In Defense of Pakistan

[Spacemtn]

Originally Posted by S O B

Screw Pakistan, Israel, and Palestine. Yes I saw the video the people on it are despicable. Those people are like the mexicans that burn US flags kill border patrol and Texan ranchers, but come illegally and demand rights, education and welfare. Just as I know you personally didn't kill Jesus. As an athiest I care not for wars over religions fictional books (bible Koran et al). Or wars and puppet support for geological presence in an area. Kosher and S O B can be friendly but both of our world views are scewed. ( Mods, when you p0int me please inform me of the points system parameters.) The Jesus comment was funny to me because you said 'we Jews', not Israel would meet.

S O B,
So far you haven't quite stepped over the line for points. You have danced close but you recover nicely and that makes our job much easier and we thank you.

The point system parameters are not published in the "public" areas of the site, but you can just follow the posting guidelines located here:

http://www.eccie.net/announcement.php?f=5

If you adhere to these posting guidelines, you should have no problem with points. Unless it is a flagrant offense, we usually issue a warning before points. I hope this is helpful.

Spacemtn

[theaustinescorts]

Originally Posted by KosherCowboy

Learn to live with it. That is fact and the way it will look for decades to come. And if ' we' need to take any more land like in Lebanon or elsewhere on the border where enemies set up shop we will. And there is nothing you or TAE can do about it.

I think this sums up the view of the Israeli right nicely. I also happen to agree with it partly because until now no one has moved to restrain Israel except for the Israelis themselves. They took a terrible beating at the hands of Hezbollah in Lebanon the last time around, and it has tempered them.

I don't think the map of Palestine will remain unchanged though for decades to come. The antipathy between Israelis and the Palestinians has hardened tremendously in the last few years, and the Hamas-Fatah alliance is a reflection of this. I think another kind of intefadah is in the offing, but this time with outside assistance. As the "Arab Spring" brings into being governments more responsive to Arab public opinion regarding Palestine these governments will not restrain their citizens from acting as they formerly have. Tomorrow Egypt will open up Gaza, and I'm certain with Mubarak gone the Egyptians will now be supplying Hamas with arms.
Mubarak prevented Egyptian military officers from aiding Hamas, but now they are free to do so.

btw as I've said before I have several friends in Israel, all Jewish buddies of mine from my former life in the diamond world. In my various trips to Israel the only people I met were Jewish, and most of them were from families which used to live in Belgium and The Netherlands. They are split about half and half between peaceniks and center-left. That's not unusual for Israelis with western European origins. None are Likud or far-right like Netanyahu or his spy friend Jonathan Pollard [who is in a US prison for life].

No one in Israel would dispute the list of facts I've provided. The only people who would object to them are Israel's backers in the US and other places outside of Israel.

To understand Israel is rather difficult without actually going there and spending a lot of time with Israelis. Without that it's impossible to sift through the propaganda all sides put forward to influence Americans.

Israel is a wonderful society with a robust democracy, press and acedemics which are more impartial than here, a justice system with more integrity than we have here, etc. etc.

But that doesn't change the dark manner in which it came about, or how it is sustained.

Athens and Sparta were both democracies too, but they both were savage and hegemonic to their lessor neighbors. The Roman democracy started out its imperial history by destroying Carthage in two terrible wars for no reason other than that Carthage was nearby and possessed prosperity that Romans were jealous of.

Just because a society is democratic and just within doesn't mean it's not terribly unjust to it's neighbors.

Otherwise anyone can go to wikipedia or any other source to see that it was the Soviet Union which brought Israel into being in the 1948 war, the history of the "Protocol of Sevres" in 1956, the Jonathan Pollard and USS Liberty affairs, and on and on... I don't think there can be any dispute for example that James Angleton dealt with all issues related to Mossad when he was Head of CI at CIA...

[theaustinescorts]

Earlier today Egypt opened the gate to Gaza.

Yesterday a leading figure in Fatah/Hamas announced that,

"A two-state solution is no longer acceptable. The only outcome which will solve the problems of Palestine will be a single, unified secular state."


Get ready for interesting times.

[Yssup Rider]

Yeah. MORE war, death and murder. INTERESTING!!

[KosherCowboy]

Originally Posted by theaustinescorts

They took a terrible beating at the hands of Hezbollah in Lebanon the last time around, and it has tempered them.

