Enlighten me!

[Niktu]

China once again has started a provocative conversation.
I will try and learn from NB, giving a quick hit-n-run for my .02.

I think what is being missed is not that the guy reacted in a crass and boorish manner when his request for an appointment was was declined.
The point is the declination was because he was perceived to have a boorish, disrespectful attitude to begin with. The question is why is that his manner?

I think the answer is who knows; bad potty training, misogyny, low self esteem? Maybe he doesn't even intend or realize his behavior. Admittedly, with the name calling it's hard for me to imagine, but possible. When I was younger I had an appointment with a mid level manager of a large national corporation known for it's aggressive style. The man couldn't speak without using violent physically imagery... bashing heads together, gut punching people into line etc. Perhaps for him it was environmental conditioning.

If I was curious about anything in your example, it would be the person's age. Apologies to any 20 something's, but there is a lot of development and maturity yet to finish. Looking back to when I was 20's (ok 30's too) I am embarrassed by how ignorant I was. (Admittedly it's also probably an unabashed plug for us .. ahem .. "mature" guys.)


The important part is your response.

China obviously you did well. (Although you took the wind out of my sails with the comment of not expending more caloric energy than required to roll your brown eyes, even after I spent time today thinking how to reply). There is a topic in a book I am reading where the author advocates framing your interpretation of an event in a way that is positive and empowering to you, while not denying the reality. His point is mental self talk of an event will have a positive or negative effect on you, simply frame it to be positive.


The 2nd topic of negative comments regarding a woman's appearance. Sorry, no idea, only God knows. Should we ever meet I'm much more afraid you would make a unguarded comment about me.


The 3rd topic regarding level of discourse, I don't know what "nasty things" you mean, but probably Jack is right. Other than the review forum I hadn't really noticed much of a difference, but I'm not on as much as before. And on the old board I generally read companion and legal forums, not one's that lend them self to "nasty things" anyway.


That is a long .02. Already I broke my promise to myself not to write late in the evening when I am tired.


ps. Anita, I love your comments.
pps. China, my poor heart with your "love being a slut" comment.

[China Doll]

Very informative post, Niktu! I'd elaborate, but I haven't the time at the moment.

I know that he was at least in his 30's, but he might have been older. Apology accepted for the bashing of the twenty-somethings.

[NormalBob]

Originally Posted by China Doll

3) Why does the ECCIE board content differ so greatly from the nasty things I have heard about ASPD before it was shut down? Did something change with the transition to ECCIE, or was I mistaken in trusting my ASPD sources?

I guess I don't know how to interpret this question China.

Are you saying that ECCIE is more nasty or less nasty than ASPD?

I understand your disclaimer that you had only heard things about ASPD without having participated there.

I just am not sure I understand which of the two boards you're considering to be less nasty than the other.

[MajorHands]

China,

I have to marvel that whenever you opt to weigh in here on the board, it rarely fails to be pithy and provocative...

One nuance of your question about your encounter with this man that I don't think was fully addressed, despite the plethora of insightful and detailed responses, is that I think his subsequent abusive and insulting comments reflected his true self..his true perceptions. Granted, we all have our baser natures and anger is one way we tap into them, usually to our detriment. This guy's behavior to the degree you have described it suggests that he is (as someone already suggested) a misogynist whose true opinions of providers particularly are less than reverent. Thus, his original civility and politeness was a thin veneer.

Now, civility is one form of social lubricant that allows people to interact...well, civilly. It is far superior to unfiltered candor, and can be both a measure of consideration and respect. At the same time, donning the appearance of civility and politeness in order to take advantage of another individual for whom one feels contempt is NOT the action of a good human. It's pretty despicable. My take is that this behavior should be actively discouraged. Would this normally be the type of thing that would rise to the level of a Do Not See recommendation on the provider forum? I'm not sure where the bar is for something like that but the denigration of providers or women in general is probably not a desirable trait in a client.

As for the pointing out of a physical flaw....with the understanding that I don't know the specifics...this one has me a bit torn. In my life, I've had the privilege to have some amazing sexual adventures with women who are not remotely close to my physical ideal (although I found them to be beautiful human beings)...women who I would never have deigned to canoodle with in my younger/shallower years. Thus, I can appreciate that there will be providers (Thank God) who can enjoy the times spent with we less than ideal physical specimens. I learned that while physical aesthetics can be delightful, they are not the measure of the person or the experience.

