UNION GREED...CHICAGO STYLE...

[Budman]

I agree there are good and bad teachers just like any other profession. I think the biggest problem with our education system is the lack of discipline in the schools. The teachers hands are tied. In many cases they can't remove the trouble makers and much teach to the lowest common denominator. The idea is to never get rid of the child. Do whatever it takes to help that child succeed. It sounds good but in reality it damages the rest of the students. It's not fair to all of the other kids that are there to learn. If you have a kid that is nothing but trouble and disruptive then he needs to go. I also think the system should bring back shop / trade classes. Many kids are not cut out for college. Give them the chance to learn a trade. Something they can take with them and make a living at.

[Guest040616]

Just as in any occupation, there are good teachers and bad. Don't blame all teachers because there are a few bad apples.

I once heard of a West Texas school teacher that was so good at teaching that she taught her incompetent husband to read a book upside down.

Now that's a damn good teacher!

PLEASE REMEMBER THE FOLLOWING WORDS OF WISDOM:

"Rarely is the question asked: Is our children learning?"

George W. Bush

[DSK]

Originally Posted by WombRaider

Why do you need to use another example that has nothing to do with this? If you work one month a year and make 77K, whether you space it out over a month or 12 months, it's still 77K.

So you think teachers deserve to be paid 77K per month?

[pyramider]

Originally Posted by Whirlaway

That is an exaggeration.

This links shows the cost of living difference - Chicago is about 7% higher than Dallas.


http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living...2=Dallas%2C+TX

I looked into moving to Chicago for a promotion. The money bump would not cover cost of living. HR even admitted it and stated the next promotion would be a lot more money. I said nope, I am not going to work at a loss for a future promotion. Comparable housing were almost double. The taxes were ungodly. Electricity is a lot more expensive. Food is expensive. That is a lot more than 7%.

[WombRaider]

Originally Posted by Budman

I agree there are good and bad teachers just like any other profession. I think the biggest problem with our education system is the lack of discipline in the schools. The teachers hands are tied. In many cases they can't remove the trouble makers and much teach to the lowest common denominator. The idea is to never get rid of the child. Do whatever it takes to help that child succeed. It sounds good but in reality it damages the rest of the students. It's not fair to all of the other kids that are there to learn. If you have a kid that is nothing but trouble and disruptive then he needs to go. I also think the system should bring back shop / trade classes. Many kids are not cut out for college. Give them the chance to learn a trade. Something they can take with them and make a living at.

Agree completely. It's almost politically incorrect now to say that not everyone is college material, but it's true. Teach them a skill that they can then go out and use to get a good job.

[CuteOldGuy]

Originally Posted by WombRaider

Republitard answer for everything

Actually, it is a Libertarian idea, and it would work.

[Whirlaway]

Will Chicago go the way of Detroit and declare bankruptcy as a way out of these lavish pension contracts?

Another bastion of liberal Democratic rule is on the edge of failure.

IC a trend here.

[Yssup Rider]

SNICK

[CuteOldGuy]

SPAM!

[ronrocket]

Originally Posted by Whirlaway

Starting salary of $77,496 for 8 months of work?

That is the equivalent to an annual salary of $116,000 - starting.

What's wrong with that picture? And $2.4 million paid out in retirement?

And keep in mind; most aren't teaching, but providing baby sitting services.

Two errors in this.

First, the $77,496 number is the annual pension payout, not salary. Remember that Illinois teachers don't get social security, which would be roughly $3000/mo for a lifetime employment teacher retiring at 67. So the value of the pension above and beyond social security is about $31,000/yr, but that has nothing to do with the salary argument. The average salary for a teacher in Chicago is $71,000, so you cannot compare that with the beginning salary of a EE graduate. You would have to compare to the average salary, which is $70347. Comparable. Starting teacher salary is $50,000

Second error - the work year. The Chicago contract is for 190 working days, or 38 weeks. A typical person with 2-4 weeks vacation and 2 weeks holidays (4th July, etc) works 46-48 weeks, so the teachers work about 80% of the work days as non-teachers, not 67% as the 8-month claim (which is wrong) implies.

Still, I strongly agree that teachers should be paying the 9% contribution to the pension, and I also strongly agree that the Teachers Union in Chicago is a complete block to any reform. But that is the tip of the iceberg. All public sector unions should be eliminated. They are corrosive and breed corruption of the worst sort.

[nwarounder]

Chicago is not even debatable anymore. Corrupt liberals, unions, gun control and gangsta's amongst other things have left nothing but a cesspool of living conditions. Just be thankful you don't have to live there.

[Guest032516]

Originally Posted by Whirlaway

"spread out" has nothing to do with the math; you obviously are an economic illigerate.

I didn't comment about CEO pay.

But if teacher's want to be treated/paid as professionals, they need to work like professionals. Twelve months a year; not 8.

By your measurement; we could get those same teachers to work 12 months and only pay them $77,000, since they are getting a "spread out" salary.

"the market will bear".......LOL....You are an idiot.

