Democrats, why do you believe healthcare is a right?

[CJ7]

right? ... no

law ... yes.

hows that

[Yssup Rider]

Originally Posted by LovingKayla

Ok water wings geeeezus. Of course it's humane to help people. I didn't ask that. All I wanted to know was why y'all think its a right or something the government should be involved with? We have charities for helping folks. Shoot, I love helping out those charities but its not a RIGHT. No one should ever be forced to do something for someone. Ever.

I would benifit greatly from free healthcare but I don't believe it's right. Even under obamination care, I'd rather pay cash than ever use gov insurance.

Actually, SFG, you have come out against everything humanitarian that has been proposed and establsished yourself as one if the leading hate mongers on this board.

Do you pay taxes? Do you participate in America at all? Or do you simply spout hatred, racism and selfishness?

[Randy4Candy]

Originally Posted by LovingKayla

Ok water wings geeeezus. Of course it's humane to help people. We all feel better now. I didn't ask that. Well, I'm sure that you didn't mean to ask that. All I wanted to know was why y'all think its a right or something the government should be involved with? Do you pay any taxes, including federal income taxes on all of your earned income? If you do, then you may need to realize that you are already paying for someone else's health care. We have charities for helping folks. Yes, but they are not effective in all locations and the differences among what they do is wide. Shoot, I love helping out those charities but its not a RIGHT. I'd rather see a sermon than hear one. I think that you believe in thinking you love the idea of charities and OTHER PEOPLE giving to them, but it's not the same thing. No one should ever be forced to do something for someone. Ever. Yep, being an asshole is the ultimate "right."

I would benifit greatly from free healthcare but I don't believe it's right. I, for some reason, have a lot of trouble believing that statement because it infers that you have never taken advantage of any break that any government, local, state or federal, has had available to you. But, sometimes our actions get in the way of our beliefs. Even under obamination care, I'd rather pay cash than ever use gov insurance. Let's wait and see what happens if you get really, really sick. When it breaks you, you will show up at JPS or Parkland or some other county health facility and hook right up to the indigent care tit. Or your relatives, who may take your statement seriously that "No one should ever be forced to do something for someone else. Ever." may decide to just dump you in the parking lot and let the suckers take care of you.

Hmmm, too bad we won't be able to see what happens when the rubber really meets the road. Maybe the Beckster has something in mind for you. Maybe he'll let you sell his used pieces of chalk and erasers on the internet like they were religious relics or something.

[LovingKayla]

Originally Posted by Yssup Rider

Actually, SFG, you have come out against everything humanitarian that has been proposed and establsished yourself as one if the leading hate mongers on this board.
?

Please be specific on ANYTHING humanitarian that DOESN'T INVOLVE THE GOVERNMENT that I have EVER come out against.


If openly saying what 90% of you think about hating Muslims then fine.

Originally Posted by Yssup Rider

Do you pay taxes? Do you participate in America at all? Or do you simply spout hatred, racism and selfishness?

I pay more in quarterly taxes than you make in a year.

What participation are you asking about?

And the only people I've ever said I truly hated were Muslims. How about this, I'll love a Muslim so much I'll personally be happy to send him 72 virgins.

[CuteOldGuy]

Thousands of pages of relentless compassion.

[Randy4Candy]

That may be true, gritsboy, but what does it mean? OTOH, I wonder what is the height of your 18.5K collection of other peoples' work?

[Yssup Rider]

Originally Posted by LovingKayla

Please be specific on ANYTHING humanitarian that DOESN'T INVOLVE THE GOVERNMENT that I have EVER come out against.


If openly saying what 90% of you think about hating Muslims then fine.





I pay more in quarterly taxes than you make in a year.

What participation are you asking about?

And the only people I've ever said I truly hated were Muslims. How about this, I'll love a Muslim so much I'll personally be happy to send him 72 virgins.