With that said, I think I am safe in saying that physical beauty/general attractiveness is one aspect of the marketability for a provider. Most review formats I've seen address this reality. It's not the whole story, nor should it be. At the same time, being a hottie is good for business. I have yet to meet a provider for whom I did not wish success. As someone with a penchant and passion for problem solving, I've observed a physical trait here and there, usually tied to physical fitness that, if improved, would enhance the marketability of the provider. The temptation to play coach or provide constructive criticism is there, although I have refrained from giving in to it. The fact that my advice might be good does not mean that it would be welcome or should be offered.

All I'm suggesting is that in some cases, a client pointing out a physical flaw may not have malicious intent, however ill advised and inadvertently insulting it might be. All I can suggest to the clients out there. Hold off on your constructive criticism until you are asked for your opinion.

[silverfox]

Some guys have the misconception that when they pay for something, they should never be rejected, and that it somehow gives them the right to be rude or disrespectful...after all "I'm paying for it".

To be honest (and I don't mean to be disrespectful to my fellow gentleman here), there is a notion that men who pay for companionship do so because its the only recourse they have to be with such lovely women. Once rejected, it will bring out he worse in a man if that man has an underlying problem with women, or rejection of any kind. Being beautiful does have a curse...when you reject somebody much less beautiful than you, if that person has issues with rejection, nothing good will come of it.

[China Doll]

I had a long, thought-out response typed, and then my computer decided to shut down just for fun. Urgh! I shall try to summarize.

Chloe, you are a valued comrade as well. You are one of my favorite ladies in the area, and I always love talking with you and reading your posts.

Normal Bob, I meant that the reputation of ASPD was far worse than what I have seen on the local forums on ECCIE.

Major Hands, I think that you may be right that the men who say these things really do have a problem with women. I can't speak for the others, but I certainly wouldn't see someone who had said such things to another provider. Also, good advice at the end of your post! It is probably always best to keep such comments to ourselves.

Silverfox, I have seen a lot of evidence to support the idea that some men feel that they have a right to see whomever they want. Comments like "I am the paying customer!" and "You have to see me! I'm the one who pays your bills!" always sound funny to me, because they seem to largely come from men who are upset that a lady will not see them. In other words, no, they are not the paying customer, and no, they do not pay the bills!
There was once a post in which a man expressed the opinion that my screening processes are a bad thing because they allow me to simply ignore messages and only answer the ones I want to.

.....and?

[guest111111]

I dont know, maybe its the full moon, but when did us "hobbiests" start thinking that these marvelous ladies dont have a choice in who they see? Just because you hit mega millions last night and the money is burning a whole in your pocket, has no relevance on whether or not a girl may or may not want to see you. Common sense is said to be everywhere, yet it is one fo the hardest thigns to find!

[GP]

Originally Posted by Docdave

I dont know, maybe its the full moon, but when did us "hobbiests" start thinking that these marvelous ladies dont have a choice in who they see? Just because you hit mega millions last night and the money is burning a whole in your pocket, has no relevance on whether or not a girl may or may not want to see you. Common sense is said to be everywhere, yet it is one fo the hardest thigns to find!

Please don't lump me in with everyone else you are referring to. I think you will find you are talking about a minority.

[China Doll]

I don't think that Docdave meant to speak of all hobbyists, but I know how you feel, GP. Sometimes I feel like people are talking about me, too, when they speak ill or providers. I think we can all agree that we are very lucky to be in a great hobbyist community here in WNY.

[Chloe]

"Silverfox, I have seen a lot of evidence to support the idea that some men feel that they have a right to see whomever they want. Comments like "I am the paying customer!" and "You have to see me! I'm the one who pays your bills!" always sound funny to me, because they seem to largely come from men who are upset that a lady will not see them. In other words, no, they are not the paying customer, and no, they do not pay the bills!
There was once a post in which a man expressed the opinion that my screening processes are a bad thing because they allow me to simply ignore messages and only answer the ones I want to.

.....and?" Chinadoll

I get yelled at a lot about my screening. Put down and called all sorts of names.

May I put in public that us girls (well at least me) receive about 50 e-mails a day? We need to read, screen and "feel out" if this person is respectful enough to receive our full attention.

About 40 is back and forth conversation weither it be referense and screening limbo or contact with our loved regulars.

The other 10 are new clients needing a full screening (which can take days depending the person). So when you get an e-mail limbo in the midst of all that that is shooting insults it sucks.