Tempered them not out of ' defeat' but the way the government handled the Hezbollah situation. You are well aware that those terror groups don't have a home state but find refuge in places like Syria and Iran where they are backed and can hide. For Israel to to destroy them would mean to go in to high density civilian areas where Hezbollah hides in, using innocents as human shields to hide their weapons and themselves from Israeli jets. Reality is, had Israel chosen to choke off all supply routes in from Syria and Iran to Hezbollah they could have, they could have chosen to gone in to Syria and destroyed the strongholds and depots for ammunition etc. However, Israel showed restraint, unleashed very little what they could have, this saved thousands of civilian lives. To limit the entire destruction of Lebanon's infrastructure and many lives of innocent civilians, Israel did not unleash the holy hell on the enemy in this war they could have, had their existence truly been at risk, they would have and could have easily done so.

No one in Israel would dispute the list of facts I've provided. The only people who would object to them are Israel's backers in the US and other places outside of Israel. btw as I've said before I have several friends in Israel, all Jewish buddies of mine from my former life in the diamond world.

I'd argue that point. I'd also think that your ' Israeli friends' and my Israeli family would never sit down for a Seder dinner together, light the Hanukkah candles nor dance during the Sukkot festivals. Many Israeli's have a negative view of the diamond business, feel they have a negative stigma to them, many ties to the Mafia and aren't held in the highest regard. Not shocked they are the group you relate to and consider ' mainstream.' Many of those diamonds come from S. Africa and the very oppression of the Palestinian folks you rant about faced the blacks in S. Africa; the diamond pushers in Israel didn't care about those blacks, just their money. On one side you are friends with these diamond dirt balls yet you claim the Palestinians are victims. I knew all these posts where you mentioned friends in Israel had a catch, diamonds !! It all comes out in the wash, looks like the ECCIE detergent worked just as fine as Tide or All.

To understand Israel is rather difficult without actually going there and spending a lot of time with Israelis. Without that it's impossible to sift through the propaganda all sides put forward to influence Americans.

Now here you are correct. I think America only knows what it sees on TV and has experienced the last 10-15 years. . America entered this war on 9/11. The Israeli/Palestinian conflict goes back to centuries before Americans had TV ( or even radio) and long before the Dutch discovered the landfills that would eventually expand Manhattan Island that would be the land that the World Trader Center was built on. As a young boy, I remember Arafat waiving victory for a bombing stepping off a plane a hero, Mom and Dad filled me in. The coverage on the Philadelphia newspaper was on page two or three not page one like today. The sleeping giant of America was woken up on 9/11 when it realized after Pan Am being blown to pieces that this terror is some serious shit that finally reached our shores. Nairobi, Riyadh, those were in another country, won't happen here, just make sure it stays in Europe in night clubs in Berlin and away from us and it's fine. Sure enough Americans finally woke up when the parking garages were bombed in the WTC and on 9/11, Americans finally came to understand. So I agree with you, Americans as a whole don't understand the middle east, its history or the fear both sides live in.

Much of the money used to fund the military comes from taxes and profits of the diamond business. So on one hand the diamond business exploited blacks in S. Africa ( your friends make profits) and these very profits often fund the military which you claim unjustly kills Palestinians. Hypocrites. These diamonds are tied in to the mob, the mob also runs much of the prostitution in Israel especially in Tel Aviv and Haifa. And speaking of running a business of prostitution..

never mind, it's all starting to come together now..

Shalom ( I hope your Israeli family/friends understand that word), mine do.

The Israeli Diamond Industry has blood on it's hands according to many both in Israel and Internationally, much like this Palestinian murderer who killed an innocent soldier on patrol whose weapon was not drawn.

[Yssup Rider]

Lets see. Former life in the DIAMOND WORLD. Current life in the prostitution world. Beginning to sound like the villian in a cheap Robert Ludlum knockoff.

Trying to figure this out and getting close.
.

[theaustinescorts]

So far all I'm hearing is insults and insinuations.

When I hear something that sounds like an argument I will reply.

Until now it stands that:

1.Israel was created by the war of independence in 1948 when Joseph Stalin armed Isreal against the Arabs because the creation of Israel was in the interest of the USSR, America's enemy.

2.A few years later in 1956 Israel launched the first of several aggressive wars of expansion when it entered into a conspiracy, the Protocol of Sevres, to attack Egypt in alliance with Britain the France.

3.Israel is a hostile country to the US.

a.Israel attacked a US Navy vessel in 1967 and lied about it.

b.Israel always spies on the US government, including their running of the most damaging Soviet spy against the US during the cold war, Jonathan Pollard. To the Israeli right Pollard is a hero because he betrayed the US in favor of Israel.

c.All Israeli intelligence interaction with CIA must pass directly through the CIA CounterIntelligence Chief directly because of their hostility to US security.*

4.The US has no mutual defense agreements with Israel, which belongs to no mutual defense alliances with the US.

