Trump says Ukraine started the war

[Jacuzzme]

Fact of the matter is that Trump was right. Not a single bullet had to fly, and wouldn’t have if the US would have stayed out of Ukrainian affairs. But no, far too much money heading for Swiss bank accounts to worry about a million dead Russian and Ukrainian kids. The place in Sag Harbor needs a new boat launch.

[Lantern2814]

Originally Posted by pertpvyztrzv

Like Kosovo 1999? Not part of NATO, but had to get involved.

Afghanistan 2001 was a NATO thing.

Iraq 2004, Libya 2011, Syria 2010.

While NATO was originally formed as a defensive alliance, these actions show a pattern of OFFENSIVE Military interventions, regime change and "Humanitarian wars". unquote.

Yea, NATO's only for defense, until it's not.

Correct. NATO was originally formed for protection against the Soviet Union. Which no longer exists. THE American people don't want another Afghanistan. If not for the usual Washington suspects, this could have been ended long ago.

[HDGristle]

Originally Posted by Jacuzzme

Fact of the matter is that Trump was right. Not a single bullet had to fly, and wouldn’t have if the US would have stayed out of Ukrainian affairs. But no, far too much money heading for Swiss bank accounts to worry about a million dead Russian and Ukrainian kids. The place in Sag Harbor needs a new boat launch.

I'm picturing you and Trump posting a "Leave Vlad Alone" video while cosplaying as Britney Spears.

Russia was the aggressor. They were under no specific or direct threat and their referendums were pretense to land grab. If you let them do it here, they will continue. Already teed up for it on Ukraine's eastern border if they can secure a land bridge to Odessa

[Jacuzzme]

You’re a political boot licker. Maybe YOU give af about Ukrainian lives, but politicians and military brass don’t. We’ve got the state dept on tape setting up their little coup and what puppets to install. The only thing US government officials cared about was enriching themselves and their families, at the cost of god knows how many Ukrainian and Russian lives. All we had to do was nothing, and all those people would be at home shooting Stolis.

[HDGristle]

Which countries agreed to help protect Ukraine if they have up their nukes?

It's an easy question to answer. And I know you don't care about that commitment. I do. And it predates everything you're up in arms about. So fuck Russia and Slava Ukraini

[pertpvyztrzv]

Originally Posted by HDGristle

Which countries agreed to help protect Ukraine if they have up their nukes?

It's an easy question to answer. And I know you don't care about that commitment. I do. And it predates everything you're up in arms about. So fuck Russia and Slava Ukraini

I know, I know! Russia, UK and US. That "protection" did NOT include troops. Only that we would think about it and bring it to the UN. Seriously, can you imagine Zelensky with nukes, even small tactical nukes. One nuke and Kiev would be worse than Chernobyl.

The US promised not to expand NATO too. US also promised Natives could have Oklahoma territory if they walked a 1000 miles to get there.

Hmmm. Sensing a pattern here. Can't really put my finger on it yet.

[The_Waco_Kid]

Originally Posted by HDGristle

Which countries agreed to help protect Ukraine if they have up their nukes?

It's an easy question to answer. And I know you don't care about that commitment. I do. And it predates everything you're up in arms about. So fuck Russia and Slava Ukraini

fuck Ukraine. and Russia. where's the proof we ensured Ukraine sovereignty? we agreed to let the former USSR take their nukes back in exchange for not militarily occupying Ukraine after the Soviet collapse. after that what exactly did we agree to?


oh and let's not forget we the US/NATO agreed not to expand eastward toward mother Russia and then did just that.


Ukraine and the US/NATO are not innocents in this political conflict we had a large part in starting.


because we wanted to

[pertpvyztrzv]

Originally Posted by The_Waco_Kid

fuck Ukraine. and Russia. where's the proof we ensured Ukraine sovereignty? we agreed to let the former USSR take their nukes back in exchange for not militarily occupying Ukraine after the Soviet collapse. after that what exactly did we agree to?


oh and let's not forget we the US/NATO agreed not to expand eastward toward mother Russia and then did just that.


Ukraine and the US/NATO are not innocents in this political conflict we had a large part in starting.


because we wanted to

I had to look up the name, I knew there was something about security.

