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Old 03-30-2011, 11:52 AM   #31
Rudyard K
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I'm a little bit confused with this statement. Take seat belts and motorcycle helmets. It seems to me that those who believe it is society's obligation to take care of folks who get injured because they weren't wearing them are also typically the ones who support the laws that require them.
While I think most folks have embraced seatbelts (at least here in the US), down here?...helmets for motorcycles is well short of a universal feeling (admittedly though, I do keep forgetting to include the damn yankee exclusion when talking with you. ).

I guess the essence is...my view (and if you want to call that conservative, that's ok with me) is that if you want more personal freedom...you need to take on more personal responsibility. The two go hand in hand. If you want more "someone needs to take care of me"...you need to sacrifice personal freedom.

I want to do whatever it is I want to do (as long as it does not overtly harm someone else)...and I'll handle all my own shit...and yes, nina...that is up to and including my own demise should that be the result. I want that same right for everyone.

There seems to be a point of view for some (and I would generally call that the liberal view)...that they also want everyone to be able to do whatever they want to do (again, as long as it does not overtly harm somone else)...but if they stumble, or fall in the shit as a result...and yes, even if their choices should result in their death...then it was somehow my shortcoming that allowed it to happen...or it is my obligation to make sure it does not happen or fix it. I don't agree.

Consequence for your own actions is a hell of a teacher. And if you don't learn it?...then fate will probably weed you out from the gene pool.

I've put my hand out to help someone more times than I can possibly remember...and I have been the recipient of a helping hand from others as oft as that. And for me, the former is a lot more gratifying than the latter. But it was my choice (not my obligation) to extend my hand to help those I have...and it was their choice (not their obligation) to those who have extended their's to me.

While living together as a society we can never totally let everyone stand on their own, we can give as much freedom to other's as they are willing to take on reponsibility...and require their compliance to rules and regulations for those things where they won't take on those responsibilities. Having a degree of freedom without an equal degree of responsibility...IMHO...just doesn't work.
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Old 03-30-2011, 11:58 AM   #32
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"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences."
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Old 03-30-2011, 01:05 PM   #33
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PJ quoting PJ. IDT HFCJr will ever get to this point.
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Old 03-30-2011, 01:08 PM   #34
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What? I can't quote myself? I thought it pretty succinctly summarized my thoughts on the entire thread.

I did debate how to post that one. In quotes with a link to the source seemed best.
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Old 03-30-2011, 01:45 PM   #35
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I did debate how to post that one. In quotes with a link to the source seemed best.
His first idea of a leather-bound volume with gilt-edged pages was thankfully reconsidered.
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Old 03-30-2011, 02:03 PM   #36
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PJ quoting PJ. IDT HFCJr will ever get to this point.
What the hell are you talking about?!!!! I'm a CONSERVATIVE, not a libertarian!!!!! We believe in some limits and some government!!... So, what the fuck are you telling me?!!! Are you saying that I have the right to gut the maniac like a fish, and as long as I serve 3 years in jail and 5 on proba-... .... .... ..... .....???? ..... ..... !!!



um.....never mind
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Old 03-30-2011, 02:10 PM   #37
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His first idea of a leather-bound volume with gilt-edged pages was thankfully reconsidered.
Gilting was too expensive.
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Old 03-30-2011, 02:27 PM   #38
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Default Course they both think their position unique...

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Originally Posted by Rudyard K View Post
While living together as a society we can never totally let everyone stand on their own, we can give as much freedom to other's as they are willing to take on reponsibility...and require their compliance to rules and regulations for those things where they won't take on those responsibilities. Having a degree of freedom without an equal degree of responsibility...IMHO...just doesn't work.
Nor does thinking that the so called conservatives approach is any different that the liberal one.



When it comes to charity I see very little difference in one's political slant.

The liberals want to tax you straight up, the conservatives want to be able to give to the church of their choice and write it off their taxes.

Isn't that basically WTF we are talking about?


Conservatives impose their will on social issues and liberals on monetary issues. Not much difference in regards to freedom and choice if you step back far enough ...
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Old 03-30-2011, 02:41 PM   #39
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Conservatives impose their will on social issues and liberals on monetary issues. Not much difference in regards to freedom and choice if you step back far enough ...
Hallelujah! WTF is becoming a libertarian.
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Old 03-30-2011, 02:49 PM   #40
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Hallelujah! WTF is becoming a libertarian.
Now he's one of yours.
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Old 03-30-2011, 02:56 PM   #41
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Hallelujah! WTF is becoming a libertarian.
Conservatives believe that society should be free from the consequences of your actions.......conservatives believe you should bear the consequences of your actions.....if there are no consequences for society to bear from your actions, have at it........

ie: child support laws.....you have a child out of wedlock...who should bear the burdens of that?......

Conservatism bases what it does on facts regarding human nature.....is not marriage better for men, women and children IN GENERAL?.....isn't the poverty rate for children born into an intact family lower?
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Old 03-30-2011, 03:06 PM   #42
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What the hell are you talking about?!!!! I'm a CONSERVATIVE, not a libertarian!!!!! We believe in some limits and some government!!... So, what the fuck are you telling me?!!! Are you saying that I have the right to gut the maniac like a fish, and as long as I serve 3 years in jail and 5 on proba-... .... .... ..... .....???? ..... ..... !!!



um.....never mind
Sarcasm can only get you so far. This is pushing the boundaries.
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Old 03-30-2011, 03:13 PM   #43
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When it comes to charity I see very little difference in one's political slant.

The liberals want to tax you straight up, the conservatives want to be able to give to the church of their choice and write it off their taxes.

...

Conservatives say it is your money, you earned it, you are free to decide how/where to give it if you so choose.....

liberals say the money you earned is not yours, politicians are your betters and will spend it for you....of course they will spend it in the manner which maximizes votes rather than maximizing good

Conservatives say that charity is not one of the enumerated powers given to the Federal government by the Constitution......

Conservatives put their trust in the collective decision making of 310M Americans rather than the politicians....

libertarians are anarchists.......

Conservatives believe in giving people the maximum freedom possible....libertarians belief in absolute freedom is unworkable......it's a utopia on the opposite extreme of communism.......
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Old 03-30-2011, 03:28 PM   #44
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libertarians are anarchists.......

Conservatives believe in giving people the maximum freedom possible....libertarians belief in absolute freedom is unworkable......it's a utopia on the opposite extreme of communism.......

[**Ducking, while awaiting PJ's response.**]
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Old 03-30-2011, 03:31 PM   #45
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Conservatives believe that society should be free from the consequences of your actions.......conservatives believe you should bear the consequences of your actions.....if there are no consequences for society to bear from your actions, have at it........

ie: child support laws.....you have a child out of wedlock...who should bear the burdens of that?......
Up to here, we are with you. The libertarian pov is pretty well summed up by "my" line I quoted:

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences."
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