A proud Democrat, and a patriot, too, despite what Trump says.

[Lapdog]

Originally Posted by Tiny

I'll direct this to Muy Largo, but would be just as interested in replies from SR, MM, Lapdog, and others who are Democrats or left of center.

About the two issues I highlighted above, which are important to you: The Republican Party historically has been much friendlier to free enterprise than the Democratic Party. And of the minority of federal politicians who actually support "a frugal, lean and service-oriented government, not a bloated government that feeds on special interest extravagance", more often than not, they're Republicans.

Given that, could you see yourself voting for a Republican after the Divider in Chief is history? More specifically, which of the following, if any, could you support --

1. Republicans who had the backbone to criticize and sometimes oppose Trump, like Mitt Romney, Jeff Flake, John Kasich, maybe Susan Collins?

2. As you know, most politicians, Democrat and Republican, will sell their souls for a handful of votes or dollars or more power. And Trump had the power to torpedo the career of people who didn't tow his line, and wasn't afraid to use it. There are certain Republicans like Ted Cruz and Lindsey Graham who recognized problems with Trump's character and views. In their hearts they know what's right, but they sold out. Could you support them?

3. To be complete, I'll throw out the third category, people like Jeff Sessions who supported him from the start, although I know what your answer will be.

Yes, I would go back. I've never been all that political anyway. Romney, Kasich, Flake and Collins, probably. Cruz, Graham, no. They're sellouts. Sessions, no. I would like us to return to the world stage with a strong leader, not a laughing stock who is the butt of jokes.

[HedonistForever]

Originally Posted by Grace Preston

If the majority of Democrats support the "Marxist Socialist" part of the platform....


then why wasn't Bernie the nominee?




Just something to ponder. Yeah-- the Marxist Socialists are the loudest in the party right now... but a lot of the loudest Republicans are pretty out there as well. There is a silent majority on both sides of the political fence.


One more thing-- I've seen a lot of people on both sides who wish for the other side to just disappear. Wanting an entire political faction to disappear is not Patriotism.. its Nationalism and its a dangerous slope.

Where have you been? I'm starting to think I'll have to relinquish my title of "Voice of Reason" which I admittedly gave myself.


Your first question is intelligent and thought provoking and here is my best answer. The majority obviously didn't support the Bernie platform but are now saying ( my opinion of course ) that Bernie's ideas, hell, pretty much anything will be better than Trump. I think that is a fair assessment. The question is, again, IMHO, the Democrats are starting to find out that they didn't vote for the Bernie wing of the party but that is what they are getting and they will have no choice but to accept that because AGAIN, Trump must be defeated.


I'm asking people like SR if that is true or not and SR I think, has stated that it isn't true, that Biden will not move the party as far left as Bernie but what I am hearing and reading in Biden's platform leads me to believe it is true. Will the people that did not vote for Bernie, now accept "predominately" Bernie's ideas?


Who are these loudest Republicans and what are they saying that is so far out of the mainstream? I think Trump's voice is out of the mainstream. I have said before, some of the things he says, makes me cringe but basically his policies fall in line with mine and we have clearly seen that there is no chance in Hell of Trump becoming a dictator because neither Congress or the courts are inclined to do so, so that has never been a concern of mine.


As silent majorities go, again an opinion, the most silent are Republicans. I don't think very many, but believe there are some Democrats who feel any hesitation at all to say who they are voting for but Republicans, now that's a different story. There is a thread about Penn. voters not saying who they are really voting for and I believe that is because nobody that will eventually vote for Trump wants to be called a racist and possibly lose their job for supporting Trump. That's how toxic this race has gotten.


As in all things, I could be wrong.

[Muy Largo]

I signed up to receive campaign information emailed from both the Biden and Trump campaigns. Trump's email communications are absurdly shallow and the content is often misleading. I suggest anyone on here sign up for the campaigns and start paying attention to what the campaigns say. In addition to spewing his regular stream of simplistic, divisive vomit-speak, Trump spends at least half of the 3-5 emails I receive per day from him trying to sell me something. The commodification of voters as displayed through the Trump campaign is the height of disingenuous campaigning and greedy merchandising. Hats, welcome mats, pennants, banners, children's coloring books, certificates identifying the recipient as one of Trump's top 100 citizen patriots -- all for sale through this heroic, public-spirited figure, and very aggressively marketed using flattering comments to entice Trump's myopic supporters. Pathetic.