The only economic illiterate here is you.

First, schools are barely out for three months, not 4, so the "spread" is only over 9 months.

Second, teachers work for at least part of the summer vacation preparing for the next school year and taking whatever additional certifications are necessary. They don't just jump in on the first day of school when students return.

Also, your argument implies that they could get some other job during the summer months that pays them the equivalent of their teachers salaries. That's also bullshit.

I knew a science teacher that was a bouncer at a local bar on summer weekends because he could identify the high school kids and keep them our. Another teacher was head of the life guards at a local beach.

Seasonal summer work does not pay the equivalent of a teacher's salary - or anything near it.

So, it isn't just like a $116K salary.

We could take your knucklehead argument and apply it to weekends for everyone.

Most folks work 5 days for X dollars a year. But if you consider the other two days when they are off, that's equivalent to 40% of the days they work.

So their annual salary of X is the annual equivalent of (X +40%X) = 1.4X. See a little problem with that logic Whirlagay?

Having said all that, I am all in favor of ending public pensions and making them use 401K plans like the rest of us. The 401K money is YOURS and your employer cannot fuck with it and it is not dependent on illusory promises about money that your employer will set aside for you in the future.

[WombRaider]

Originally Posted by ExNYer

The only economic illiterate here is you.

First, schools are barely out for three months, not 4, so the "spread" is only over 9 months.

Second, teachers work for at least part of the summer vacation preparing for the next school year and taking whatever additional certifications are necessary. They don't just jump in on the first day of school when students return.

Also, your argument implies that they could get some other job during the summer months that pays them the equivalent of their teachers salaries. That's also bullshit.

I knew a science teacher that was a bouncer at a local bar on summer weekends because he could identify the high school kids and keep them our. Another teacher was head of the life guards at a local beach.

Seasonal summer work does not pay the equivalent of a teacher's salary - or anything near it.

So, it isn't just like a $116K salary.

We could take your knucklehead argument and apply it to weekends for everyone.

Most folks work 5 days for X dollars a year. But if you consider the other two days when they are off, that's equivalent to 40% of the days they work.

So their annual salary of X is the annual equivalent of (X +40%X) = 1.4X. See a little problem with that logic Whirlagay?

Having said all that, I am all in favor of ending public pensions and making them use 401K plans like the rest of us. The 401K money is YOURS and your employer cannot fuck with it and it is not dependent on illusory promises about money that your employer will set aside for you in the future.

Thank you. For once we are on the same side. I've been trying to tell his dumb ass this shit since he started this train wreck.

[lustylad]

Originally Posted by ExNYer

The only economic illiterate here is you.

First, schools are barely out for three months, not 4, so the "spread" is only over 9 months.

Second, teachers work for at least part of the summer vacation preparing for the next school year and taking whatever additional certifications are necessary. They don't just jump in on the first day of school when students return.

Also, your argument implies that they could get some other job during the summer months that pays them the equivalent of their teachers salaries. That's also bullshit.

I knew a science teacher that was a bouncer at a local bar on summer weekends because he could identify the high school kids and keep them our. Another teacher was head of the life guards at a local beach.

Seasonal summer work does not pay the equivalent of a teacher's salary - or anything near it.

So, it isn't just like a $116K salary.

We could take your knucklehead argument and apply it to weekends for everyone.

Most folks work 5 days for X dollars a year. But if you consider the other two days when they are off, that's equivalent to 40% of the days they work.

So their annual salary of X is the annual equivalent of (X +40%X) = 1.4X. See a little problem with that logic Whirlagay?

Having said all that, I am all in favor of ending public pensions and making them use 401K plans like the rest of us. The 401K money is YOURS and your employer cannot fuck with it and it is not dependent on illusory promises about money that your employer will set aside for you in the future.

Ok, let's assume (as you say) teachers can't find seasonal summer work at equivalent pay. Let's assume they don't work at all during the summer. They still enjoy a much sweeter deal than a normal private sector job paying the same salary. That's the point to be made here. Which is more attractive:

1. Job paying $77k a year with 4 weeks of paid vacation.

2. Job paying $77k a year with 12 weeks of paid vacation.

Now you're comparing apples to apples and you can see the difference without arguing over how to adjust/annualize the pay.

.

[WombRaider]

Originally Posted by lustylad

Ok, let's assume (as you say) teachers can't find seasonal summer work at equivalent pay. Let's assume they don't work at all during the summer. They still enjoy a much sweeter deal than a normal private sector job paying the same salary. That's the point to be made here. Which is more attractive:

1. Job paying $77k a year with 4 weeks of paid vacation.

2. Job paying $77k a year with 12 weeks of paid vacation.

Now you're comparing apples to apples and you can see the difference without arguing over how to adjust/annualize the pay.

.

No, you're not. And that's the point. They are also responsible for continuing education and certification requirements. You think being a teacher is a sweeter deal than a private sector job? Go teach for a year. You'll be singing a different tune. If the person in the private sector job doesn't like it, get another fucking job and quit your bitching. This is 'murica.