The 8th Amendment In The Bill Of Rights.

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by txdot-guy

Donald Trump’s net worth is estimated at 2.6 billion dollars.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth...golf%20courses.

Donald Trump now owes a half a billion dollars in fines and that’s a considerable fraction of his net worth. However I’m not shedding any tears over it. Better a rich man with all the power that comes with it and all the legal representation he would want is fined a large portion of his wealth than a poor man with no legal representation and no money gets sent to death row.

Doesn’t anyone remember the Central Park Five? Trump advocated for the death penalty for five innocent men and refused to admit his error when they were exonerated years later.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Park_jogger_case

So he is losing some money. Boo Hoo

Yeah, we could compile a list of people who have gotten fucked by the American judicial system. And I have a lot more sympathy for people who were executed for crimes they didn't commit and people who languish in jail for decades for nonviolent drug crimes than I do for Trump. I'd argue the latter is contrary to the 8th amendment as well. The former is too -- capital punishment should be done away with. Trump's advertisement where he promoted execution of the Central Park Five, and his failure to admit he was wrong is, in the words of Salty, sad.

However, two wrongs don't make a right. You and I may not relate to members of the National Socialist Party of America (Nazis) who marched through the village of Skokie, Illinois, but hopefully we'd both defend their constitutional right to do it. I'm not calling Trump a Nazi btw, just throwing this out as an illustration. Regardless of your view of the man, he should be entitled to fair treatment.

Originally Posted by eccieuser9500

If it's not even going to cover what he owes, how the fuck is it excessive? Sir.

I get the karma argument eccieuser. Having read two biographies about Trump before he became president, I could probably make it better than you. He frittered away $900 million of his bondholders money in Atlantic City. He defaulted on $300 million in loans, part of which was eventually actually paid off, associated with his Trump International Hotel & Tower in Chicago. While we feel honor bound to pay our debts, Trump, in his own words, believes he has "brilliantly used the laws of the country" to screw over creditors. He's also fucked over his vendors, investors and customers from time to time. Very possibly people and businesses have unfairly lost over $455 million (Engoron's $355 million fine + $100 million interest) to Trump.

But, again, two wrongs don't make a right. The banks knew full well going into their dealings with Trump that he was a liar. Trump's 2011 financial statement, supplied to Deutsche Bank, his biggest creditor, showed his net worth as $4.3 billion. Deutsche Bank marked it down to $2.4 billion:

https://fortune.com/2023/10/12/trump...bank-official/

And in 2019, the financial statement he gave to Deutsche Bank showed his net worth at $5.8 billion. Deutsche marked it down to $2.5 billion.

https://fortune.com/2023/11/29/donal...aims-auditing/

The banks weren't deceived. The banks didn't lose money on the loans questioned by Engoron, or at least I don't think they did. (I haven't read the decision.) Trump doesn't deserve to pay $455 million for charges brought by Letitia James. The state of New York doesn't deserve the $455 million for shaking him down. This is bull shit, although, admittedly, as highlighted by txdot, Trump's not the only one who's gotten screwed over by our judicial system. By a long shot.

What stinks about this is the political aspect. There are a lot of shady businessmen who mostly stay within the letter of the law. And they're not getting fined 20% of their net worth. Trump's a very unpopular politician in New York, and that's why they went after him.

[yeahsurewhatev]

Originally Posted by Tiny

Yeah, we could compile a list of people who have gotten fucked by the American judicial system. And I have a lot more sympathy for people who were executed for crimes they didn't commit and people who languish in jail for decades for nonviolent drug crimes than I do for Trump. I'd argue the latter is contrary to the 8th amendment as well. The former is too -- capital punishment should be done away with. Trump's advertisement where he promoted execution of the Central Park Five, and his failure to admit he was wrong is, in the words of Salty, sad.

However, two wrongs don't make a right. You and I may not relate to members of the National Socialist Party of America (Nazis) who marched through the village of Skokie, Illinois, but hopefully we'd both defend their constitutional right to do it. I'm not calling Trump a Nazi btw, just throwing this out as an illustration. Regardless of your view of the man, he should be entitled to fair treatment.