[HedonistForever]

Originally Posted by SpeedRacerXXX

To you it is either black or white. A person who votes for Trump is either a patriot to America or hates America based on whether the person making the assessment is on the left or the right. That is so wrong.

You will vote for Trump. I will vote for Biden. I'm sure that both of us love this country equally. I will probably disagree with many of your reasons for supporting Trump as you will disagree with many of my reasons for supporting Biden.

There are at least 20 issues on the minds of voters that will impact their vote.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/276932/...-election.aspx

I have little idea how you feel on each issue and you have little idea how I feel on each issue. And which candidate in all honesty would be best to address each issue. I have said that I believe Trump will bring back the economy faster than Biden, although I don't necessarily agree with how he will do it.

I don't stereotype Trump supporters. Yet since I am slightly left of center politically I have been stereotyped with those on the extreme left.

And I am perhaps more than slightly right of center than you are left, have been politically stereotyped with those on the extreme right and yet I have said Trump should never have gotten into a discussion of the Confederate flag and Confederate statues, should not have said "there are fine people on both sides" even though I believe he was talking about the question of statues and not White Supremacists, he should have better common sense and think more careful the words he uses.


So once again, we both perceive ourselves as being un-fairly stereotyped. Seems to be a lot of that going around.

[matchingmole]

Originally Posted by Muy Largo

I signed up to receive campaign information emailed from both the Biden and Trump campaigns. Trump's email communications are absurdly shallow and the content is often misleading. I suggest anyone on here sign up for the campaigns and start paying attention to what the campaigns say. In addition to spewing his regular stream of simplistic, divisive vomit-speak, Trump spends at least half of the 3-5 emails I receive per day from him trying to sell me something. The commodification of voters as displayed through the Trump campaign is the height of disingenuous campaigning and greedy merchandising. Hats, welcome mats, pennants, banners, children's coloring books, certificates identifying the recipient as one of Trump's top 100 citizen patriots -- all for sale through this heroic, public-spirited figure, and very aggressively marketed using flattering comments to entice Trump's myopic supporters. Pathetic.

[Grace Preston]

Originally Posted by Tiny

I'll direct this to Muy Largo, but would be just as interested in replies from SR, MM, Lapdog, and others who are Democrats or left of center.

About the two issues I highlighted above, which are important to you: The Republican Party historically has been much friendlier to free enterprise than the Democratic Party. And of the minority of federal politicians who actually support "a frugal, lean and service-oriented government, not a bloated government that feeds on special interest extravagance", more often than not, they're Republicans.


Yes and no. Republicans have always been extremely friendly towards big business-- corporations, and publicly traded entities. However, many of their policies in the past have been extremely damaging to small business and "Main Street USA" (Trickle down economics was a boon to Walmart and other large chains.. but decimated a ton of small businesses who could no longer compete due to tax breaks and abatements that the big guys qualified for.. but they couldn't)


Both parties are just playing the game when they talk about fighting bloat-- they will each gladly fill their coffers when its a thing that interests them.


Given that, could you see yourself voting for a Republican after the Divider in Chief is history? More specifically, which of the following, if any, could you support --

1. Republicans who had the backbone to criticize and sometimes oppose Trump, like Mitt Romney, Jeff Flake, John Kasich, maybe Susan Collins?


I've voted on both sides of the ticket numerous times. I've directly supported Kasich in the past, for example. I also voted for Rubio in the primary in 2016.


2. As you know, most politicians, Democrat and Republican, will sell their souls for a handful of votes or dollars or more power. And Trump had the power to torpedo the career of people who didn't tow his line, and wasn't afraid to use it. There are certain Republicans like Ted Cruz and Lindsey Graham who recognized problems with Trump's character and views. In their hearts they know what's right, but they sold out. Could you support them?


I've met Ted Cruz... he's a self serving asshole, full stop. He will absolutely sell his soul if it means he gets to stay in office.. and I've never had an ounce of respect for Graham. Short answer-- no. If they honestly feel Trump is right-- then I question their judgment. If they honestly feel Trump is wrong, but say nothing-- then I question their integrity. Now-- don't get me wrong... Trump isn't wrong about everything. There are some areas of government he does quite well with. But-- its the areas that he gets wrong that are too much for me to be a supporter. I'm likely going to undervote this time around-- as I can't really support either candidate.


3. To be complete, I'll throw out the third category, people like Jeff Sessions who supported him from the start, although I know what your answer will be.

