We don't need no stinking papers

[Guest040616]

Originally Posted by carkido45

Putting white paint on an African American is rascist.
DTL you can put whatever spin you want on it but it's how it looks and it looks racist and is.
You refer to hispanic people as feral animals and your avatar has an African American with white paint on his face.
That's racism and bigotry and yet you can't see it.

CK45---Oh come now! You don't really expect him to admit in an open forum that his 'photoshopped' avatar has racial implications.

[Sweet Heather]

Sorry, but I disagree.

I think it's a good thing that desperate, poor people flood our country. We have all the resources in the world to help them-PLENTY of jobs for everyone. Car insurance? Poooh who needs it it's racist to expect them to have it. Can't afford housing because they work for slave wages and have 6 kids they can't feed? Just give 'em a house, we have plenty. Since both parents work and aren't around to supervise their 6 kids and they get in violent gangs? Pooh that's racist talk. I think we need to allow the entire worlds desperate, starving, uneducated people from all countrys to come here. We have plenty of housing, food, money for 'em all.

[texasjohn1965]

Originally Posted by carkido45

Oh look who joined you DTL one of your Klan brothers TexasJohn.
Boy I didn't see that coming .... yeah right.

So now I am a member of the Klan? You are a race baiter, and the race card is the only thing you have. The chip on your shoulder must be huge. Enjoy you hate.

[jacksparrow]

in this topic, there will always be two points of views. americans who think that the arizona law as racist as it is, it mean something else, and us hispanic who think that because of our skin color they will treat us as criminals ( when the majority of times we are not)

as much as we debate this fact will not change, I am not closed minded, but this is exactly as it is, and we are not taking your jobs, we are simply doing the jobs americans don't want to do for less. please accept, we are hard working people, of course there will always be some bad apples, but please mention a society that don't have them, there is none. punish the criminals, but because of our skin color, don't think we all are.

[texasjohn1965]

Jack, please humor me while I ask a few questions. You have presented yourself in a non-confrontational manor, and I wish to respond like wise. I want to take what you have written one line at a time, so I may be specific.


in this topic, there will always be two points of views.
There are atleast two sides, I suspect there are many more than two here.

americans who think that the arizona law as racist as it is,
Is there anything in the law that specifies the race of who should be checked, or is it just a pure statistical thing. When the largest portion of the citizenry stopped is hispanic, is it immediately biased?

it mean something else, and us hispanic who think that because of our skin color they will treat us as criminals ( when the majority of times we are not)
I dont mean to sound flip, but it seems this is all ready happening. If we can get rid of the illegal/criminal types, would the perceived persecution ease up?

as much as we debate this fact will not change, I am not closed minded,
I am ok with that statement, you seem like a rational person

but this is exactly as it is, and we are not taking your jobs,
If you did not do the job, who would? Would all the companies just fold?

we are simply doing the jobs americans don't want to do for less.
I am a construction worker, and more than half of the workers on site are hispanic. Are they underpaid? I dont think so. Many "white" workers struggle because they cant speak spanish. Some contractors wont hire someone unless they can speak spanish.

please accept, we are hard working people,
I agree completely. While working in Miami, I would have killed to get crew of hard working mexican-american construction guys. Unfortunately, all I could get were "island time" workers.

of course there will always be some bad apples,
Agreed, and I think the hispanic community would have a vested interest in cleaning up their own image.

but please mention a society that don't have them, there is none.
I can't, because you are correct.

punish the criminals,
The people that cross the border illegaly are criminals.

but because of our skin color, don't think we all are.
Never would.

I know how hard the immigration process is. I have been working for 18 months trying to bring in a foriegn national. I have spent a ton of money on fees and lawyers, asked my senator for help (thank you John Cornyn), wrote the president (bastard put me on a mailing list), and the only thing I get from the government is "dont call us, we will call you"

I hope my responses are not viewed as antagonistic, it is surely not my intention.

