Trump Flirts With the Ultimate Tax Cut: No Income Taxes at All

[Why_Yes_I_Do]

Absolutely, positively not! Do not, under any circumstance, grant the bloated and self centered interests in DC a sales tax stream.

Have you ever seen a sales tax lowered?

Originally Posted by Jacky S

The federal tax should be replaced by a tax on what you purchase, not what you earn.

That way, if the billionaire wishes to buy a multimillion dollar yacht, he would pay the appropriate tax.

If the middle class worker wishes to buy a 18 foot aluminum boat, he would pay the appropriate tax.

[farmstud60]

Originally Posted by txdot-guy

I suggest everyone read the following site: https://www.crfb.org/blogs/what-woul...-budget-update

Balancing the federal budget with out raising taxes is nigh on impossible.

Excluding Social Security and Medicare from cuts would make the task of balance even more unrealistic. Without touching spending on defense, veterans, or Social Security, all other spending would need to be cut by 50 percent. Also excluding Medicare would mean that remaining spending would need to ultimately be cut by 78 percent.

I'm sorry, but even when Regan and Trump cut tax rates, revenues to the government increased.



All that says is we have a spending problem. A huge spending problem. Increasing taxes is code for more power in Washington DC.

[farmstud60]

Originally Posted by Jacky S

The federal tax should be replaced by a tax on what you purchase, not what you earn.

That way, if the billionaire wishes to buy a multimillion dollar yacht, he would pay the appropriate tax.

If the middle class worker wishes to buy a 18 foot aluminum boat, he would pay the appropriate tax.

I think this is similar to what is done in quite a few European countries that they call a VAT tax. Which is Value Added Tax.


Your sales tax or VAT tax isn't a totally bad idea, but it does result in a different type of complication.



Some businesses that actually produce things have to buy supplies. Do they have to pay a tax on those supplies?



The real problem is that politicians try to promise that someone else will pay taxes to get votes.

[Yssup Rider]

Originally Posted by farmstud60

I think this is similar to what is done in quite a few European countries that they call a VAT tax. Which is Value Added Tax.


Your sales tax or VAT tax isn't a totally bad idea, but it does result in a different type of complication.



Some businesses that actually produce things have to buy supplies. Do they have to pay a tax on those supplies?



The real problem is that politicians try to promise that someone else will pay taxes to get votes.

However, that's just one of many taxes EU Citizens pay. You conveniently left that part out.

[Jacuzzme]

Originally Posted by Yssup Rider

However, that's just one of many taxes EU Citizens pay. You conveniently left that part out.

This is absolutely correct. Europeans get ass raped, even more so than Americans, at all income levels. Their politicians have figured out, and somehow conditioned the citizens to agree, that it’s the middle class’s bank accounts that need raided to fund social programs.

Politicians here lie and tell the people that it’s the rich that are responsible for not paying their “fair share”. It’s unadulterated horseshit, math doesn’t lie. There’s nowhere near enough rich people to fund European quasi-socialism, even if you take every penny they’ve got. The pool of money in the US lies with people who make 40-70k, simply because there’s so many of them. If we want things like socialized medicine/childcare/universities like they do in some European countries, politicians should be honest and let people know that they’ve gotta tax TF out of the middle class to make it happen.

I’m all for it, even without social programs involved. Tax the poor! And none of this paycheck withholding crap either, let them save up and send it in every quarter or have some IRS goons show up at their front door. Give them a taste of how the other half REALLY lives.

[farmstud60]

Originally Posted by Yssup Rider

However, that's just one of many taxes EU Citizens pay. You conveniently left that part out.

And everyone in the U.S. pays taxes to state and local governments as well.


I didn't conveniently leave it out, it wasn't important in this discussion.

[Yssup Rider]

Nothing closely resembling that

[Why_Yes_I_Do]

Originally Posted by farmstud60

And everyone in the U.S. pays taxes to state and local governments as well...

Well... Trump proposed restoring the SALT (State and Local Tax) deduction on Federal taxes.

Not clear if he plans to cap it at $10K again. It was a nice backhand to places like NY and CA.