5.Like their former partner the apartheid government of South Africa, Israel belongs to none of the international agreements preventing the proliferation of nuclear weapons. Israel's stockpile of nuclear weapons is in violation of all international laws pertaining to such.


I can continue this list on and on....


ps....
The diamond industry was the first international industry in Israel. Israeli diamond factories process diamonds from all sources, some legitimate and some not.

During the apartheid era in South Africa the only alliance that government had with any other country was with Israel. That alliance was extensive, and included not only arms sales between the two countries, but also a full exchange of nuclear technologies.

South Africa developed and tested their own nuclear bombs with the assistance of Israel in the 1970s. As well, South Africa made itself available to test Israeli-made nuclear bombs.

At the time there was no outcry in Israel over this relationship, anymore than there was any outcry over their alliance with the Juntas in Guatamala during the genocide there.

Israelis know they're an outlaw nation, and they accept that they must agree to whoever in the world will assist them even if it's the apartied government in S. Africa or the Juntas in Guatamala.

*After the Munich attack of 1972 the CIA formed a relationship with it's perpetrators, "Black September." Black September's leader, A. Salome, was protected 24 hours a day by CIA case officers who guarded him against Israeli assassination teams. These American officers thwarted seven different assassination attempts by Israeli agents.

[Yssup Rider]

I cannot say I am 100% in agreement with the governmebt of Israel. I never have been.

But i will say that i am 100% in disagreement with whose hate and fear mongering clouds their ability to think objectively.

[Booth]

Originally Posted by theaustinescorts

So far all I'm hearing is insults and insinuations.

Said the guy who wants the POTUS removed from office based on an armchair diagnosis of mental illness.

[Yssup Rider]

Sorry folks -- I left out a word before the cellphone went dead and the movie came on ...

Make that "I am 100% in disagreement with THOSE whose hate and fear mongering clouds their ability to think objectively."

That's better. And it bears repeating IMHO!

Counter-terrorism expert Richard A. Clarke (head of the counter-terrorism group under Reagan, Bush the first, Clinton AND Bush, the lesser) was on TV (Bill Maher, HBO, 5/13) and said that the Pakistani government was the biggest pack of pathological liars on earth. He said, "they lie so often that they no longer know that they're lying."

Pretty strong indictment from a guy that might know a thing or two about hookers, er, Pakistan!

[Munchmasterman]

Originally Posted by theaustinescorts

.Israel was created by the war of independence in 1948 when Joseph Stalin armed Isreal against the Arabs because the creation of Israel was in the interest of the USSR, America's enemy.

Not quite. The US first recognized Israel. The USSR 3 days later. The Czech arms were helpful but not the difference between victory and defeat.

2.A few years later in 1956 Israel launched the first of several aggressive wars of expansion when it entered into a conspiracy, the Protocol of Sevres, to attack Egypt in alliance with Britain the France.

Pre-emptive strikes. Remember that Iraqi reactor?

3.Israel is a hostile country to the US.

Not hostile. They put their own interests first, obviously. They do not run operations aimed at us with the intention of hurting us, but some have inflicted unintentional consequences.

a.Israel attacked a US Navy vessel in 1967 and lied about it.

b.Israel always spies on the US government, including their running of the most damaging Soviet spy against the US during the cold war, Jonathan Pollard. To the Israeli right Pollard is a hero because he betrayed the US in favor of Israel.

See above

c.All Israeli intelligence interaction with CIA must pass directly through the CIA CounterIntelligence Chief directly because of their hostility to US security.*

Proof?

4.The US has no mutual defense agreements with Israel, which belongs to no mutual defense alliances with the US.

5.Like their former partner the apartheid government of South Africa, Israel belongs to none of the international agreements preventing the proliferation of nuclear weapons. Israel's stockpile of nuclear weapons is in violation of all international laws pertaining to such.

While not condoning any actions it is easy to understand why 2 countries that both faced possible annihilation would support each other. Also easy to understand why they would not sign a treaty with countries that watched the fight for Israel’s birth and survival from the sidelines. South Africa has dismantled it’s own weapons at this point.


I can continue this list on and on....


ps....
The diamond industry was the first international industry in Israel. Israeli diamond factories process diamonds from all sources, some legitimate and some not.

During the apartheid era in South Africa the only alliance that government had with any other country was with Israel. That alliance was extensive, and included not only arms sales between the two countries, but also a full exchange of nuclear technologies.

See above.

