An Attempt at a CIVIL Health Care Discussion

[lacrew_2000]

Companies are already reporting implications of healthcare to the SEC:

AT&T has filed that it will cost $1 Billion for the Quarter!

John Deere filed a $150 million cost

Caterpillar filed $100 million

3M filed a $85 million cost

...tip of the iceberg

[Kshunter]

Originally Posted by lacrew_2000

Companies are already reporting implications of healthcare to the SEC:

AT&T has filed that it will cost $1 Billion for the Quarter!

John Deere filed a $150 million cost

Caterpillar filed $100 million

3M filed a $85 million cost

...tip of the iceberg

Oh, LA, you know those are just evil private companies that still want to make a profit...

[dirty dog]

Originally Posted by Kshunter

Oh, LA, you know those are just evil private companies that still want to make a profit...

Damn them, damn them to hell, they must be stopped, they must be foiled in their terrible plot to promote a capitalist agenda.

[Gryphon]

Originally Posted by Racerunner

Malpractice settlements and verdicts tract exactly with the cost of health care. All the actuarial studies confirm this. Malpractice reform is red meat for part of a political base, but it has very little to no impact on costs.

As I mentioned in my original post, the practice of defensive medicine is so widespread that it has become the standard of care in many respects. For example, very few people who go to an emergency room with a blow to the head have bleeding into the brain and most of those who do can be identified by physical exam findings. But everyone who goes to the ER with a blow to the head gets a CT scan. Why? Because the one person in 1,000 who does have bleeding into the brain will sue the ER physician. And that suit would be successful today because the practice of getting routine head CT's is so widespread as to be the standard of care.

The studies looking at effects of tort reform are looking at the wrong end of the elephant. What matters to doctors is not the amount of damages awarded; as has been pointed out, that's what malpractice insurance is for. The problem is that even a suit that is thrown out takes an inordinate amount of time, effort, and lost sleep. I know of one malpractice suit that was dismissed seven times and refiled seven times before finally being dismissed with prejudice (meaning it could not be refiled in any court). That process took eight years to play out. Meaningful tort reform would have to involve measures to prevent suits that are going to be thrown out (which is the majority) from being filed in the first place. To my knowledge, such an attempt has never been made.

The rest of the world has no such tradition of litigation. A British physician of my acquaintance told me she was advised by the National Health Service not to let anyone know she was a doctor in the event of a medical emergency on her flight to the U.S. because the person having the problem might be an American who would sue her if anything went wrong.

[kcbigpapa]

Originally Posted by Gryphon

The rest of the world has no such tradition of litigation.

Why do you suppose that is?

[Bartman1963]

Dirty, thanks for the response. And if I start quoting specific figures, please do your best to kick them around. I will answer any specific question you have regarding information I use or quote. As of this time and this thread, I haven't quoted any exact figures other than to say that "our wages" have remained mostly stagnant for the last 40 years. That information is available in many places, Google for one.

I know about hearing aids not being currently covered by Medicare... In my scenario hearing aids would be a covered expense, because I think we should modify existing Medicare so that all reasonable treatments and costs would be covered including prosthetics such has hearing aids. By the way my insurance doesn't cover the cost of hearing aids either, and I pay plenty through my employer. It's from one of the insurance companies I mentioned in my first post.

As far as the VA being representative of Gov't run healthcare you are correct. But that isn't what I want. I want the government as a payor for healthcare. The difference could be seen as the difference between running the insurance company, or running the hospital and the insurance company. I want the Gov't in the insurance companies role. Not the VA's role as hospital owner and insurer. In my idea, Medicare would take the premiums, then make payments on the claims. That's it. That would save hundreds of millions of dollars in insurance executive salaries alone. There would be no hospitals having to negotiate reimbursement rates increases, then if they don't get what needing to raise the cost of non covered services. No Rx companies charging the United States' consumer billions of dollars then letting Canada have it easy with cheaper prices.

As far as KS response, I am still looking forward to an answer regarding a legitimate and important question. If you state I am "wildly misinformed" and quote percentages to back that up, its only fair for me to ask as to how your percentages break down. I don't mistrust the figure you quoted. I want to know how they break down as to billing error vs non coverage.

My questions are fair ones, and the responses so far have not been answers.

[Longermonger]

Originally Posted by lacrew_2000

Companies are already reporting implications of healthcare to the SEC:

AT&T has filed that it will cost $1 Billion for the Quarter!