To be fair-- those who have supported him from the start are mostly people I would never have supported anyhow-- so there's really no need for a drawn out answer.

[HedonistForever]

Originally Posted by SpeedRacerXXX

First, I was not responding to your post but to the post of Fred.

I really don't know what the majority of those on the left feel about those on the right when it comes to race issues.



Seems strange since you look at so many polls. I'm going by what I hear and read. I believe it disingenuous and a bit naive to say that you don't now what a majority of Democrats think on the issue of race as far as Republicans are concerned. You can't read the NYT or WaPo or watch MSM and come away with any idea other than Republicans and especially those that voted for Trump are racists and in you last sentence you admit that is what you believe, that Republicans "don't care about people of color" and I think you consider yourself a mainstream Democrat. I don't want to speak for anybody but myself but I care for all people but speaking those words proves to many, that means I don't care about people of color which is preposterous. If I say all and not Black, it means I don't care about people of color and I reject that categorically.



I don't think Trump is a racist. I do think he makes comments that can be viewed as either racist or in the least insensitive how his comments will be viewed by people of color.


Yes, I believe that is how he is perceived but you just admitted you don't think he is a racist and neither do I. He is inarticulate and somewhat bombastic in his words which makes him his own worst enemy but you must look at his deeds and not his words in my opinion.



Personally, I have never heard any of my friends who are on the left make a summary judgement by calling all those on the right racist. Or anything close to that. I certainly have not.



I'll take your word for it but I believe you and your close friends do not represent the majority. Just an opinion.


What I do honestly believe is that more people on the left are concerned with the lives of others than those on the right -- whether it is people of color, the LGBTQ community, the poor, refugees, support for those suffering in other countries, etc.

Can I care for and support those suffering in other countries without opening our borders to any number of people that want to come because it seems like that is the dividing line. You express any idea of controlled borders and all of a sudden, you don't care. How about I care for those already here and what over population can due to any country. I keep asking and have never gotten an answer. How many more can we take without adversely impacting our health care, our education and our job numbers? As soon as I ask that, I'm labeled as I don't care. I'm simply asking for a number and when I don't get one, I admittedly think they don't care.

[Lapdog]

Originally Posted by Muy Largo

I signed up to receive campaign information emailed from both the Biden and Trump campaigns. Trump's email communications are absurdly shallow and the content is often misleading. I suggest anyone on here sign up for the campaigns and start paying attention to what the campaigns say. In addition to spewing his regular stream of simplistic, divisive vomit-speak, Trump spends at least half of the 3-5 emails I receive per day from him trying to sell me something. The commodification of voters as displayed through the Trump campaign is the height of disingenuous campaigning and greedy merchandising. Hats, welcome mats, pennants, banners, children's coloring books, certificates identifying the recipient as one of Trump's top 100 citizen patriots -- all for sale through this heroic, public-spirited figure, and very aggressively marketed using flattering comments to entice Trump's myopic supporters. Pathetic.

You're a braver man than I am, Largo. I wouldn't get on that asshole's mailing list and call attention to myself like that for any amount.

[matchingmole]

[SecretE]

Originally Posted by Muy Largo

I shrug when I hear him say that AOC is taking over the Democratic Party. Nope, not happening. Neither is Stacey Abrams or Bernie Sanders taking over the party.

The "progressive" candidates have been winning more of the primaries. Biden had to make a pact with Sanders on a platform, in an attempt to "unite" the party. They may not be in charge yet, but they are well on their way.

[Tiny]

Good post, thanks for that. I strongly disagree with this part,

Originally Posted by Grace Preston

Yes and no. Republicans have always been extremely friendly towards big business-- corporations, and publicly traded entities. However, many of their policies in the past have been extremely damaging to small business and "Main Street USA" (Trickle down economics was a boon to Walmart and other large chains.. but decimated a ton of small businesses who could no longer compete due to tax breaks and abatements that the big guys qualified for.. but they couldn't)

The little guys got decimated because they couldn't compete with Walmart and others. The end result is that consumers pay less for products than they did before.

As to tax breaks and abatements granted to specific large companies or industries, the Republicans and Democrats have been equally to blame IMHO. They've both been bought off. And those corporations that weren't paying off the lobbyists didn't fare particularly well. At the start of the Trump administration, the average federal + state headline corporate tax rate was 39%, considerably higher than any other developed country.


