Occupy what?

[DTorrchia]

Originally Posted by theaustinescorts

Your mantra is that "Hitler needed to be stopped."

This was the crap spewed out by the Brits and American Left, but it's total propaganda.

Stopped from doing what? Attacking Poland?

Didn't the USSR also attack Poland?

Are you going to say that Russia therefore "needed to be stopped?"

Maybe it's because Hitler invaded France?

Yeah but he only did so after France declared war on Germany after Poland, and then for months refused all of Germany's offers to end the war.

The facts are that Germany didn't need to stopped from anything. The war in the west was entirely the doing of the Brits and France. The French and Brits wanted a new war with Germany so they could finish what they couldn't in the Great War, and that's why they used the Polish invasion as a PRETEXT to declare war on Germany. They were in the process of mobilization when the Germans rightly attacked France in May 1940 to pre-empt an attack on themselves by France and England when their preparations were complete.

You can't understand the motives of the actors in 1939 without understanding what happened before in the Great War and in Paris 1919......it was just a continuation of the same issues with different pretexts.

For the record, though the harsh penalties and conditions placed on Germany during 1919 had an effect on both Hitler and the German people's psyche, it was Hitler who provided the "pre-texts" to the British and French. As I've told you many times, Hitler invading Poland was NOT the beginning of his desire for conquest.

So once again, in an effort to counter your revisionist history rants, let's put the truth out there:

"In the mid and late 1930s, France and especially Britain followed a foreign policy of appeasement. The objective of this policy was to maintain peace in Europe by making limited concessions to German demands. In Britain, public opinion tended to favor some revision of the territorial and military provision of the Versailles treaty. Moreover, neither Britain nor France in 1938 was militarily prepared to fight a war against Nazi Germany.
Britain and France essentially acquiesced to Germany's rearmament (1935-1937), re-militarization of the Rhineland (1936), and annexation of Austria (March 1938). In September 1938, after signing away the Czech border regions, known as the Sudetenland, to Germany at the Munich conference, British and French leaders pressured France's ally, Czechoslovakia, to yield to Germany's demand for the incorporation of those regions. Despite Anglo-French guarantees of the integrity of rump Czechoslovakia, the Germans dismembered the Czechoslovak state in March 1939 in violation of the Munich agreement. Britain and France responded by guaranteeing the integrity of the Polish state"

The above is a much more accurate portrayal of the true historical facts in regards to Hitler and Europe during the 1930's. THIS is why people felt Hitler needed to be stopped. Hitler would NOT have stopped and he WOULD have taken on Russia (which he did) and succeeded had we not intervened. Of course, according to YOU, that would have been a good thing but YOU are one of the ONLY posters on this site that feels that a Europe completely and exclusively ruled by Hitler would have been a good thing.
Six million Jews, millions of Russians and other ethnic groups in Europe would disagree with you, as would I. The world would NOT have been better off with a Europe completely ruled by Hitler and his Nazi party. Not a single person here would disagree with that except you which should tell you just how far out in fantasy land you are on this one.

btw...

When the Germans invaded Poland 75,000 Poles were killed.

Ok, once again it's time to keep you honest. How many of those Poles were killed by the Germans? 90%+

When the US invaded Iraq 75,000 Iraqis were killed.

How many of the Iraqi's were killed by American forces rather than by other Iraqi's in sectarian violence? There are no steadfast numbers....
not in the Wikileaks documents or on the IBC (Iraqi Body Count) site
but most serious people estimate that maybe around 15-20% of those 75,000 killed are attributable to U.S./Coalition forces.
So you're comparing apples to oranges in an effort to dramatize.

Secondly, how many Iraqi's were rounded up and shipped off to Concentration camps by U.S forces in Iraq based on their religious faith? How many were systematically gassed? How many Iraqi homes were looted by U.S. forces after the Iraqi's were sent off to the Concentration camps?
And if you utter the words Abu Ghraib in an effort to compare that to the systematic deportation and extermination of millions of people then don't be surprised if people think you a fool.

Do you REALLY want to go on comparing the German invasion of Poland to the Iraqi war??!!!!

When Germany invaded Poland the Germans made up a series of false pretexts to justify their action.

When the US invaded Iraq the US made up a series of false pretexts to justify their actions.

See what I'm getting at?

No, I don't. Why don't you read my response above as to why your comparison is complete and utter nonsense.