[jacksparrow]

texasjohn1965, since you took the time to examine my opinion, and you are asking for a few answers in return, as the polite person that I am (sometimes) I will respond to them. now please note, I am not trying to get into a debate. probably this will be my last post on this thread.

If we can get rid of the illegal/criminal types, would the perceived persecution ease up? probably Si, however, criminals are people who are a menace to society, just because we cross the border illegaly, does that makes us a menace to society? you did point, being illegal make us criminals

If you did not do the job, who would? Would all the companies just fold?
now this is a tricky one, nope companies probably would not fold, but have you notice or know, that in many cases the united states goverment has given us work visas, because there are some jobs americans are not willing or are not able to perform them.

I am a construction worker, and more than half of the workers on site are hispanic. Are they underpaid? probably not underpaid, but I am willing to bet they earn less than white folks working there.

now, I don't want you to try to understand, as you probably wouldn't.
my opinion was based on me being hispanic, and of how sad and hurt I am about my people being treated unfairly because of this law, just for coming from a third world country looking for a better opportunity/future on this great country of yours. believe it or not most of us work hard and as we receive great things from this country, we also give back in many ways, we do help keep this nation strong.

[Sensei]

Originally Posted by Sweet Heather

Sorry, but I disagree.

I think it's a good thing that desperate, poor people flood our country. We have all the resources in the world to help them-PLENTY of jobs for everyone. Car insurance? Poooh who needs it it's racist to expect them to have it. Can't afford housing because they work for slave wages and have 6 kids they can't feed? Just give 'em a house, we have plenty. Since both parents work and aren't around to supervise their 6 kids and they get in violent gangs? Pooh that's racist talk. I think we need to allow the entire worlds desperate, starving, uneducated people from all countrys to come here. We have plenty of housing, food, money for 'em all.

Hun, stick to what you know. First Hispanics have been here in the US before anyone decided to get off their ships (Vikings were probably first) and it wasn't until the US decided to expand that we were overrun. Now I for one know this was not all bad and have assimilated quite well thank you. But attitudes like this are what we need to combat, compare what positive things immigrants bring with the negative things and I believe you will see there is much to be desired there. Depending on what part of the US you are from you will see a portion of the population that fits the qualities you describe and they are not just Hispanics. So don't lay blame on an entire race just because of your personal life experiences. Every race has their issues and get seen in a bad light in some things, even in this hobby there is a segment of the population that is undesirable as clients for the actions of a few.

[carkido45]

Who are they going to get to cook there meals clean there houses take care of there kids cut there yards build there houses build there roads and other menial low paying jobs that good ole boys like TexasJohn and DTL are too old and lazy to do.
The funny thing I don't see hispanics on the corner begging for money.
They would rather earn it.

[Tony Montana]

Originally Posted by Sweet Heather

Sorry, but I disagree.

I think it's a good thing that desperate, poor people flood our country. We have all the resources in the world to help them-PLENTY of jobs for everyone. Car insurance? Poooh who needs it it's racist to expect them to have it. Can't afford housing because they work for slave wages and have 6 kids they can't feed? Just give 'em a house, we have plenty. Since both parents work and aren't around to supervise their 6 kids and they get in violent gangs? Pooh that's racist talk. I think we need to allow the entire worlds desperate, starving, uneducated people from all countrys to come here. We have plenty of housing, food, money for 'em all.

Why not? The ONLY reason this country even exists is we mass murdered millions of native americans and enslaved millions africans for hundreds of years.

What's wrong with sharing a little of the wealth we STOLE?

[gnadfly]

Car, I took your advise and put you on ignore. I think you owe a lot of people an apology for calling them a racist when in fact, you are the racist.

Let me let some people on a secret...before I start let me say that my business partner is Mexican American and my ex wife is Puerto Rican. I have a working knowledge of spanish and understand what is being said at the check out lines at Wal-mart.