China knows I vent in the womens alert section every time lol. I go there and post all info and tell every gal about who completely disrespected me every time it happens lol. It's a space for me to vent and also let the other girls know who they may be dealing with. (Thank you Eccie)

But the reverse does happen if someone puts an alert and gets nothing but wonderful feedback about the guy . . . maybe an off day as we all have

[China Doll]

It is probably hard for some of the guys to imagine how much time we put into this business, just like I am sure it's hard for us to imagine things from their side. You're right, I think, that sometimes guys just have off days. During my off days, I tend to be a little more suspicious of the men I have not met and act accordingly. Sometimes I am right in doing so, and sometimes I am not. Luckily, most guys are pretty understanding of my desire to protect myself. The ones who aren't can take their hissy fits to another pretty little lady!

[silverfox]

" Would a man who truly respects providers use this to insult them in the hopes that it might work?"...that's a contradiction...any man who respects providers...would not insult them, period.

"do the ones who say these things just pretend to respect us until we piss them off?''...that's correct. These are the same people who act one way when they get their way, and completely different when they don't. I would say a majority of people (not just men) are like that. I'm sure we all know many. They will turn on you in a heartbeat if you in any way piss then off...even if they deserve it.

[China Doll]

Hmmm...look what I came across.

http://www.eccie.net/showthread.php?t=42907

Classy, huh?

[offshoredrilling]

Classy not. It was right to post. But the wording makes him to look not much better than the person he was having problems with. I do not think I would want to be the next provider if I was a female. I know someone that I believe is not on this board, that if that happen him would have gotten locked right on the first thread. Many guys I know in the hobby, but not on this board or ones like it. Think that they are better and smarter than the providers. And must jump just because he has some cash. Then use a term for providers that make the "W" word seem lame. Then also gets mad if other guys offer them more than he is willing to put up. Some day he may learn that guys in the hobby and providers may not be the same sex. But we are equals. And one side is not above the other.

[am-a-pleaser]

Originally Posted by China Doll

It is probably hard for some of the guys to imagine how much time we put into this business, just like I am sure it's hard for us to imagine things from their side. You're right, I think, that sometimes guys just have off days. During my off days, I tend to be a little more suspicious of the men I have not met and act accordingly. Sometimes I am right in doing so, and sometimes I am not. Luckily, most guys are pretty understanding of my desire to protect myself. The ones who aren't can take their hissy fits to another pretty little lady!

I agree with what many have expressed. Rejection is powerful. Combine that with the anonymity of the internet, and many will say terrible hurtful things responding from their own hurt. Hurt involves feelings. That's a very powerful motivator. The guys who react so negatively may have self-illusioned deep feelings about the lady and the relationship.

Oh sh*t, did the simple Texan suggest feelings are involved in this community?

Physical flaws?? Beauty comes from within. I'm sure many of us could relay a personal story. Maybe I'm too much like Shallow Hal after Tony Robbins transformed him.

Many things have been brought up during this thread. I was in Dallas several months ago and had arranged to meet a lady. We had emailed and talked on the phone. Our appointment was set. During our time online and on the phone, she told me she secretly hopes for a "Pretty Woman" fairytale to become real life for her. She really liked the movie and had seen it several times.

I decided to surprise her. We had a dinner date set up and she was coming to my hotel so we could leave from there. I made time from work to go get some candles. I went on the internet and downloaded many video music clips from the movie. Set it up so they would play in a seductive sequence. I stayed up late the night before to get everything ready. The next day I rushed back from work, jumped in the shower, making sure I was clean, everything freshly shaved. Got dressed in my coat and tie. Knowing she gave men their fantasies, I was going provide hers, if even for only a few hours.

Checked to make sure all was in order with the music videos I'd prepared. I picked up the phone to call her. I discovered a voice mail from her left for me while I was in the shower. Ii said she had to cancel because her "monthly visitor" had arrived. I called her, we spoke a little. I invited her to join me only for dinner, but she declined saying she hadn't cleaned up to go and would rather pass. I told her I understood, and we agreed there would be another time the next time I was in Dallas.

I felt let down. But I invested time, not emotion. I wanted to give her a very good memory of a few hours of her fantasy. As it turns out, she has a good memory of some guy that was polite and understanding. I don't know if her excuse was real, or if some other reason prompted her to cancel. It doesn't really matter.

My long-winded point ---- had someone else invested emotion, he might have felt rejected, As a result, he might have lashed out. Whenever someone expresses themselves, it's usually more involved than the immediate circumstance that causes their reaction.

Did I answer the questions? Why the negative reactions? Rejection, hurt, past life experiences, general life attitude., sense of entitlement, pointing out another's flaws takes the focus from themselves, their self-image, attempt to inflict more hurt than they feel..


So, this guy from Texas has feelings and respect for others. Most on eccie have respect for others and tend to show it. A small minority do not. I can have a bad day, but I hope if I ever vent, my tone and choice of words will reflect my underlying good character.