South Africa developed and tested their own nuclear bombs with the assistance of Israel in the 1970s. As well, South Africa made itself available to test Israeli-made nuclear bombs.

The tests are suspected. This is no confirmation they occurred.

At the time there was no outcry in Israel over this relationship, anymore than there was any outcry over their alliance with the Juntas in Guatamala during the genocide there.

Israelis know they're an outlaw nation, and they accept that they must agree to whoever in the world will assist them even if it's the apartied government in S. Africa or the Juntas in Guatamala.

Israel knows they are ultimately on their own.

What did you do for the government while in Pakistan that involved diamonds? Why did you quit in 1986?

[theaustinescorts]

When the issue of recognition of Israel arose in 1947-48 all offices of the American government counseled Truman strongly not to do it. Those offices included the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the State Department, and the newly created National Security Counsel and the CIA. A few months later Truman did the opposite however, after an aide, Clark Clifford, brokered support for Truman in New York Precincts in exchange for recogniation of Israel. At the time, March 1948, Truman was expected to lose in a landslide against the former DA of New York, Tom Dewey. When Israel declared itself an independent state the US representative to the UN took the podium a few minutes later and announced US recognition. However it was clear to everyone, including Truman, that Israel would be attacked and crushed by Arab armies arrayed against it on all sides. It is impossible for Truman to have thought his recogition would have resulted in anything other than the massacre of the Israelis. When the Arabs attacked the Israelis had almost no arms. Many of the Arabs were armed with weapons the British purposely left for them when the British left [a poison pill in retaliation for terrorist acts committed by Israelis against the British]. The Israelis fell back again and again until the Soviet-supplied arms arrived, and then the tide turned quickly in favor of the Israelis. All historians I know of, based on testimony of the Israelis themselves, record that the Israelis would clearly have been crushed if it were not for the Czech arms.

All the Israeli-started wars of aggression were claimed as preemptive wars but all these claims are transparent.

Simply google "Protocol of Sevres" and you will see what really happened in 1956. I have already cited an article from International Security in 1997 regarding this, and no one in Israel fails to admit fully what happened. They attacked Egypt not as a preemptive action but as a PREVENTIVE one because Nasser was staging a Soviet-supplied build up to match the Israelis.

Similarly the 1967 Six Day War was claimed as preemptive but it was not. The Arabs were planning no attack in 1967. All historians have now recorded that the indications of a possible Arab attack in the Spring of 1967 were exaggerated and used a pretext to stage the Israeli attack.

The only time Israel was attacked first was in 1973 in the Yom Kippur War. And they almost were defeated were it not for rapid replenishment of their arms by the US.

The Israeli-South African alliance and nuclear testing is now fully exposed as the follow-on government in South Africa has released all the Aparteid government's records and files, and historians have written many books regarding the Israeli/S. African nuclear program and tests. Before the Aparteid government dissolved they destroyed their nuclear bombs and facilities because they didn't want them to fall into the hands of the follow-on government.

The nuclear testing program included more than one detonation, the first of which was detected by the US DPS [Defense Support Program] satellite system which observed a bright flash in the southern Indian Ocean. The Carter Administration convened an outside panel chaired by Jack Ruina from MIT to study the data. They announced the results from the DPS data inconclusive. However, other intelligence sources confirmed that what the DPS observed was indeed a nuclear detonation. There were numerous technical and human sources which confirmed that event as a test, and subsequently there were other tests below ground.

Israel is on there own...definitely yes.

But not because of "hate."

They are on their own because they have no moral or legal grounds to have built a non-secular state by taking land by force from others.

Because of this the US intelligence community has been at odds with Israel from the beginning. The Pollard case is only the most outrageous and public of these hostile episodes of the Israeli government seeking to damage US security. Simply google Jonathan Pollard and see what's available, or google "USS Liberty" and see what the Captain and crew of the Liberty have to say about being attacked by the Israel air force. They are the witnesses. They were there, not the liars who claim that the Israelis were merely making "a mistake."

I was brought into government work by a CIA agent, Dr. Walter Rostow, who was a neocon supporter of Israel. However he was the last person I met in government who had anything other than total antipathy for Israel. Among CIA officers there was so much antipathy for Israel that in 1972 the leader of Black September was protected by a detachment of CIA officers after Black September staged the attack on the Munich Olympics. These officers tangled with Israeli agents time and time again, and on at least one occassion the CIA personnel killed an Israeli agent. The same sorts of things happend between CIA personnel in central America in the 1980s and in Africa in the 1990s, where Israeli officers were supporting "rebels" trafficking in Blood Diamonds.