War is a game. But if you wanna argue morality I think George Bush and Hitler are pretty much the same, but that's only my opinion.

Lunch break's over, time to get back to work. Sorry, just couldn't help but put some of your fantasies back in perspective.

[Booth]

Congratulations - you've all successfully occupied the sandbox.

[WyldemanATX]

Originally Posted by Booth

Congratulations - you've all successfully occupied the sandbox.

+1

[theaustinescorts]

Originally Posted by DTorrchia

While I generally don't mind pointing out where you continue to make factual mistakes in regards to WWII, when you reach the stage of..."George Bush and Hitler are pretty much the same, but that's only my opinion".....I have to excuse myself from the debate. Not because I have some undying love for George Bush but because almost all of your arguments above are so far off base that it would take more time and energy than I am willing to put in, to point out just how out of touch you are with the facts.
That and the fact it's almost 11pm by me and I have a long day ahead tomorrow. Feel free in my absence to carry on with your "Hitler wasn't really all that bad" platform.
Good night.

If you're going to debate with me you have to:

1.Accept what I'm saying rather than what you wish I had said, and,
2.At least try to rebut my specific points, to wit......

First, I never said that "Hitler was not all that bad."*

What I've said is that when it comes to morality [which is only my opinion] that Hitler, Bush, Churchill, Stalin, Hirohito, FDR, etc. all lie in the same dismal moral camp.
All of them don't give a shit about individual human life, and are more than willing to unleash all the horrors of war---including rape, burning people alive, snuffing out the lives of patriots defending their homelands, etc. for what they regard as "a greater good." More specifically regarding the US invasion of Iraq in 2003 it was conducted in exactly the same manner, for similar reasons, and with the same level of civilian casualties, as the German invasion of Poland.

If you want to claim that the US invasion of Iraq, slaughter of its civilians, destruction of it's infrastructure, killing of its soldiers defending their homeland, was FUNDAMENTALLY different from the German invasion of Poland then let's hear the reasons. You will have to first start by arguing tht Saddam Hussein [the US hero in the Iran-Iraq war] had weapons of mass destruction and was preparing to give them to terrorist groups to use in the US...including atomic bombs. Is that what you're arguing?

Secondly,

You still haven't anwsered the central question I posed to you about why Fance and England declared war on Germany in September 1939....

You CLAIM it was because Germany invaded Poland. That's what they said at the time, but the facts show otherwise.

Principally, how is it that when Russia also invaded Poland as Germany's ally that France and Britain FAILED TO DECLARE WAR ON RUSSIA?


You have also failed to answer why France and England rebuffed every German proposal to end the war before May 1940....

Why did the English and French fail to end the state of war when it was offered?

If you're going to claim to understand history you must first come to grips with the fact that what statesmen SAY is their motive is often different from what their actual motive is.

* Hitler was terrible in my opinon, but my opinon wasn't shared by much of the world's elites. Forget about Hitler PERSONALLY. What the elites thought had more to do with WHAT THE GERMAN PEOPLE ACCOMPLISHED UNDER THE NAZIS WHICH WOULD OTHERWISE HAVE NOT HAPPENED.
Germany's economic, scientific, and other accomplishments under the Nazis were so admired that half of the elites in THIS COUNTRY, as well as in England, France, Italy, most of Latin America, most of the middle east, etc.... as well as the LEADERSHIP OF THE US SPACE PROGRAM.......AS WELL AS 99% OF THE Central Intelligence Agency....on and on and on....thought the Germans under Hitler were admirable.

And you have to remember that in THIS COUNTRY as well as all the world that HITLER WAS REGARDED AS THE WORLD'S NECESSARY BULWARK AGAINST COMMUNISM, which most elites regarded as the greater if not only true evil.....

The fact that you fail to understand that Hitler was admired by much of the world's elites, and the reasons for it, indicates that you are not prepared to accept the realities of the last century.

At most your opinons are based on reading popular, non-scholarly books and magazines....nothing subject to peer review.

I admonish you to do what I did at a critical point in my life when I wanted to understand these issues.

You can start by enrolling in a graduate program in Strategic Studies at a major university where these matters are treated honestly, and then interacting with the kinds of people who matter....policy makers instead of order-takers.

From what you're saying it's obvious you are a simple soldier [like my own family members were], and are contemptuous of anyone who expresses a more knowledgable viewpoint than that which supports your boyish/adventure-filled warrior fantasies of RIGHT VS. WRONG, and GOOD VS. EVIL.