I get the karma argument eccieuser. Having read two biographies about Trump before he became president, I could probably make it better than you. He frittered away $900 million of his bondholders money in Atlantic City. He defaulted on $300 million in loans, part of which was eventually actually paid off, associated with his Trump International Hotel & Tower in Chicago. While we feel honor bound to pay our debts, Trump, in his own words, believes he has "brilliantly used the laws of the country" to screw over creditors. He's also fucked over his vendors, investors and customers from time to time. Very possibly people and businesses have unfairly lost over $455 million (Engoron's $355 million fine + $100 million interest) to Trump.

But, again, two wrongs don't make a right. The banks knew full well going into their dealings with Trump that he was a liar. Trump's 2011 financial statement, supplied to Deutsche Bank, his biggest creditor, showed his net worth as $4.3 billion. Deutsche Bank marked it down to $2.4 billion:

https://fortune.com/2023/10/12/trump...bank-official/

And in 2019, the financial statement he gave to Deutsche Bank showed his net worth at $5.8 billion. Deutsche marked it down to $2.5 billion.

https://fortune.com/2023/11/29/donal...aims-auditing/

The banks weren't deceived. The banks didn't lose money on the loans questioned by Engoron, or at least I don't think they did. (I haven't read the decision.) Trump doesn't deserve to pay $455 million for charges brought by Letitia James. The state of New York doesn't deserve the $455 million for shaking him down. This is bull shit, although, admittedly, as highlighted by txdot, Trump's not the only one who's gotten screwed over by our judicial system. By a long shot.

What stinks about this is the political aspect. There are a lot of shady businessmen who mostly stay within the letter of the law. And they're not getting fined 20% of their net worth. Trump's a very unpopular politician in New York, and that's why they went after him.

Thanks for admitting the crux of the matter: to deem the fine excessive, you have to understand the reasoning behind it. Here you go.

[VitaMan]

MAGAs continue to deny Trumps lies.
They can't understand the statute and law did not require a trial by jury.
They haven't read the 92 page summary judgement.
The only question is: why do they support him ?


Meanwhile, Mr. Trump keeps banging away:

[1blackman1]

He was treated fairly. He had lawyers. He had an opportunity to admit wrongdoing and negotiate with the state for something far less than 250 mil. He decided to continue litigating and he lost, knowing full well that he lied repeatedly on form after form. As noted in my last post, there were two obvious and undisputed overvaluations. Those don't even require some genius mathematician to figure out. And unless Trump and his employees thought feet were yards and did some ridiculous miscalculation having property size increase by 300%, they simply lied in hopes of not getting caught. But they were.

There is no comparison between someone being executed for a crime they didn't commit and Trump being punished for something he actually did. Though I don't believe drug crimes should have lengthy sentences for relatively small amounts, drug dealers know they can be jailed for lengthy periods and choose to break the law regardless. So there's that. Trump lied, was caught and was punished.

Y'all should stop all the childish faux indignance.

[VitaMan]

This was a civil trial. Trump had every chance to defend himself.
He failed miserably, and stormed out of court.


Trump now has to pay a fine, and is suspended for 3 years.


Exactly like a speeder who gets a speeding ticket and has their license suspended.
The amount of the fine depends how egregious the speeding was.


There is no "victim".

[ICU 812]

Originally Posted by VitaMan

They haven't read the 92 page summary judgement.
The only question is: why do they support him ?
]

I would support any Republican candidate that would commit to a de facto closure of our borders with Mexico and Canada. This is not the only issue important to me. It is just one example.

That only Mr. Trump is the only Republican pushing for that and is likely to be the Republican nominee pretty much settles it for me despite his obvious and widely discussed character flaws.

Recall that when President Clinton faced strong criticism for his egregious misogynist behavior, he still retained the support of feminist activists because, in their view, he was "right" on abortion. But that all came before the "Believe-The-Woman" movement andd "#MeToo".