"Trickle down economics" is a term used by Democrats to refer to tax simplification and to flatter or less progressive taxation. The last time this really happened was under Clinton, when he wisely lowered the capital gains tax rate, and under Reagan when he instituted a flat federal income tax rate of 28% on upper income earners. Reagan's changes were very beneficial to small businessmen, because they retained more after tax dollars, which they could use to invest in expanding their businesses. And this helped the economy in general. Clinton's change was good because he correctly recognized that when you lower the capital gains tax, you can actually increase government revenues from the tax. And everybody ends up better off when that happens.

George W. Bush's tax cuts didn't really make the tax system less progressive, as everyone's taxes were lowered. Same for Trump's cuts for individuals. Where you do have a good point perhaps is with respect to Trump's tax cuts for corporations and small businesses. The corporate federal tax rate was cut from 35% to 21%. The rate needed to be cut, and in fact Obama came close to pushing for a reduction to around 27% or 28% but it never happened. Anyway, getting back to the Trump cuts, smaller pass through businesses got tax cuts as well, but not as generous as those for corporations. The lucky ones, which included some rental real estate businesses with large depreciation, like Trump's, saw their rates go from 39.6% to 29.6%. The really small businesses got a comparable benefit. However many medium-sized pass through business ended up with only small benefits, so yes, it may be fair to say Trump's cuts helped the big businesses more than the small ones.

[Grace Preston]

And honestly, I don't criticize Trump for his tax cuts. He came into this as a man with a very large business empire built mostly on the back of real estate. I'd be shocked to my core if his tax cuts didn't benefit that group the most... not because of anything nefarious-- but because, that's what he knows best.


Economically-- he's been good for the majority of the country-- BUT... I happen to live in one of two states that saw net job LOSS during his first 3 years (I won't count numbers post COVID-- this is all pre-pandemic shutdown) . He's avoided returning to Youngstown because of the promises made that weren't even remotely kept (not all his fault.. but don't promise things you can't deliver). The other state with net job loss isn't at risk for him.. but Ohio is going to be in play and it will be interesting to see which way it goes.



My industry (outside of the adult industry) is one that while jobs are plentiful-- wages are stagnant and have been stagnant for quite some time. I've had a multitude of job offers that have all been lower than what I made in 2008.... and my industry, in general, is desperate for people with my experience and skill set. Meaning.. the wages for the lesser experienced... are pretty abysmal.



I'm glad that some people have seen an economic boom from Trump and his policies... but I live in a place where I can see plenty of people who are worse off now than they were 5 years ago.

[the_real_Barleycorn]

Originally Posted by SpeedRacerXXX

First, I was not responding to your post but to the post of Fred.

I really don't know what the majority of those on the left feel about those on the right when it comes to race issues. I don't think Trump is a racist. I do think he makes comments that can be viewed as either racist or in the least insensitive how his comments will be viewed by people of color. Personally, I have never heard any of my friends who are on the left make a summary judgement by calling all those on the right racist. Or anything close to that. I certainly have not.

What I do honestly believe is that more people on the left are concerned with the lives of others than those on the right -- whether it is people of color, the LGBTQ community, the poor, refugees, support for those suffering in other countries, etc.

I would say that people on the right are more indifferent to individuals and more concerned with issues contributing to each other's success. It's like having stray animals eating on your back porch. Giving them food everyday is not really doing them a big favor. Finding somewhere for them to live is the best solution. The left should be more concerned with good education (school choice, better teachers, and student discipline), jobs, and safe streets. Instead they spend money on shiny things like naming streets and buildings after black people and giving away other people's money.

[the_real_Barleycorn]

Originally Posted by Muy Largo

I signed up to receive campaign information emailed from both the Biden and Trump campaigns. Trump's email communications are absurdly shallow and the content is often misleading. I suggest anyone on here sign up for the campaigns and start paying attention to what the campaigns say. In addition to spewing his regular stream of simplistic, divisive vomit-speak, Trump spends at least half of the 3-5 emails I receive per day from him trying to sell me something. The commodification of voters as displayed through the Trump campaign is the height of disingenuous campaigning and greedy merchandising. Hats, welcome mats, pennants, banners, children's coloring books, certificates identifying the recipient as one of Trump's top 100 citizen patriots -- all for sale through this heroic, public-spirited figure, and very aggressively marketed using flattering comments to entice Trump's myopic supporters. Pathetic.

But not one word about Sanders...I mean Biden's statement.

[matchingmole]