned into World War I trench warfare. Neither side is advancing much, but the wind is definitely at the Russians' back. Time for peace.

Few in this thread know that or even want to hear that this has been going on since 2014. Z is not some great war time leader, he's a clown turned dictator and worldwide grifter that believes his own PR and apparently add Staff Edit into the mix inflates his ego even more.

For the first time ever, someone told Z no. He's not used to that. He's used to the US, EU not only kissing his butt, but bending over for him to do what he pleases. All while his wife is shopping in Paris.

This is not the old USSR Evil Empire against the rebellion. It's so bad now even Lindsey Graham changed sides. Now that's impressive. Even the Neocons have realized their plan of making Russia weaker through war and sanctions then the people would revolt against Putin - Actually had the opposite affect.

Give everything east of whatever river that is to Russia, include stop whining about Crimea and call it a day. That's when all the real vampires show up to "help rebuild" which worked so well in Iraq.

So many attitudes here stuck and swallowing the USSR bad propaganda it's painful to read most of the ignorance.

[1blackman1]

What part of Russia do you live in pert. You’re clearly a Putin lackey as well.

Tiny, I’ll just have to put you in the Neville Chamberlain category like the rest of the GOP. Shame that you have fallen so low on this subject. Appeasement at all costs.

[Tiny]

I initially only saw the last 5 minutes of the exchange between Trump, Vance and Zelensky, and put the blame on Vance for the fiasco. After viewing the entire 50 minute video, I believe the shit show was a group effort:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_YtXWVfkJE

Here is where the various individuals fucked up. I'll omit Trump's gaffes from the list. He's an old man and not on top of things 100%, so like Biden I won't hold him responsible for his fuckups.

Zelensky's enthusiasm for peace was lacking. For example, he said he still wants Russia to withdraw from occupied lands. He wants sufficient assurances to be reasonably sure Russia won't try this again. He characterized Putin as a killer. He said he wants the Europeans to hand over $300 billion in Russian sovereign assets to Ukraine for rebuilding. He doesn't want a cease fire before locking down terms of a long term deal. If he and Ukraine stick to these positions, the war will probably go on until Ukraine loses.

Zelensky should have addressed questions through a translator. Vance was able to railroad him because his English isn't anywhere close to 100%. Zelensky fucked up by asking Vance a question near the end of the press conference, which gave Vance the opportunity to unload.

Given that Zelensky and Trump weren't on the same page on many issues, they shouldn't have held an hour long press conference. Maybe a few minutes, tops. The press was part of the problem. One reporter said something like "President Zelensky just said he won't compromise. " Reviewing the video, I don't think he said any such thing. Another reporter pointed out that Zelensky was shaking his head when President Trump was talking about security guarantees. He might have been, but he probably didn't fully understand what Trump was saying.

Zelensky should have sucked up his pride and not disagreed with Trump or Vance. When Trump said the USA spent lots more on Ukraine than Russia, Zelensky should have just smiled. Or said Ukraine was very grateful for help from both the USA and Europe, instead of pointing out the USA hadn't spent more. If I understood him correctly, Zelensky told Trump that he (Trump) may share Putin's view that Ukraine is not a real country. Like Vance, he didn't know when to keep his mouth shut, when to put his pride aside. I'm reminded of the great Mafioso Philosopher, Marcellus Wallace. If Bruce Willis had listened to him, three people wouldn't have died. And Marcellus and Willis wouldn't have gotten butt fucked.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1q2PitIM9w

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by 1blackman1

What part of Russia do you live in pert. You’re clearly a Putin lackey as well.

Tiny, I’ll just have to put you in the Neville Chamberlain category like the rest of the GOP. Shame that you have fallen so low on this subject. Appeasement at all costs.

I'm going to get down on my knees tonight and thank the Almighty that you're a civil defense attorney and not President of the United States. You'd get us into a nuclear war.

[1blackman1]

And you’d let the US be the biggest pussy Nation ever.

Since Trump wasn’t really llooking to end the war or have an actual peace treaty, it really didn’t matter. A ceasefire is only effective if both parties operate in good faith. The Russians haven’t done so at any point. They, as noted by Zelensky, didn’t abide by their ceasefire in 2019 (during the Trump admin) and didn’t abide by any peace agreements during this war. If I recall correctly the Russians haven’t done bombed hospitals and schools and even bombed Ukraine on holidays when they had supposedly agreed to a Christmas ceasefire (or something to that effect). Zelensky doesn’t trust Putin (and didn’t say anything incorrect about him).

Lord knows it’s clear as hell that Dove Tiny has never been in the military. Neither has Trump. Vance has and you’d expect he’d know better than the positions he takes but he has shown he’s not really worth shit so I don’t pay him much attention.

And as usual you’re wrong. Only Marcellus got butt fucked. They never got to Butch before he started killing up folks.

[pertpvyztrzv]

Oh, Zelensky wanted the cameras rolling? Shocking. Guy's been living off Western media sympathy tours for years now. But hey, the highlight was definitely the Ukrainian Ambassador doing her best facepalm. Can’t really blame her—hard to keep a straight face with this level of clown show going on.


Meanwhile, half the thread is folks who couldn’t find Ukraine on a map if you spotted them the continent, yet here they are, foreign policy experts. Love that for us.
But hey, good news—Europe's all-in now. They’ve got Z's back. Perfect. Let them bankroll it. We can finally stop laundering billions and shipping weapons overseas just to see them pop up later in the hands of people shooting at us. I’m sure when it all falls apart, they’ll give us a ring. Again.


