What to do?

[enderwiggin]

Originally Posted by LexusLover

The season just started this month.

True, alot of fishermen are back on the water already.

[simpleton]

I say do it. Who cares if the bk court makes you pay it back.





just do it

[lisa.lisa0302]

You want to spend your money on cyber whores instead of stocking up for hard times...oh

[lizardking]

Originally Posted by enderwiggin

Not to state the obvious, but if you tell the court that you spent thousands of dollars on prostitution, something tells me they'll figure out something to do with/to you.

Highly unlikely. However, payments made by a debtor within a certain period prior to filing bankruptcy may be set aside as preferences.

Originally Posted by enderwiggin

Its kind of funny that your argument for blowing the cash on the ladies is to avoid committing bankruptcy fraud...I hate to say it, cap'n, but you already are committing fraud.

Actually, what he describes is not really "bankruptcy fraud", but it could be fraud as to the credit card issuer. If it could ever be proven that he "borrowed" the money with the intent not to repay it, the credit card issuer could challenge the dischargeability of the debt. Again, highly unlikely, especially for only $50K. This analysis obtains in any bankruptcy (i.e., when did the debtor formulate the intent to file and what did he do after he formed that intent? How you spend the money is almost completely immaterial.) Of course, secreting the money away would be bankruptcy fraud and would effectively be fucking all of his creditors, not just the credit card issuer. Strange that that seems to be the consensus opinion as to what course of action he should follow. How "moral" we are!

Originally Posted by enderwiggin

The trick now is not getting caught. If I were planning on stealing from my creditors, I'd do it for a good reason. Taking care of myself and my family is a better one than blowing it on whiskey and women.

Now that's just crazy talk! Remember, if you're married and you're spending any of your income - which is community property - on hobbying, you're arguably committing fraud on the community. I'm amazed that folks would overlook that little fact while rushing to the (at least philosophical) aid of a FUCKING CREDIT CARD COMPANY . . . the nastiest and most predatory of all legal (and most illegal) enterprises!

Originally Posted by enderwiggin

I can think of dozens of ways to avoid having to report it to the court, but I'm not about to give you advice on this. You'll have to figure out how to blow a hole in the bottom of your boat all on your own.

Really? C'mon, help a brother out! The best way to not report it is to not report it.

[DEAR_JOHN]

There is a lot I could say about bankruptcy, but I won't do it in this thread.

[LexusLover]

Originally Posted by lizardking

Remember, if you're married and you're spending any of your income - which is community property - on hobbying, you're arguably committing fraud on the community. I'm amazed that folks would overlook that little fact .....

... hate to take issue on a matter that is admittedly "little" ... but

since both persons in the marriage have a legal right to the WHOLE of the community property during the marriage, either one can spend any part or all of the community cash on ... hobbying, junkets to Las Vegas, shoe sales, cigars and blue dresses, etc., etc... or whatever.

[Hot to Trot Daphne]

just make sure whatever cyber wHorE you get doesn't have any 'extra' attachments

[enderwiggin]

Originally Posted by lizardking

Of course, secreting the money away would be bankruptcy fraud and would effectively be fucking all of his creditors, not just the credit card issuer. Strange that that seems to be the consensus opinion as to what course of action he should follow. How "moral" we are!

Perhaps I did say it would be better to save the money for a rainy day, but that's only as compared to stealing the money for the express purpose of getting your rocks off. My overall sentiment is that theft is theft. Nevermind the legal loopholes and Robin-Hood-entitlement jargon that might get you off of criminal charges. If I'm going to steal, its going to be for a good reason. For this guy, evidently wanting his prick sucked is a good enough reason to steal. (Nevermind what $50K could do for his business. Are we seriously supposed to believe that he could pull that kind of cash off of his credit lines while on the verge of bankruptcy? Sure... )

Originally Posted by lizardking

Now that's just crazy talk! Remember, if you're married and you're spending any of your income - which is community property - on hobbying, you're arguably committing fraud on the community. I'm amazed that folks would overlook that little fact while rushing to the (at least philosophical) aid of a FUCKING CREDIT CARD COMPANY . . . the nastiest and most predatory of all legal (and most illegal) enterprises!