Life is real. Handle the truth about it.

It is not a comic book, or CNN, or Fox New, or the New York Times, or Life Magazine.

ps....

If your image of Hitler is based on his social views, remember that [except for a willingness to exterminate groups he thought were inferior] 95% of opinion at that time shared his views....even here.

It's only in the last few decades that those terrible views have been discarded by the majority in many places.

[DTorrchia]

Originally Posted by theaustinescorts

If you're going to debate with me you have to:

1.Accept what I'm saying rather than what you wish I had said, and,
2.At least try to rebut my specific points, to wit......

First, I never said that "Hitler was not all that bad."*

What I've said is that when it comes to morality [which is only my opinion] that Hitler, Bush, Churchill, Stalin, Hirohito, FDR, etc. all lie in the same dismal moral camp.
All of them don't give a shit about individual human life, and are more than willing to unleash all the horrors of war---including rape, burning people alive, snuffing out the lives of patriots defending their homelands, etc. for what they regard as "a greater good." More specifically regarding the US invasion of Iraq in 2003 it was conducted in exactly the same manner, for similar reasons, and with the same level of civilian casualties, as the German invasion of Poland.

If you want to claim that the US invasion of Iraq, slaughter of its civilians, destruction of it's infrastructure, killing of its soldiers defending their homeland, was FUNDAMENTALLY different from the German invasion of Poland then let's hear the reasons. You will have to first start by arguing tht Saddam Hussein [the US hero in the Iran-Iraq war] had weapons of mass destruction and was preparing to give them to terrorist groups to use in the US...including atomic bombs. Is that what you're arguing?

When was the last time you stepped foot in Iraq? 30 years ago? For how long? a few days? Have you been there since the invasion? When was the last time you sat down in an Iraqi or Afghan village and spoke to some of the village elders? When was the last time you spoke to an Iraqi or Afghan politician? Since I think we both know which one of us has that experience I won't waste my breath trying to explain the situation to someone that doesn't have that experience but who thinks he knows all there is to know about the Iraq and Afghan wars. Yes I know....you learned about it in your "strategic studies" class you mention below. Hell who actually needs to be there to understand what's going on when you can just sit in a classroom and learn all there is to know, right TAE? Oh but wait! That class was probably a good decade before either of those wars took place....so you're basing your knowledge on those two wars on your extensive experience running an......... escort service?!! Well, let's just preface any knowledge we have then with...."One time back in Band camp"........

Secondly,

You still haven't anwsered the central question I posed to you about why Fance and England declared war on Germany in September 1939....

You CLAIM it was because Germany invaded Poland. That's what they said at the time, but the facts show otherwise.

Principally, how is it that when Russia also invaded Poland as Germany's ally that France and Britain FAILED TO DECLARE WAR ON RUSSIA?


You have also failed to answer why France and England rebuffed every German proposal to end the war before May 1940....

Why did the English and French fail to end the state of war when it was offered?

If you're going to claim to understand history you must first come to grips with the fact that what statesmen SAY is their motive is often different from what their actual motive is.

* Hitler was terrible in my opinon, but my opinon wasn't shared by much of the world's elites. Forget about Hitler PERSONALLY. What the elites thought had more to do with WHAT THE GERMAN PEOPLE ACCOMPLISHED UNDER THE NAZIS WHICH WOULD OTHERWISE HAVE NOT HAPPENED.
Germany's economic, scientific, and other accomplishments under the Nazis were so admired that half of the elites in THIS COUNTRY, as well as in England, France, Italy, most of Latin America, most of the middle east, etc.... as well as the LEADERSHIP OF THE US SPACE PROGRAM.......AS WELL AS 99% OF THE Central Intelligence Agency....on and on and on....thought the Germans under Hitler were admirable.

And you have to remember that in THIS COUNTRY as well as all the world that HITLER WAS REGARDED AS THE WORLD'S NECESSARY BULWARK AGAINST COMMUNISM, which most elites regarded as the greater if not only true evil.....

The fact that you fail to understand that Hitler was admired by much of the world's elites, and the reasons for it, indicates that you are not prepared to accept the realities of the last century.

At most your opinons are based on reading popular, non-scholarly books and magazines....nothing subject to peer review.

I admonish you to do what I did at a critical point in my life when I wanted to understand these issues.

