Bye Bye America !

[loneshark]

Originally Posted by bkfantasy

You make some great points, but this is where the overall argument falls down because you ignore the reasons why costs have climbed. Why did they have to raise rates? They had to raise rates because the cost of health care was sky-rocketing. Ok, but why was it sky-rocketing? 3 major reasons...

1. Technology is expensive. Better and newer therapies cost more money than old therapies. For this reason, it is very difficult to keep health care inflation below the broader market inflation. The only way to do so is to stick to old tried and true therapies. But does anybody going in for a hip replacement want a 1995 version of the procedure or a 2017 version?

2. The archaic patent system in this country allows companies to create mini-monopolies on drugs and therapies. If there are artificial barriers to competition, then you can guarantee that prices will be too high.

3. Too many people were receiving health care and never paying. This means that everyone who does pay (either through insurance or out of pocket) is subsidizing those freeloaders. Have you ever been to an emergency room? Take a look around and try to guess how many of them are actually going to pay for the services they are about to receive. You might be shocked. Folks who dislike socialized medicine don't realize we've already had it for years.

Some folks would argue that regulation and malpractice lawsuits were driving the costs. But those were very, very small market influences.

Don't be so quick to claim Obamacare is a failure. It's not a failure to the millions of folks with pre-existing conditions who were unable to obtain insurance at any price in the past. It's not a failure to the millions of folks under 26 who are unable to obtain employer based coverage and can remain under their parents' plan (though the obvious solution here is to drive job growth and get these folks employed). It's not a failure to the self-employed who can now buy insurance on the exchanges rather than being stuck with whatever plan is available in their location.

Where Obamacare has 'failed' is because it does nothing to address items #1 and #2 above. I haven't seen a plan that does. Most folks who complain about Obamacare want to go back to a free market system and allow capitalism to work it's magic. But the previous system was anything but 'free market'.

I think if you know anything about health care . I was talking about cost of Employer based insurance being very good but we all know the cost of good care goes up . I think its obvious to the most casual observer the cost of care goes up all the time. Its a fact I assumed most would know.

People who wanted health care without an employer could get it and preexisting conditions went away after you had the plan for one year. They had chip plans and others.

I agree we take care of the ones who don't pay.
I do understand were you're coming from but the numbers don't add up

I guarantee you the ones who don't have insurance do fine. I don't mind paying a little more for my insurance because someone needs a free ride.

I think the people who want insurance get a job with insurance coverage

The problem is you can't subsidize it. 2 trillion for 9 million people is crazy.

Look its a fact the health care system is messed up and I not talking about Obama care just the whole setup but you can't change that and even the Democrats know Obama care is going to implode so while you have a few good points it does not matter its done.

[yinz2016]

Originally Posted by loneshark

I go into walmart and see people using welfare cards with Iphones in hand and a whole lot more.

So poor people are only allowed to have fucked up shit? If they get a present from their family and its not ghetto enough, they should give it back, sell it or trade down until its ghetto enough to meet your standards? Or because they receive food stamps, they have to get some shitty obsolete flip phone or something? Gimme a break.

I'm not a big fan of welfare, personally. Way too many people on welfare. And lets be honest here, welfare includes:

Medicare/Medicaid
Food Stamps (SNAP)
Cash Assistance (TANF)
Social Security
WIC
CHIP
Military Pensions / VA Health Benefits
Government Pensions
Farm Subsidies
Earned Income Tax Credit

This is all free money from the government. Some of receive some of it. Some of us directly pay for some of it but at the end of the day, its somebody else's money. I don't see us stopping the gravy train any time soon. Its likely just going to get worse. But this notion that people need to live shitty in order to receive benefits is silly.

[sexymaid_69]

Whoa whoa there fella's

Welfare does NOT include

Social Security or SSI
I assume you mean SSI because SSD is reserved for folks who have worked all their lives and paid into the system.
SSI is the screwed up system that allows folks who never worked to be paid more because of their disability.
It's NOT welfare and is reviewed every three years to see if it should continue.

Veterans benefits of ANY kind
Our veterans earned those benefits by serving, period.
We owe those benefits to anyone willing to lay down their life for our country.

And.
The earned income tax credit is getting a major overhaul this year. My tax preparer says it's going to be more of a hassle than it will soon be worth as far as a deduction.

[jimmys35_2]

Originally Posted by sexymaid_69

Whoa whoa there fella's

Welfare does NOT include

Social Security or SSI
I assume you mean SSI because SSD is reserved for folks who have worked all their lives and paid into the system.
SSI is the screwed up system that allows folks who never worked to be paid more because of their disability.
It's NOT welfare and is reviewed every three years to see if it should continue.

Veterans benefits of ANY kind
Our veterans earned those benefits by serving, period.
We owe those benefits to anyone willing to lay down their life for our country.

And.
The earned income tax credit is getting a major overhaul this year. My tax preparer says it's going to be more of a hassle than it will soon be worth as far as a deduction.

I wanted to thank you for this great post. It is obvious that yinz has never served a day in the military. Never left a 6 week old daughter on a moments notice (Jan 1991) or spent 26 years just to ensure some idiots can post stupid sh*t like that post.

And since you don't give senior discounts, do you give military? LMAO

[sexymaid_69]

Originally Posted by jimmys35_2

I wanted to thank you for this great post. It is obvious that yinz has never served a day in the military. Never left a 6 week old daughter on a moments notice (Jan 1991) or spent 26 years just to ensure some idiots can post stupid sh*t like that post.