Well I'm not married, so I'm not defrauding anyone. I'm not defending the credit card company either. I'm just not going to defend or advise the guy who's knowingly stealing. One way or another, those of us who work for a living and try to be honest in our business dealing are going to end up paying for his "weekend with the cyber-hookers". Either by having our own interest rates jacked when his failed business venture gets aligned with all the other failed business ventures in this shitty economy. Or by paying his welfare checks out of our taxes since he's not working now and we're all supposed to support him. Or by subsidizing the credit relief or stimulus plan that bails him out of his "troubles" with our increased tax burden. Or by paying a higher price at the pump when BP jacks the price of gas to cover the settlement they give him because he "just couldn't make it"... Take your pick, but nothing is free.

[Don T. Lukbak]

What would Bubba Blue (aka, Bubba Gump) think? Shrimp Boat Captain, my hind foot. Like the hand-to-hand dude on the corner is an "entrepeneur".

Ender, it pains me to observe that the concept of "social justice" is a pretext for theft. Not only is theft justified by the quest for "social justice", it is elevated to a sacrament by the oikophobes. They pretend to be looking for equality when what they really seek is an edge.

[lizardking]

Originally Posted by LexusLover

... hate to take issue on a matter that is admittedly "little" ... but

since both persons in the marriage have a legal right to the WHOLE of the community property during the marriage, either one can spend any part or all of the community cash on ... hobbying, junkets to Las Vegas, shoe sales, cigars and blue dresses, etc., etc... or whatever.

I'm not a family law authority, but I have seen it successfully argued that "regular" or "excessive" patronage of a prostitute is tantamount to diverting community assets to a mistress, which is often found to constitute fraud on the community and can support an "adjustment" in the division of community assets.

[Don T. Lukbak]

Originally Posted by lizardking

I'm not a family law authority, but I have seen it successfully argued that "regular" or "excessive" patronage of a prostitute is tantamount to diverting community assets to a mistress, which is often found to constitute fraud on the community and can support an "adjustment" in the division of community assets.

Makes sense to me; it's just theft from a partnership ... which does not mean the law views it the same way. I'm encouraged to learn the argument was successful.

[LexusLover]

Originally Posted by lizardking

I'm not a family law authority, but I have seen it successfully argued .....

... and you saw "it successfully argued".....

With all due respect .... paying for the time of various ladies ... is ...

not the same as maintaining a "mistress" ...........

... and there is no doubt an "equitable" argument that squandering funds, irrespective of the recipient, that belong to the community estate may "arguably" justify a disportionate disposition of the existing community assets at the time of a divorce proceeding, .... but there cannot be conceptually a "fraud" as a consequence of taking one's own property.... any more than one can steal from oneself.

"...which is often found to constitute fraud on the community."

Also, with all due respect I directly challenge this statement.

How many times, in what courts, and when?

[lizardking]

As I understand it, if one spouse pays community funds to or for the benefit of another individual with whom he/she is in a "dating relationship", this may constitute fraud on the community and is one of the very few situations where Texas courts are still inclined to balance the situation through an unequal division of community assets. I am aware of a case in Harris Co. about six years ago where the wife argued that her soon-to-be ex-husband had for a number of years been spending about $1500 per week on a couple of different providers (traveling with them, etc.). She argued that these were "dating relationships", that the payments were a "fraud on the community", and that the payments should all be credited back to the community estate. The case was settled (in a manner that leads me to conclude that the wife's arguments were "successful"), so the court did not actually rule. I do, however, recall seeing a motion or brief where authority was cited for these arguments.

Certainly, if one hides community assets with the intent of shielding them from a property division, this is conduct that is arguably "fraudulent" and can be addressed by a court. Consequently, I believe the statement that " there cannot be conceptually a 'fraud' as a consequence of taking one's own property" is, perhaps, overbroad.

Surely we can agree that the discovery in a divorce proceeding that a guy is spending loads of cash on hookers will not typically induce a court to cut him any slack or tilt the equities in his favor, right?

[Jaleh]

Is this real?

[GrandPoobah]

I'm not gay, but you could bang the Poobah for 50 grand.