You can start by enrolling in a graduate program in Strategic Studies at a major university where these matters are treated honestly, and then interacting with the kinds of people who matter....policy makers instead of order-takers.

From what you're saying it's obvious you are a simple soldier [like my own family members were], and are contemptuous of anyone who expresses a more knowledgable viewpoint than that which supports your boyish/adventure-filled warrior fantasies of RIGHT VS. WRONG, and GOOD VS. EVIL.

Yes, you're right. Because a man who claims to have worked in the government for 2-4 years and now runs an Escort Service is MUCH more qualified to understand ALL the dynamics of world events both past and present. Or is it your education that you claim makes you such an expert? I'm sorry what books have you published on these matters? 0? What government officials call The Austin Escorts when they're looking for advice on policy matters? Please tell us. What historians contact you when they are about to publish work in regards to WWII? Vietnam? The War on Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya? What? Listen there's no doubt in my mind that someone tied loosely in some way to the local, state or national government may have contacted you in regards to what Escort Girl they prefer but no one is tripping over themselves attempting to gain political or historical insight from you.
So once and for all.....accept that YOU are no more of an expert on these matters than anyone else on this board and in my opinion you actually have your head quite far up your A** when it comes to most of the history that's been discussed here.
Not that my life is any of your business but I stopped being a "simple soldier" about 20 years ago. You have no idea what my level of education is or my life/work experiences since then so you're once again running your mouth without any facts.
I'll debate back and forth on various subjects with people all day long because it's one of the things I enjoy doing. However there's a few...like you and F-Sharp who consistently come across as if you THINK you're smarter than anyone else here. You won't accept any other viewpoint other than your own no matter what evidence is presented. Hell YOU TAE go so far as to claim to know what people's "real motives" were despite "what they say" 60 years ago. Yes, because you were inside their heads.
Sorry, when you start with this kind of presumption, that your "strategic studies" class somehow gives you a deep insight into world history or current events, I have to throw in the towel. I accept my college education for what it was....just another point of view. Not one that's always correct.
If it was, every college graduate out here would be a genius, would never fail in business or politics because they know it ALL and have ALL the right answers. Give us all a break with your pompous BS. Just for the record.....some of those simple soldiers you talk about that just run around with "boyish/adventure-filled warrior fantasies of RIGHT VS. WRONG, and GOOD VS. EVIL" can run circles around you all day long. Intellectually, physically or any other way you care to name. THINKING you have more knowledge than someone is a far cry from actually HAVING more knowledge. Learn to differentiate and then we can have a debate.

Life is real. Handle the truth about it.

My sentiments EXACTLY. Accept what you are. If you can't remember who and what you are (age is creeping up on all of us) just check the name on your avatar to remind yourself.
I'll give you this....it takes a certain amount of chutzpah for a glorified pimp to run around talking about how people need to get themselves a higher education and stop thinking like a "simple soldier". LOL

If you truly HAD worked in Government in the 80's as you claim, you would know that some of the dumbest SOB's I've ever had to work around reside in that form of employment. Many of them lack the most basic forms of common sense and if you ask them any question other that what they were forced to learn and regurgitate while in school they get that helpless, blank expression on their face. Many of them couldn't make a decision under pressure if their life depended on it. Maybe that's the reason so many of them have to take advantage of some......let's just say.....artificial help to control their anxiety, stress, depression etc etc. Why? Because as you so famously said....Life is REAL. Problem is...they CAN'T handle it and all their ivy league education often doesn't help them in preparing for real life one bit. How many posters on here have mocked the education of many of the politicians holding higher office? I'm pretty sure you and F-Sharp were commenting on Perry and Bush's intellect and how their college education in comparison to Obama was a joke. If it wasn't you, there certainly were plenty who commented on that thread.Guess education alone doesn't a "smart" person make.....what do you think TAE?