The honest truth is that the legal Mexicans just don't want their illegal cousins to get caught. It has nothing to do with 'the man' falsely stopping 'brown people.' Many Mexicans are tight knit and just don't want the hassle of looking after their cousin's children, getting them back into the US or having to hassle with ICE/the police/their employers/the family/the schools and so on. They also don't want their cars and other property possibly confiscated or taxed.

Ever notice that no Mexican (maybe American) proposes a solution for the problem? Its simple - because they want a fairly open border. If an American proposes a solution they are shouted down as 'racist.' Did you know a very large portion of the law enforcement officials in AZ and TX are *gulp* Mexican American? Did you know there is a reconquista movement? Do you know what "La Raza" translates into? I've seen pamphlets published by Mexican states instructing Mexican Nationals what to do and say if they are confronted by a police officer and taken into custody.

There has been a lot a good work done here is the US by legal and illegal immigrants. However, at this time the US needs to take the strain off social services programs. Now, if you're willing to fight a war (on our side of course) we can put you on a fast path to citizenship.

[gnadfly]

Originally Posted by Tony Montana

Why not? The ONLY reason this country even exists is we mass murdered millions of native americans and enslaved millions africans for hundreds of years.

Cite?

[carkido45]

Originally Posted by Tony Montana

Why not? The ONLY reason this country even exists is we mass murdered millions of native americans and enslaved millions africans for hundreds of years.

What's wrong with sharing a little of the wealth we STOLE?

Trail of tears where many men, women, and children Native Americans were forced to march to march to there deaths.
In the late 1800's to early 1900's over 400 Mexican Nationals and Mexican -Americans were lynched mostly done by the Texas Rangers.
The slavery of millions of African Americans which also many were lynched.
To the imprisonment of millions of Japanese Americans during World War Two.
Yet during World War 2 and wars to come afterwards all these different groups defended a country they loved but didn't love them.
One of the most highly decorated Japanese American division to the Navajo radio operators to the African American Tuskegee Airmen the United States has been defended hwen will the Anglo American's such as TexasJohn and DTL recognize that the color of your skin shouldn't matter.
They won't because they are afraid and that's what drives racism along with ingnorance. Some of the history above you won't find in any history books why? Racism and by who?

[Sensei]

Originally Posted by gnadfly

Car, I took your advise and put you on ignore. I think you owe a lot of people an apology for calling them a racist when in fact, you are the racist.

Let me let some people on a secret...before I start let me say that my business partner is Mexican American and my ex wife is Puerto Rican. I have a working knowledge of spanish and understand what is being said at the check out lines at Wal-mart.

The honest truth is that the legal Mexicans just don't want their illegal cousins to get caught. It has nothing to do with 'the man' falsely stopping 'brown people.' Many Mexicans are tight knit and just don't want the hassle of looking after their cousin's children, getting them back into the US or having to hassle with ICE/the police/their employers/the family/the schools and so on. They also don't want their cars and other property possibly confiscated or taxed.

Ever notice that no Mexican (maybe American) proposes a solution for the problem? Its simple - because they want a fairly open border. If an American proposes a solution they are shouted down as 'racist.' Did you know a very large portion of the law enforcement officials in AZ and TX are *gulp* Mexican American? Did you know there is a reconquista movement? Do you know what "La Raza" translates into? I've seen pamphlets published by Mexican states instructing Mexican Nationals what to do and say if they are confronted by a police officer and taken into custody.

There has been a lot a good work done here is the US by legal and illegal immigrants. However, at this time the US needs to take the strain off social services programs. Now, if you're willing to fight a war (on our side of course) we can put you on a fast path to citizenship.