Europe’s suddenly feeling brave, tossing money around, maybe even boots on the ground soon. Why? Oh, right—because they figure the U.S. will step in if (when) it all goes sideways. Maybe, just maybe, we sit this one out for once. But sure, tell me more about how this is "just like WWII." Except, you know, the part where we’re openly backing actual Nazis. Totally normal stuff. Nothing to see here.


And isolating Russia? Nailed it. All it did was make their economy stronger and tighten them up with China. Brilliant strategy. Instead of finding common ground with a resource-rich superpower, we decided name-calling and cutting off McNuggets was the winning play. Really makes you think.


Imagine a world where the U.S. and Russia cooperated—our tech and industry (assuming we remember how to make things), their endless resources. But nah, let's shove them straight into China's arms and act confused when that turns into a problem.


And the EU? Yeah, let them keep importing the third world until they are the third world. Not really our circus anymore.

[Lucas McCain]

Originally Posted by Tiny

That's what I initially thought. Then I watched the whole video, of the 50 minute press conference.

Man, I don't need to waste my time watching 50 minutes of that shit. I saw enough of it and that was too much of silliness watching Musk's and Putin's geriatric bitch boy Trump and then watching Trump's bitch boy Vance trying to play to the cameras.

Zelensky shouldn't waste his time with them. If he wants help, ask countries in Europe for it and don't waste your time here. It is stupid to ask for help from your enemy's loyal bitch.

That bad reality TV would have been better if it ended like this: https://x.com/youranoncentral/status...555111866?s=42

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by 1blackman1

And you’d let the US be the biggest pussy Nation ever.

Since Trump wasn’t really llooking to end the war or have an actual peace treaty, it really didn’t matter. A ceasefire is only effective if both parties operate in good faith. The Russians haven’t done so at any point. They, as noted by Zelensky, didn’t abide by their ceasefire in 2019 (during the Trump admin) and didn’t abide by any peace agreements during this war. If I recall correctly the Russians haven’t done bombed hospitals and schools and even bombed Ukraine on holidays when they had supposedly agreed to a Christmas ceasefire (or something to that effect). Zelensky doesn’t trust Putin (and didn’t say anything incorrect about him).

Lord knows it’s clear as hell that Dove Tiny has never been in the military. Neither has Trump. Vance has and you’d expect he’d know better than the positions he takes but he has shown he’s not really worth shit so I don’t pay him much attention.

And as usual you’re wrong. Only Marcellus got butt fucked. They never got to Butch before he started killing up folks.

The USA and the UK killed more civilians in Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki on single days than Russia has killed in this entire war. You put Russia's back to the wall and there will be similar carnage. And for what? To satisfy neoconservatives' blood lust and paranoia?

Please pardon the WWII analogy pertpvyztrzv.

[Jacky S]

Originally Posted by Lucas McCain

Man, I don't need to waste my time watching 50 minutes of that shit. I saw enough of it and that was too much of silliness watching Musk's and Putin's geriatric bitch boy Trump and then watching Trump's bitch boy Vance trying to play to the cameras.

Zelensky shouldn't waste his time with them. If he wants help, ask countries in Europe for it and don't waste your time here. It is stupid to ask for help from your enemy's loyal bitch.

That bad reality TV would have been better if it ended like this: https://x.com/youranoncentral/status...555111866?s=42

Trouble is, the Europeans don’t give Ukraine money, they Loan it to them.

[pertpvyztrzv]

Originally Posted by 1blackman1

And you’d let the US be the biggest pussy Nation ever.

Since Trump wasn’t really llooking to end the war or have an actual peace treaty, it really didn’t matter. A ceasefire is only effective if both parties operate in good faith. The Russians haven’t done so at any point. They, as noted by Zelensky, didn’t abide by their ceasefire in 2019 (during the Trump admin) and didn’t abide by any peace agreements during this war. If I recall correctly the Russians haven’t done bombed hospitals and schools and even bombed Ukraine on holidays when they had supposedly agreed to a Christmas ceasefire (or something to that effect). Zelensky doesn’t trust Putin (and didn’t say anything incorrect about him).

Lord knows it’s clear as hell that Dove Tiny has never been in the military. Neither has Trump. Vance has and you’d expect he’d know better than the positions he takes but he has shown he’s not really worth shit so I don’t pay him much attention.

And as usual you’re wrong. Only Marcellus got butt fucked. They never got to Butch before he started killing up folks.

Right, because the only two options are endless involvement in foreign wars or being "the biggest pussy Nation ever." Solid logic there.
And this idea that "good faith" is even a thing in war is laughable. Both sides have been playing dirty since day one, but sure, let’s keep pretending Ukraine’s been a model of honesty and fair play just because Zelensky says so. The guy could tell some people the sky is green and they’d clap like seals.
As for ceasefires, yeah—shockingly, they don’t hold when no one trusts anyone and there’s money, land, and power on the line. Welcome to literally every war in history.
But sure, let's keep writing blank checks to manage other people’s problems while our own fall apart. I’m sure that’s what strength really looks like.
And yeah, we all remember the movie reference. Not really sure how that tied in, but points for creativity, I guess.

[pertpvyztrzv]

Originally Posted by Jacky S

Trouble is, the Europeans don’t give Ukraine money, they Loan it to them.

Exactly. And when Ukraine's government collapses or the borders get redrawn, who's lining up to collect on those loans? Good luck squeezing payments out of a country that's either in ruins or flying a Russian flag. But hey, I'm sure the EU's investment strategy is rock solid. What could possibly go wrong?

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by pertpvyztrzv

And yeah, we all remember the movie reference. Not really sure how that tied in, but points for creativity, I guess.

Thanks! That was my idea. Blackman stole it.

[biomed1]

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