You, Mr. I'm so much smarter than everyone, never even bothered to read "Mein Kampf" because it's just "Hitler writing propaganda, he didn't really believe what he wrote" but you KNOW what his "real" motives in WWII were or those of the French and British politicians? This DESPITE the fact that it's a matter of historical record that they tried to appease Germany and avoid war until Germany invaded Poland? I don't know if it's you becoming senile or what you're trying to accomplish but once again I'll remind you.....WE HAD THIS EXACT DEBATE ON THIS BOARD BEFORE and I expressed to you why they did not declare war on Russia. The fact that you don't remember that debate shows that you only care about being right, you only remember YOUR viewpoint from past debates because you never actually take in and consider anyone else's views which is why you can't remember them. I'm certainly not going to bore everyone to tears by rehashing the exact debate all over again.
As I've pointed out to you before, I was educated IN Germany, IN German schools and speak, write and read German. Which means I've had the benefit of not just the American point of view in regards to WWII but the German point of view as well. I'm also not just talking about the "new history" being taught in German schools but the experiences that the actual participants in the war shared with me. German soldiers, POW's, civilians etc. My age means that while growing up there many of those people were still around unlike today when we are loosing most of them. But again, I'm sure you'll claim that's meaningless. When I returned to Germany later as an American soldier, the fact that I spoke the language meant a lot of the older German veterans and civilians would open up to me about the war and their experiences. That's in addition to the experiences relayed to me by my own family members who lived through the war, some in Germany and some in the United States. Those veterans and civilians who lived through that time period probably have an "agenda"? Their testimony can't be relied upon like your "strategic studies" class can? A first hand account from someone who lived through that time and who can say how they felt about Hitler or Roosevelt, how their neighbors felt about them or what the political outlook of most people in their small town was is never as accurate as your strategic studies class.


It is not a comic book, or CNN, or Fox New, or the New York Times, or Life Magazine.

Again, your arrogance shining through bright and clear because with your obvious gift of clairvoyance you KNOW what books I've read, what's in my library, on my Kindle and what classes I took during the course of my education in Germany and in the United States. Funny stuff TAE!

I want to thank you though TAE.....after these debates with you and F-Sharp, you've both helped me experience an epiphany (from the ancient Greek ἐπιφάνεια, epiphaneia, "manifestation, striking appearance" the sudden realization or comprehension of the (larger) essence or meaning of something) definition provided in case the word wasn't covered in all your higher education classes you're so proud of.

Why in the world am I debating economy and history on a board dedicated to much simpler pursuits?
Actually a few posters tried to point this out to me already but perhaps I was a little too stubborn to realize it.
Consider that flaw in me now corrected.
Unless it's SSM related....sex, sports or music.....I'm done with trying to point out an alternate point of view to people who have no intention on ever considering that it's possible for an alternate point of view to even exist.

" Never Argue With A Fool – They Will Drag You Down To Their Level, Then Beat You With Experience!"

Since it's now officially Monday morning....I wish everyone a great week!



ps....

If your image of Hitler is based on his social views, remember that [except for a willingness to exterminate groups he thought were inferior] 95% of opinion at that time shared his views....even here.

It's only in the last few decades that those terrible views have been discarded by the majority in many places.

.

[theaustinescorts]

If I understand your position correctly you consider that none of the arguments I've made can be taken seriously because I operate an escort service?

If you understood anything about intelligence work you would know that connection to these kinds of operations is a staple of that thing.

It's not unusual for burned-out old intelligence hands to own such operations when they have nothing better to do, and that's me all over.

As for my government experience...

I contributed absolutely nothing of any value to the projects I participated in.
It added up to nothing.

However I was educated in the normal manner that all would-be high level operators were trained, and that forms the basis of my opinions. My primarly case officer was at one time a controversial NSC Advisor who left government and acedemics with a reputation so soiled that he had no where else to go but to spend the rest of his life in the outlying confines of UT.... where I met him. That's hardly anything to boast about.

In my graduate program one third of the others were West Point grads in elite units, and they're now Full or Lt. Col.s or Brig. Generals all near retirement. Another third went into budgeting offices in various Departments, and a third went into intl. As far as I know I was the only one with any field resume, and I didn't stay. When I look back I can see why.....none of those soft-handed college boys had the sand for field work of any kind. They were bookish, insecure, meek and mild...not anyone suited to normal life of outside an office. I cannot imagine one of the West Point grads I knew in physical combat. They were technocrats in the extreme, but at least they understood that when France and England declared war on Germany IT WASN'T BECAUSE GERMANY ATTACKED POLAND.......LOL......BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT THEY TAUGHT US AT M.I.T. AND HARVARD FOR CRYING OUT LOUD......LOL.

If you're going to argue matters of the historic causes of war, then please be prepared to consider the scholarly treatment of these matters, as I have, rather than the "popular" sources you rely on. You cannot simply dismiss Keegan or Ambrose because they've stated something you prefer not to accept.