So you take one (or a few) conversations at a Walmart checkout and throw all of us under the bus? Really? The truth is that many of us Hispanic Americans want the Federal Government to do something about the problem. But unlike some here I know that the U.S.A NEEDS those workers and could not take the after affects that taking all those illegal workers out of the loop would cause. Texas has known this for many years, their own comptroller put this out in 06':

"The Comptroller’s office estimates the absence of the estimated 1.4 million undocumented immigrants in Texas in fiscal 2005 would have been a loss to our Gross State Product of $17.7 billion. Also, the Comptroller’s office estimates that state revenues collected from undocumented immigrants exceed what the state spent on services, with the difference being $424.7 million (Exhibit 18)."
Source: http://www.window.state.tx.us/specia...documented.pdf

I don't condone some of the proposed legislation that has been cited because of the discrimination aspect pure and simple. I would accept it better if everyone was affected, but that would also go against the things I spent 21 of my best years defending; The Constitution. That is why I feel that State/City Jailers should be the defending line when it comes to individuals and the Feds should handle the groups (workers and businesses).

Oh, and yes I know about La Raza and the Reconquista movement as well as all those other things you mention. But I also know about the Black Panthers, the KKK, the "Good Ole Boys" in the South and the websites that publish videos and pamphlets on what to do when stopped by police for solicitation/prostitution; What is your Point??

[LexusLover]

Originally Posted by Tony Montana

The ONLY reason this country even exists is we mass murdered millions of native americans and enslaved millions africans for hundreds of years.

What's wrong with sharing a little of the wealth we STOLE?

Speaking of "stolen wealth" .... the Spaniards did a pretty good job in "raping" the area of what is now known as Mexico of gold and silver, and my reading of the history of the Spanish rule of the area is that the native Indians were used for not only gathering the wealth, but satisfying the physical needs of the Spaniards who were separated from their wives while separating the "natives" of the area from their God-given wealth.

Folks who live in glass houses ..... etc.

Now, if a citizen of the Republic of Mexico, or one whose ancestors were citizens citizens of the Republic of Mexico TRULY believes in equality ...

then I propose FEDERAL legislation that says:

U.S. laws as they pretain to you will be consistent with the laws of the country from which you come.

We treat you here like you treat us there.

Example:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/may/03/mexicos-illegals-laws-tougher-than-arizonas/

“Mexico's illegals laws tougher than Arizona's”


By Jerry Seper - Associated Press
May 3, 2010

“Under the Mexican law, illegal immigration is a felony, punishable by up to two years in prison. Immigrants who are deported and attempt to re-enter can be imprisoned for 10 years. Visa violators can be sentenced to six-year terms. Mexicans who help illegal immigrants are considered criminals.

“The law also says Mexico can deport foreigners who are deemed detrimental to "economic or national interests," violate Mexican law, are not "physically or mentally healthy" or lack the "necessary funds for their sustenance" and for their dependents.”
______________________________ _________

IMO the only thing "racist" in this discussion is the effort by a member of a minority group to attempt to make a member of a majority group to retreat from the discussion by claiming that the member of the majority group is expressing an opinion about the topic based upon a biased attitude toward the minority group ... that uses "race" as a basis of an attempt to gain an advantage in the discussion.

Having spent the majority of my life in communities dominated by those of Hispanic ancestry I understand being dominated by the majority ... having spent a substantial amount of time living and traveling in countries South of the U.S. border, I understand the necessity of carrying identification to demonstrate my status and PRIVILEGE of being present in those places ... and further understand the importance of abiding by the existing laws of those places in order that my PRIVILEGE of being there will not be REVOKED and my ass get "kicked" by the local "gestapo" who has been itching to get him a "piece" of GRINGO.... before he tosses me into a stinking cell with a bunch of other folks who hate "bolios."

[Toreador_one]

Originally Posted by LexusLover

“Mexico's illegals laws tougher than Arizona's”


By Jerry Seper - Associated Press
May 3, 2010

“Under the Mexican law, illegal immigration is a felony, punishable by up to two years in prison. Immigrants who are deported and attempt to re-enter can be imprisoned for 10 years...."

The above is inaccurate, the Mexican immigration law was reformed in 2008 (yes the information above is the way it used to be), illegal immigration in Mexico is no longer a crime but a civil violation just like it is in the U.S.