And since you don't give senior discounts, do you give military? LMAO

What is with you guys and these discounts you speak of?
I don't know the meaning of that perticular word...

[StandinStraight]

Healthcare costs has been out of control for decades, Obamacare helped but more regulations are needed. The reason for the skyrocketing costs is the greed of the insurance companies, pharmaceutical companies and hospitals. They charge what they can get away with to maximize profits. In most industries that would be fine but healthcare is different in that it is not a option in that it is s necessity when sick. If you give the control back to those looking to maximize profit we are screwed. Healthcare needs to be run like Medicare with cost controls and availability for all, that is the only solution that will ever solve the problem. Unfortunately republicans want to give control back to insurance companies and big pharmaceutical companies and hospitals so things will get worse.

[bambino]

Originally Posted by sexymaid_69

What is with you guys and these discounts you speak of?
I don't know the meaning of that perticular word...

We just thinks it a good idea, just like you thought the ACA was a good idea.

[bigguyt]

Originally Posted by sexymaid_69

What is with you guys and these discounts you speak of?
I don't know the meaning of that perticular word...

Years ago i went to see a provider in a high rise apartment building. Inside the elevator was the providers business card stuck on the wall. It had a coupon for 25% off the next session. I guess the previous customer has as bad of a time as me.

[shambala]

Originally Posted by loneshark

I go into walmart and see people using welfare cards with Iphones in hand and a whole lot more.

Originally Posted by yinz2016

So poor people are only allowed to have fucked up shit? If they get a present from their family and its not ghetto enough, they should give it back, sell it or trade down until its ghetto enough to meet your standards? Or because they receive food stamps, they have to get some shitty obsolete flip phone or something? Gimme a break...
But this notion that people need to live shitty in order to receive benefits is silly.

LOL, give me a break. Seems like you have a logical fallacy here... assume something that's not said then attack that position. I don't see loneshark suggesting that anyone should live shitty or have shitty phones. And not having an iPhone doesn't mean having to have a shitty or obsolete phone. There are plenty of good brand new phones that are a lot cheaper that can be bought.

He may be questioning their choices where they have enough money to buy the expensive things they want, but then need help to pay for other things. Or he may be questioning a system where these inconsistencies exist, but nowhere does he suggest they should live shitty. It's called living within your means.

[Big Stig]

What? The free Obama phone that the working taxpayers pay for isn't good enough? Too shitty?

[loneshark]

Originally Posted by StandinStraight

Healthcare costs has been out of control for decades, Obamacare helped but more regulations are needed. The reason for the skyrocketing costs is the greed of the insurance companies, pharmaceutical companies and hospitals. They charge what they can get away with to maximize profits. In most industries that would be fine but healthcare is different in that it is not a option in that it is s necessity when sick. If you give the control back to those looking to maximize profit we are screwed. Healthcare needs to be run like Medicare with cost controls and availability for all, that is the only solution that will ever solve the problem. Unfortunately republicans want to give control back to insurance companies and big pharmaceutical companies and hospitals so things will get worse.

The last part of your statement is right to an extent but its not just Republican its the Democrat's also you see politicians are all the same they are bought and paid for by big money and lobbyists.

I agree part of the reason for the skyrocketing costs is the greed of the insurance companies, pharmaceutical companies and hospitals. This is why you can't change it. Most Americans get health insurance through work in fact 175 million so the companys have had there way over the years and employer health insurance is stable.

I know if you ever look at bills for heath care the hospital charges are crazy and what your insurance company pays is not the stated bill you know that its a crazy system . Two people could get the same care and have different insurance companys and one could end up paying more. Plus you have no idea what anything costs before hand


Its like going to the store and picking things off the shelf and having no idea what they cost and getting charged some crazy price. The system sucks.

It was stated when Obama care was passed the insurance companys signed off on it knowing it was going to fail.

[shambala]

Originally Posted by Big Stig

What? The free Obama phone that the working taxpayers pay for isn't good enough? Too shitty?

Leave it to Obama to screw over the poor folks by givin' em shitty phones. lol

[Big Stig]

Originally Posted by loneshark

Its like going to the store and picking things off the shelf and having no idea what they cost and getting charged some crazy price. The system sucks.

No, its not like that at all. For it to be like that, you, as the payer for stuff bought at a store, would have negotiated the price you pay for every item in the store with the store owner in advance. Its a mindlessly simplistic comparison that is misleading.

[StandinStraight]

The democrats do not want to give control back to the insurance companies the republicans do. Obamacare was designed to control the costs by putting restraints on the insurance companies, for instance for every dollar of premium they collect a fixed percentage must go back to actual insurance costs not profit. However the insurance companies did not want OBamacare to succeed, they sabatoged it in any way they could. If it is taken away people are in for a shock and will be wishing they had it back!

[Big Stig]

Maybe if the government actually paid the subsidies to the insurance companies like the law mandated, the insurance companies wouldn't be running away from ACA. Insurance companies have collectively lost almost $10 billion on ACA over the last 2 years. How are they supposed to survive that? Well, they were not supposed to survive, thats the dirty little plan. Drive the health insurance companies out of business and the federal government swoops in to save the day with the single payer system they wanted all along. The influence and power the Democrats would glean from single payer is enormous. Unfortunately for them, the plan went off the rails when they pissed away the election. Oh well, too bad.