[Yssup Rider]

Originally Posted by theaustinescorts

They are on their own because they have no moral or legal grounds to have built a non-secular state by taking land by force from others.

What about every other nation that has occupied that land since Biblical days? Did they have a right?

Non-secular? Please. Israel is the closest thing to a secular state in that part of the world. Hell, in MOST parts of the world. (I know, that's just PR)

I wonder if Israel were to be pushed into the sea -- a position you with which you sympathize -- if the resulting state would be secular.

Legal grounds? What about the UN accord of 1948, establishing the State of Israel? Even if it was engineered by the USSR as you insist (which is silly, btw), does that give them a legal right to exist? How about the resolutions that created Iraq and half of Eastern Europe?

[theaustinescorts]

Originally Posted by Yssup Rider

What about every other nation that has occupied that land since Biblical days? Did they have a right?

Non-secular? Please. Israel is the closest thing to a secular state in that part of the world. Hell, in MOST parts of the world. (I know, that's just PR)

I wonder if Israel were to be pushed into the sea -- a position you with which you sympathize -- if the resulting state would be secular.

Legal grounds? What about the UN accord of 1948, establishing the State of Israel? Even if it was engineered by the USSR as you insist (which is silly, btw), does that give them a legal right to exist? How about the resolutions that created Iraq and half of Eastern Europe?

1.The UN partition plan in 1948 did not create any state. It merely divided Palestine into Jewish and non-Jewish sectors. Some [but not all] Jews in the Jewish sector declared themselves to be a state. Promptly thereafter the US announced recognition at the UN. Israel survived attack by the Arabs in the war of Independence, and then extended its national borders to include all areas taken in that war, which went well beyond the UN partition plan boundries. Those were the borders that remain today. Other lands taken and occupied in the 1967 war are simply occupied lands. What really codified Israel as a state was it's recognition by the Soviet Union, becasue not only did Stalin make sure they won their war for independence, but he also made sure that the UN would accept Israel as a member state.*

2.Needless to say Israel was established as a Jewish state. It permits non-Jews to be citizens and are represented in their Parliament, but it's still a Jewish state. One of the biggest threats to Israel is the simple demographics of non-Jewish birth rates. In a few decades non-Jews will probably outnumber Jews in Israel. For this reason Israel has been pulling out all the stops to increase Jewish immigration.

I am not a Palestinian Arab. I am an American.

The reason why I am a critic of Israel is because of their TREACHERY towards the United States.

The Israelis are expert at public relations. They've convinced most of the American public that they are our allies when they are not, and have succeed in selling our public on a narrative of their history which is a fiction.

John Mearsheimer and Kenneth Waltz are perhaps the two most distinguished living scholars in the field of international relations. Their recent work, "The Israeli Lobby" is now the acedemics' textbook on this issue.

But Americans need not read a four hundred page graduate-level scholarly work to understand this problem.

Just listen to what the American crewmen of the USS Liberty have to say about how the Israelis attacked them. Or look up "Jonathan Pollard Israeli spy" and see what comes up.

Or for that matter watch "Munich" by Steven Speilberg [or read the George Jonas book upon which it was based]. Jonas explains that the leader of Black September, A. Salome, was a CIA agent protected by a detail of CIA officers....why?

*It is likely that the UN will soon recognize a state composed of Palestinians living in the Israeli occupied lands. When that happens the Israelis will have new legal challenges to their occupation.

ps...In my former work I butted up against Mossad CONSTANTLY. First at Harvard where they were bribing students and Professors alike. Also, in San Antonio in 1984 where the they were running a huge base out of the Ashford Oaks building and the "Ariel Club" nextdoor. You needn't even leave the United States to run into illicit Mossad operations - they are right next to you.

[KosherCowboy]

Originally Posted by Yssup Rider

I wonder if Israel were to be pushed into the sea -- a position you with which you sympathize

That sounds rather anti-Semetic to me and if there is hatred towards Israel, I don't see equal number of posts from this person who claims to be non Arab or Palestinian ( interesting he found it needed to disclaim such) indicating hatred towards other governments and peoples who also truly hate America, not ' hate America' based on warped conspiracy theories.

I know he has bashed other governments of other countries in other threads but anti-Israeli posts outnumber those about 5,000,000 to one.

We've seen this throughout our history, we will always have anti-Semitic statements to deal with, despite their hatred, we persevere.

How about posting about Iran, North Korea, Hugo Chavez, Somalian Pirates, Yemen, the atrocities in Syria, and so on. Yeah, I know, it is easier to pick on the Jews..

and we are used to it and will deal with it.