Budapest Memorandum (1994). Key word: Memo. A memo is NOT a Treaty. Not enforceable and not paid attention to. If someone bothered Ukraine, we would take it to the UN.

No mention of troops or even money.

1900 nuke warheads. 176 ICBMs, Scud and cruise missile systems from USSR. That would have been messy.

Some people are serious about their country's commitments, like the Not expanding NATO eastward in 1991, also not put into a treaty. So no one paid attention to that one either.

James Baker 1990 - told Gorbachev NATO would not expand one inch eastward if USSR allowed Germany to reunify.

Should have got that "commitment" in writing. Probably wouldn't have helped anyway.

[The_Waco_Kid]

Originally Posted by pertpvyztrzv

I had to look up the name, I knew there was something about security.

Budapest Memorandum (1994). Key word: Memo. A memo is NOT a Treaty. Not enforceable and not paid attention to. If someone bothered Ukraine, we would take it to the UN.

No mention of troops or even money.

1900 nuke warheads. 176 ICBMs, Scud and cruise missile systems from USSR. That would have been messy.

Some people are serious about their country's commitments, like the Not expanding NATO eastward in 1991, also not put into a treaty. So no one paid attention to that one either.

James Baker 1990 - told Gorbachev NATO would not expand one inch eastward if USSR allowed Germany to reunify.

Should have got that "commitment" in writing. Probably wouldn't have helped anyway.

exactly. all it was was a nudge nudge wink wink paper handshake which the US/NATO disregarded


and here we are now

[VitaMan]

Originally Posted by Jacuzzme

You’re a political boot licker. Maybe YOU give af about Ukrainian lives, but politicians and military brass don’t. We’ve got the state dept on tape setting up their little coup and what puppets to install. The only thing US government officials cared about was enriching themselves and their families, at the cost of god knows how many Ukrainian and Russian lives. All we had to do was nothing, and all those people would be at home shooting Stolis.

You forgot to mention Putin. He is the one that does not care about Russian lives.

They could have stayed in Russia. Instead Putin has managed to kill at least 150,000 Russians and wound 800,000 more.

[HDGristle]

I don't need innocence. Wasn't any vote for Ukraine to join NATO when Vlad pulled his shit in the Donbas and started trying to peel off parts of Ukraine by sending in his guys and lying about them being there.

If you want to be a Putin apologist, be a Putin apologist loudly and proudly. Like Donnyboy.

[VitaMan]

To say that Ukraine is responsible for Russian troops crossing their border is the biggest pile of the year.

[HDGristle]

Originally Posted by VitaMan

To say that Ukraine is responsible for Russian troops crossing their border is the biggest pile of the year.

Aye

[The_Waco_Kid]

Originally Posted by HDGristle

I don't need innocence. Wasn't any vote for Ukraine to join NATO when Vlad pulled his shit in the Donbas and started trying to peel off parts of Ukraine by sending in his guys and lying about them being there.

If you want to be a Putin apologist, be a Putin apologist loudly and proudly. Like Donnyboy.

Originally Posted by VitaMan

To say that Ukraine is responsible for Russian troops crossing their border is the biggest pile of the year.

if you two say so

Originally Posted by HDGristle

Aye

nonsense your narrative is failing bigly

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by pertpvyztrzv

I had to look up the name, I knew there was something about security.

Budapest Memorandum (1994). Key word: Memo. A memo is NOT a Treaty. Not enforceable and not paid attention to. If someone bothered Ukraine, we would take it to the UN.

No mention of troops or even money.

1900 nuke warheads. 176 ICBMs, Scud and cruise missile systems from USSR. That would have been messy.

Some people are serious about their country's commitments, like the Not expanding NATO eastward in 1991, also not put into a treaty. So no one paid attention to that one either.

James Baker 1990 - told Gorbachev NATO would not expand one inch eastward if USSR allowed Germany to reunify.

Should have got that "commitment" in writing. Probably wouldn't have helped anyway.

Bold print - Yes, James Baker was one of the slickest lawyers ever to come out of Texas, and indeed didn't put that in writing. But Baker and a number of other American, European and Canadian politicians and diplomats made similar assurances. I posted a great link on that, and will repost again here,

https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-b...-leaders-early