What is crystal clear is Kamala will claim it was her idea all along.

[eyecu2]

Originally Posted by farmstud60

Actually Trump is way smarter than you think. It is hard to get the discussion away from the status quo way of doing things. The income tax code is gigantic corrupt power grab by the Federal government that has resulted in all kinds of issues..Shaking things up to get an honest debate on taxation would be a great thing.

I think a change to the tax code is long overdue. minimal flat tax of say 7-10%- and for those larger purchases, there is an additional personal property tax that you cannot squeeze out of. Eliminating the loopholes for churches and other entities who pay NONE of their fair share, yet enjoy the benefits of societal pathways paid for with taxes. I don't agree with any sort of death tax or inheritance taxes at all, but these smaller taxes are more tolerable. Also- capital gains taxes should be limited to like 15% too. You cannot penalize capitalism in the name of taxing the rich only. Perhaps a sliding scale for profits over 500k, 1MM, and breakpoints above start to slide up a small amount, but in general- those loopholes for lost revenue on unrealized revenues on things like real-estate should be a personal problem, not an IRS problem.

Fix your shit or sell it. The government isn't here to debate you're a slumlord or a REIT holder.

[eyecu2]

Originally Posted by farmstud60

I'm sorry, but even when Regan and Trump cut tax rates, revenues to the government increased.



All that says is we have a spending problem. A huge spending problem. Increasing taxes is code for more power in Washington DC.

equal allocation of taxes are the problem. EVERYONE needs to pay a fair share. ESPECIALLY the rich.

Now as far as spending goes- our fat military budget that cannot even tell us where Billions of dollars (or higher) are spent or track outstanding debts and credits is a problem. There needs to be an audit that pulls that entire shit show back into alignment. I'm fine with the spend on personnel, but these over-inflated costs for even small goods, or armaments, is only making suppliers and govt contractors fat and happy.

Medicaid and senior health is a big spend, but that isn't going to go away anytime soon. The entitlements that get all the pushback from the GOP like child-care or SNAP benefits (food) are a joke. They make up very little of costs.

What do areas of spending do you think are wasteful and need to be changed?

Trumps suggestion of no income tax is just a ruse- and a last ditch ploy to get some extra votes- it has a ZERO chance in passing anywhere in congress.

[Texas Contrarian]

Originally Posted by eyecu2

Trumps suggestion of no income tax is just a ruse- and a last ditch ploy to get some extra votes- it has a ZERO chance in passing anywhere in congress.

That's for sure! In the annals of silly political seasons, this is one of the silliest of all. On the other side of the aisle, Democrats have actually argued that taxing unrealized capital gains, one of the worst tax proposals in history, would be a workable and effective plan. So the fatuousness is a truly bipartisan effort!

For starters, federal government spending at the time the McKinley tariff act was passed amounted to roughly 3.5% of GDP. (Yes, seriously!) Now it totals around seven times that, or almost 25%.

And don't forget that a big shift in US consumption from goods to services means that aggregate consumption of imported goods is well below 10% of GDP. Even applying tariffs at a high rate wouldn't raise more than a very small fraction of current income tax collections, and high tariff rates would obviously suppress imports further, reducing revenues even more.

Originally Posted by Jacuzzme

This is absolutely correct. Europeans get ass raped, even more so than Americans, at all income levels. Their politicians have figured out, and somehow conditioned the citizens to agree, that it’s the middle class’s bank accounts that need raided to fund social programs.

Politicians here lie and tell the people that it’s the rich that are responsible for not paying their “fair share”. It’s unadulterated horseshit, math doesn’t lie. There’s nowhere near enough rich people to fund European quasi-socialism, even if you take every penny they’ve got. The pool of money in the US lies with people who make 40-70k, simply because there’s so many of them. If we want things like socialized medicine/childcare/universities like they do in some European countries, politicians should be honest and let people know that they’ve gotta tax TF out of the middle class to make it happen.

I’m all for it, even without social programs involved. Tax the poor! And none of this paycheck withholding crap either, let them save up and send it in every quarter or have some IRS goons show up at their front door. Give them a taste of how the other half REALLY lives.