Nice meltdown, SFG! You have spoken of your hatred for black people in the last. As well and communists and socialists. Name me one humanitarian program you routinely support that doesn't involve the government... That will suffice.

And Im sure you pay more in quarterly taxes than I make all year!

What is the IRS designation for your industry?

[WTF]

Originally Posted by LovingKayla

Ok water wings geeeezus. Of course it's humane to help people. I didn't ask that. All I wanted to know was why y'all think its a right or something the government should be involved with? We have charities for helping folks. Shoot, I love helping out those charities but its not a RIGHT. No one should ever be forced to do something for someone. Ever.

I would benifit greatly from free healthcare but I don't believe it's right. Even under obamination care, I'd rather pay cash than ever use gov insurance.

What you seeem not to understand is that we already have free healthcare. We had it before Obama.

So your premise is wrong....we do not have free healthcare, we pay taxes for this free healthcare. What Obamacare was really about was to get more people that were paying no taxes(no health insurance) to do so. They were freeloading onto the system.

If you get into a car accident and are sent to the ER, they take you in. If you run up a million dollar bill and you do not have enough silver buried to pay for it, we the taxpayers pay for it.

Originally Posted by LovingKayla

. No one should ever be forced to do something for someone. Ever.

.

We pay taxes....we are forced to. Those taxes go to things I agree with and things I do not but every citizen can say that exact same thing....so while your statement may sound good....it has no basis in reality. The reality is that every single one of us pays taxes that go to something that we do not believe in. That is how life works. You make compromises in life. Or more to some deserted island and live by yourself.

[jbravo_123]

The issue of what "rights" someone has is an interesting philosophical one. Personally, I don't think there are any natural rights at all, but only what rights your particular society grants you. Fundamentally, it doesn't make any difference where a particular right comes from since if society takes away a right, there's not much you can do about it anyways.

Now to the actual question of healthcare being a right. I do believe it's a right (at least basic emergency treatment) our society currently grants as evidenced by anyone's ability to go to an ER and receive treatment regardless of your current economic situation. I also feel that as the last remaining superpower in the world, it's a damn shame that we can't provide this healthcare in a more cost effective fashion where other first world countries in the world have shown the ability to do so without any problems.

What people don't understand is that we're already paying for everyone to have health coverage right now. We're just currently doing it in an extremely inefficient way (footing the bill for people's ER visits). What the ACA tries to do is change how we pay for it by attempting to get more payers into the system as well as focus more on preventative care (by having more citizens with private insurance, you now can now regularly go to your physician for visits and checkups). We know the current system isn't working and the problem is going to continue to get worse. Of course the ACA isn't going to be a perfect solution, but sitting around doing nothing is definitely not the correct course of action to fix the problem.

[Guest050715-1]

Originally Posted by willdooit@yahoo.com

Who is going to provide affordable health care? Not Obama, that's for sure.

I read a bumper sticker the other day that said, "If you think healthcare is expensive now, wait until it's free." I got a sad little chuckle out of that.

Originally Posted by WTF

God I hope ya'll nominate Ted Cruz as your party's canidate.

NOOOOOOOOOOOO! Don't even say it out loud! Ever! Even if you are in a sand pit in Yeoman with a trap door on top made of solid stainless with the entire structure is encased in steal reinforced concrete and a dragon guarding the door.

Originally Posted by CJ7

right? ... no

law ... yes.

hows that

Yes, but I, like most people, only obey laws that I agree with. I don't agree with this one, but I already have "affordable" health care although, Obamacare says it's not enough. My deductibles are too high.

I've made the decision to self-insure for healthcare expenses between a doctor's visit / annual exams and anything costing me more than $5,000. In other words, I'm down with medical bills $5,000 or less a year. Personally, I think it's my choice. I have a "right" to spend my money any way I want to as long as I"m not a burden on society, which I'm not, who cares what bucket I put my money into.

Originally Posted by Yssup Rider

What is the IRS designation for your industry?