[VitaMan]

Clinton is anything but a "misogynist"


Misogynist:

a person who hates women

[Tigbitties38]

It looks like the excessive fine clause in the 8th doesn't apply to civil cases. It looks like it falls under due process in the 14th.
Browning-Ferris Industries of Vermont, Inc. v. Kelco Disposal, Inc., 492 U.S. 257 (1989), the Supreme Court ruled that the Excessive Fines Clause does not apply "when the government neither has prosecuted the action nor has any right to receive a share of the damages awarded". While punitive damages in civil cases are not covered by the Excessive Fines Clause, such damages were held to be covered by the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, notably in State Farm Mutual Automobile Insurance Co. v. Campbell, 538 U.S. 408 (2003).[24]

Originally Posted by 1blackman1

Interesting. We will see if this argument applies to civil judgments. I highly doubt it. And his placing a bond for appeal is standard practice, again I highly doubt the eighth amendment would be applicable there either. In fact, I’ll go out on a very short limb and say NOPE.

That’s was just talk for a very dumb and uneducated trump supporting crowd on Fox. Not surprising that a bunch of idiots would be whining that trump’s civil rights were violated. They weren’t. His lawyers lost at the summary judgment hearing. There’s no requirement that any civil matter go to a “trier of fact” when the facts aren’t in dispute. It’s pretty obvious that Trumps apartment was 1/3 the size he listed. Which is clearly a lie and fraud intended to increase its value. And it’s obvious that rentals that are rent controlled yield a specific value regardless of what market rent for similar properties might be. Again, a lie by trump intended to increase its value. Those are two clear uncontroverted instances of fraud, which the judge pointed to in finding for summary judgment. No violation of his rights there.

Then he was fined 355 mil. No violation of his civil rights. Maybe the appeals court will lower the amount. Fine. Happens every day but no violation of due process or rights. He will have to post bond sufficient to cover the judgment to make his appeal, that’s the same process for every person across the US.

[oilfieldace]

Originally Posted by winn dixie

More than likely before the interview trump could not have recited the 8th.
Laura prolly advised him with that paper and New excuse he's being picked on.
Anyone can see that
Indeed

So you are saying , fuck the constitution when it doesn’t mesh with your TDS? Or anytime it doesn’t match your liberal agenda?

[VitaMan]

This doesn't match with anything

[winn dixie]

Originally Posted by oilfieldace

So you are saying , fuck the constitution when it doesn’t mesh with your TDS? Or anytime it doesn’t match your liberal agenda?

Trumpf trying to hide behind the eighth is hilarious. Me being a liberal is even funnier. His constitutional rights have not been violated. Irony is he's trying to abuse his constitutional rights.

[eccieuser9500]

Originally Posted by yeahsurewhatev

Thanks for admitting the crux of the matter: to deem the fine excessive, you have to understand the reasoning behind it. Here you go.

Thank you.

. . . all defendants are liable for the conspiracy . . .

DISGORGEMENT OF ILL-GOTTEN GAINS

[W]here, as here, there is a claim based on fraudulent activity, disgorgement may be available as an equitable remedy, notwithstanding the absence of loss to individuals or independent claims for restitution. Disgorgement is distinct from the remedy of restitution because it focuses on the gain to the wrongdoer as opposed to the loss to the victim. Thus, disgorgement aims to deter wrongdoing by preventing the wrongdoer from retaining ill-gotten gains from fraudulent conduct. Accordingly, the remedy of disgorgement does not require a showing or allegation of direct losses to consumers or the public; the source of the ill-gotten gains is “immaterial.”

Here you go: discorgement

[Yssup Rider]

Originally Posted by oilfieldace

So you are saying , fuck the constitution when it doesn’t mesh with your TDS? Or anytime it doesn’t match your liberal agenda?

Trump has wiped his ass with the Constitution more times than any of us can imagine. He'd have flushed it had the bowl not already been clogged with undigested KFC and official government documents.

And let's not get started on his sacred relationship with the Holy Bible.

But that's not the topic of this thread, is it.

No need to be rude about it, bud.

[eccieuser9500]

Originally Posted by oilfieldace

So you are saying , fuck the constitution when it doesn’t mesh with your TDS? Or anytime it doesn’t match your liberal agenda?

Originally Posted by winn dixie

Trumpf trying to hide behind the eighth is hilarious. Me being a liberal is even funnier. His constitutional rights have not been violated. Irony is he's trying to abuse his constitutional rights.

So you're saying, I mean I'm hearing you are a liberal.

[winn dixie]