In this vein, I started a thread almost ten years ago titled "Who Pays for Big Government," pointing out that the graph in the opening post may come as a big surprise to some progressives. Here it is:

https://eccie.net/showthread.php?t=1325605

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by Texas Contrarian

In this vein, I started a thread almost ten years ago titled "Who Pays for Big Government," pointing out that the graph in the opening post may come as a big surprise to some progressives. Here it is:

https://eccie.net/showthread.php?t=1325605

For those too lazy to click, from your old post. This is from a blog on the New York Times website:



To those who would point out this is from 2005 -- Since then the Bush tax cuts were extended for all but upper income taxpayers, and the TCJA in 2017 made the system more progressive. So if anything taxpayers in the upper deciles are paying more compared to payers in lower deciles.

[txdot-guy]

Originally Posted by Tiny

For those too lazy to click, from your old post. This is from a blog on the New York Times website:



To those who would point out this is from 2005 -- Since then the Bush tax cuts were extended for all but upper income taxpayers, and the TCJA in 2017 made the system more progressive. So if anything taxpayers in the upper deciles are paying more compared to payers in lower deciles.

That’s true but I have a feeling that poor people are getting poorer faster than the middle classes are getting richer. If you want to get more taxes out of our lower income classes then we need to figure out a way to pay them more or to make their lives easier without giving them more tax breaks.

I know that helping the banking industry make more money won’t do it. But when the CFPB tried to rein in some of the worst banking practices some people went crazy and sued to defund it. Or helping the Credit Card companies place a hidden fee on all of our purchases won’t help. Or creating a tax system so complex that we created a new industry necessary to file our taxes. There are all kinds of changes that we can make that will make the lives and finances of our working class better without giving out tax breaks.

I’ve always felt that our government should be spending more time fixing some of our financial problems which are created by poor laws and poor regulations rather than just giving tax breaks or giving out grants.

The IRS’s program to create an online tax preparation program is a good idea for instance. Creating a cash app or debit platform that would replace debit cards would also be a good idea. I don’t think that paying a 2 percent fee to Visa just to take a debit card helps anyone but the credit card companies.

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by txdot-guy

That’s true but I have a feeling that poor people are getting poorer faster than the middle classes are getting richer. If you want to get more taxes out of our lower income classes then we need to figure out a way to pay them more or to make their lives easier without giving them more tax breaks.

I know that helping the banking industry make more money won’t do it. But when the CFPB tried to rein in some of the worst banking practices some people went crazy and sued to defund it. Or helping the Credit Card companies place a hidden fee on all of our purchases won’t help. Or creating a tax system so complex that we created a new industry necessary to file our taxes. There are all kinds of changes that we can make that will make the lives and finances of our working class better without giving out tax breaks.

I’ve always felt that our government should be spending more time fixing some of our financial problems which are created by poor laws and poor regulations rather than just giving tax breaks or giving out grants.

The IRS’s program to create an online tax preparation program is a good idea for instance. Creating a cash app or debit platform that would replace debit cards would also be a good idea. I don’t think that paying a 2 percent fee to Visa just to take a debit card helps anyone but the credit card companies.

Poor laws, poor regulations, a ridiculously complicated tax system that gives special treatment to special interests, all badly need reforming. Brazil has instituted a QR system like what you're describing to replace credit and debit cards.

Unfunded Social Security and Medicare liabilities are what are really going to bust the budget in the long term. How about fixing that, and making the tax distribution in the USA look a bit more like France's? But instead of doing it with sales or value added taxes, do it by having employers and employees contribute to personal savings accounts that fund retirement, health costs, education and buying a house? The money doesn't go into a bottomless pit in Washington, D.C. Rather it goes into peoples' personal accounts, like a combination IRA/HSA/ESA. Singapore, arguably the wealthiest country in the world per capita, is doing it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Provident_Fund

It's not cheap. The total contributions from employers and employees total 37% up to age 55. It's doable though. I was saving half of what I made when I was making $30,000 a year.