Depends, for me anyway,, on if it's my real world business or the demimonde. So for me, it would be builder / entertainer respectively. Let's face it, the laws are written to benefit the self-employed. We hire people (in my real world job not in this one), and we are rewarded with a wonderful thing called the adjusted gross income.

Originally Posted by jbravo_123

What people don't understand is that we're already paying for everyone to have health coverage right now.

No, we have "free" health coverage for the poor and the elderly. The middle class and the working poor have nothing.

Originally Posted by jbravo_123

We're just currently doing it in an extremely inefficient way (footing the bill for people's ER visits).

They provide emergency care, but if you don't meet the ridiculous guidelines, you get a bill in the mail. If you don't pay, they destroy your credit and can sue you.

Originally Posted by jbravo_123

What the ACA tries to do is change how we pay for it by attempting to get more payers into the system as well as focus more on preventative care (by having more citizens with private insurance, you now can now regularly go to your physician for visits and checkups).

I read in the NYT this weekend that the Obama adminnistration is forcing hospitals into costly "social"-work following up with released patients to be sure they are taking their meds etc to reduce re-admittance. That's not the hospital's job. If the Obama wants to provide cradle to grave hand-holding, they can pay for it.

Originally Posted by jbravo_123

We know the current system isn't working and the problem is going to continue to get worse.

Ya, once it's free!

Originally Posted by jbravo_123

Of course the ACA isn't going to be a perfect solution, but sitting around doing nothing is definitely not the correct course of action to fix the problem.

Nothing is better than this abortion of a bill.

[jbravo_123]

Originally Posted by OliviaHoward

No, we have "free" health coverage for the poor and the elderly. The middle class and the working poor have nothing.

Through the current ER policy, if the middle class and working poor go there, they also can't be declined due to financial status. Ie, we have health coverage for everyone, but society is just going about paying for it in one of the most inefficient ways. Even Medicare/Medicaid aren't 100% free to the recipients (they still have to pay copays and fees, etc.). They don't have to pay for the plans themselves, but there is still some cost associated with them.

Again, I think we're generally in agreement that basic preventative and emergency care should be available at an affordable cost to everyone in our society - it's just how we pay for it that we probably disagree on?

[CJ7]

I'd much rather see millions of people without health insurance line up at county hospitals at the expense of tax payers.

apparently all of the rabid rightwingers agree with me .... saddle the taxpayers, and increase the deficit just to fuck with Obie .. then constantly bitch about both

brilliant

[Yssup Rider]

Originally Posted by CJ7

saddle the taxpayers, and increase the deficit just to fuck with Obie .. then constantly bitch about both

brilliant

Yep. Great unwashed masses aren't as stupid as the Whitewingers think, as evidenced in November.

We'll see major changes next year and sea change in 2016.

Hunker down boys and SFG!

[LovingKayla]

I know what you mean when you write SFG but you do realize the SFG is a military post wife thing right? OH I'm sorry you probably didn't... nimrod.

And oddly enough sfg.com is a financial firm my family is associated with. Good pick. I'll keep that name.

[Guest050715-1]

Originally Posted by jbravo_123

Through the current ER policy, if the middle class and working poor go there, they also can't be declined due to financial status.

But the middle class guy has to PAY for it or have his life destroyed. The poor don't. Why should we give health care to those on multi-generational welfare, but the guy that works? Fuck him!

Originally Posted by jbravo_123

Even Medicare/Medicaid aren't 100% free to the recipients (they still have to pay copays and fees, etc.). They don't have to pay for the plans themselves, but there is still some cost associated with them.

Bet the middle class guy would would be more than happy to pay just the co-pay. It's NOT the same.

Originally Posted by jbravo_123

Again, I think we're generally in agreement that basic preventative and emergency care should be available at an affordable cost to everyone in our society - it's just how we pay for it that we probably disagree on?

Agreed. Preventitive, basic and ER care should be delivered not only on demand, but there should be outreach to the poorer, uneducated and the infirmed.