John Deere filed a $150 million cost

Caterpillar filed $100 million

3M filed a $85 million cost

...tip of the iceberg

Gee...I wonder how many of those four companies are on the Top 200 Corporate Republican Donors List? FOUR! And I wonder how many CEOs of those companies are some of the biggest donors in Republican history? LOL

C'mon, didn't you even notice that John Deere and Caterpillar are a little bit odd to be on your list of four? Did you not check the stock prices for these companies? Conglomerate 3M's stock is fine...they predict a one-time cost of ~$90 million. No iceberg there. John Deere's stock price is fine, too. Caterpillar's stock went UP!!! I think they've got some contract negotiations going on right now, so they need to sound like they're broke so they can get more part-time workers and fewer full-time workers. AT&T's stock is also UP!!! They sky has not fallen.

P.S. You left out AK Steel.

[Longermonger]

Originally Posted by kcbigpapa

Why do you suppose that is?

Does it have anything to do with not being able to sue the government?

Maybe that's why conservatives don't want a big U.S. Hospital. They want to be able to continue to file frivolous lawsuits against doctors! HA HA HA!

[Guest052813-01]

Originally Posted by Longermonger

Gee...I wonder how many of those four companies are on the Top 200 Corporate Republican Donors List? FOUR! And I wonder how many CEOs of those companies are some of the biggest donors in Republican history? LOL

C'mon, didn't you even notice that John Deere and Caterpillar are a little bit odd to be on your list of four? Did you not check the stock prices for these companies? Conglomerate 3M's stock is fine...they predict a one-time cost of ~$90 million. No iceberg there. John Deere's stock price is fine, too. Caterpillar's stock went UP!!! I think they've got some contract negotiations going on right now, so they need to sound like they're broke so they can get more part-time workers and fewer full-time workers. AT&T's stock is also UP!!! They sky has not fallen.

P.S. You left out AK Steel.

And yet, when the Bamster used Caterpillar as an example of a company that would benefit from his stimulus package by restoring jobs the company lost in Ohio, in actuality, Caterpillar lost even more jobs because of the negative affects of the stimulus.

[Cheaper2buyit]

at&t just fuck their employees took them from 20 co pay to 300 to 800 deductable and they just closed their kc center

[Gryphon]

Maybe we should move away from employer-based health insurance altogether. People change jobs so many times now that it no longer makes sense, and it makes getting laid off an even bigger disaster than it normally would be.

So how about making the total population of each state a risk pool. Each year the actuarial risk is determined by the state insurance board and the maximum allowable premium is set. Individuals and families can then buy any policy available at that rate. All health insurance premiums become tax deductible. Insurance companies compete based on benefit packages, individuals have more choice, the federal government isn't running anything, variations in demographics across the country are accounted for, and health insurance as a nontaxable benefit is preserved. The only downside is that it might have to be mandatory to have insurance in order to make it economically feasible.

[Cheaper2buyit]

everybody talks about us spending money on us how we talk about spending money on other countrys. Fine give them tort reform. but what about us. people talk about the poor but if everyone got a high paying job then who would sell your woman her shoes or who work at the food store or at wendys who washes your car who watches your kids who works all these low pay jobs that you have to have but you don't respect them. some dumb ass is a Ceo makes mills works 3 or 5 days the person on the ground who makes maybe 30k or less at 7.50 a hour & you cry cause at least they get heath care. I say ever person who makes less then 10 dollars strike intill they get heath care. how about that. Why don't you make school cheaper for med students that will drive down heath care. The rich get richer the middle class just sounds good and the poor dose all the shit you need but with no respect.

[Cheaper2buyit]

I am very happy that everybody is playing nice in the sandbox

[lacrew_2000]

"Gee...I wonder how many of those four companies are on the Top 200 Corporate Republican Donors List? FOUR! And I wonder how many CEOs of those companies are some of the biggest donors in Republican history? LOL"

I have no idea...doesn't matter. these companies are not making political statements. They are disclosing information to the SEC, as soon as their accountants figure it out, so as not to be in violation of insider trading tactics. They didn't come up with these numbers out of thin air...they are no shit, this is what we have to write down numbers.

"3M's stock is fine...they predict a one-time cost of ~$90 million. No iceberg there"...Trust me, the top brass at 3M will not absorb this cost. The shareholders (read lots of retired people) and employees will bear this cost. There is a saying that I think is appropriate: Swing at the rich, and you hit the middle class, every single time".

"Caterpillar's stock went UP!!!"...probably people speculating that this will push them over the edge and move all of their operations to the far east...I've seen this happen before with a local company.

[KCJoe]

I read the article about why they are recording the hit. Seems that they were getting a 28% subsidy from Medicare for eligible costs but were able to deduct 100% of the costs. The new bill only allows them to deduct their actual out-of-pocket costs. don't know why it was this way in the first place. must have had a good lobbiest