Whenever someone points out a fact you prefer not to believe your practice is to ridicule them, regardless of how credible they otherwise are....and that's not an argument.

I personally am no scholar, have only one measely peer-reviewed publication to my name [about Iraq and Saddam Hussein for what it's worth] and claim no particular expertise other than that any grad student would have in these fields....which you however are not.

Whatever pride I might take in my former work lies in areas I undertook AFTER I left government work, including work in Sierra Leone and other such places where I was able to do small positive things.*

For that matter I like operating an escort service in an honest and reputable way, as it's not often done so. It's been an adventure, and I only wish I could share more the little dramas and interesting events which have sometimes happened along the way. I've benefited from it, and I hope others benefit also.

I like debating with you because you embody all the popular myths and misconceptions most Americans possess.

There was once a soldier named Smedley Butler who came along and tried to change this, but he's not much remembered. For that matter no one remembers anything Eisenhower said about the military either, or that Eisenhower said, "the only people I've met in government who sincerely care about the country are James Killian and those boys at M.I.T."

I know you'll never accept this, but I believe if you had lived in Germany during the Nazi years you would have been a Nazi party member, or a loyal German policeman or army soldier who would have participated in the holocaust.

That's not an insult; it's just an observation that most people will do such things when they're sufficiently motivated to do it.

90% of the victims of the holocaust [gypsies, communists, Jews, homosexuals, etc] were killed or captured by ordinary German police, army soldiers, and such, rather than Nazi party members or the SS.

The aweful truth is that when government people with weapons believe too much in the MORALITY of their cause they will do anything....and I mean anything.

What I'd like you to consider is this...

That the real professional soldiers I've known, such as the SAS operators I've worked with, never consider the morality or immorality of what they're doing.

They do what they do because they're professional soldiers.

To be a real professional soldier to me means that you've accepted that you've been trained to kill on orders from your superiors, for whatever their reason, and that the people you kill are just as convinced of the neccessity of their cause as you are of yours.

You have to accept that.

Even Usama bin-Laden believed that he held the moral high ground.

Hitler certainly believed that he held the moral high ground.**

Until you can accept that you can't call yourself a professional. You can never claim to understand the real nature, and the simple truth, of what you're doing.

There are no moral acts in war. What's moral about walking up to a man and sticking a bayonette in his belly?

..."Bomber" Harris

* You've said I've posted being a diamond "courier," but I don't think I did. No one that I knew "curriered" anyone elses stones. I did what everyone else did; I bought them, tansported them, and then sold them. There were a lot of such people there. I think I will post some of my pics from there soon, and maybe some passport pages too since you have taken such an interest. Why not?
And you might be happy to know that I still have every issue of SOF from the 1990s which had an article about SL, including the one from 1995 with McKenzie's face on the cover. Did the life insurance ever pay his wife?

**Stalin however did not believe that he held any moral ground and was a common criminal. That's why most people in American government after the war came around to admiring the Germans and loathed the Russians.

[kingorpawn]

Originally Posted by theaustinescorts

You have to accept that.

Even Usama bin-Laden believed that he held the high moral ground.

Hitler certainly believed that he held the high moral ground.

Until you can accept that you can't call yourself a professional. You can never claim to understand the real nature, and the simple truth, of what you're doing.

I like the way Mr. TAE is always twisting things around,
but he has a point.

"The Emperor and Yoda were not much different.
The Emperor wants to use the force to control the universe,
Yoda uses the force to understand it. "

Both believed their cause was the right one.

[theaustinescorts]

It's all part of life's rich pagaent.

On this planet we have it all....the good, the bad, and everything else to occupy us.

Be thankful for all of it.

[WyldemanATX]

They are occupying burger king now....

[DTorrchia]

I will stand by what I said earlier, I won't participate in any more political, economical or historical debates on this site. Since the below is more of a "personal" nature, I'll reply where appropriate.

Originally Posted by theaustinescorts

If I understand your position correctly you consider that none of the arguments I've made can be taken seriously because I operate an escort service?


If you understood anything about intelligence work you would know that connection to these kinds of operations is a staple of that thing.

It's not unusual for burned-out old intelligence hands to own such operations when they have nothing better to do, and that's me all over.

O.k., listen. The above is exactly what I'm talking about. You can't be an "burned-out old intelligence hand" when you had less than 5 years of service in that field and by your own admission you were low level and "contributed nothing of value to the projects you participated in" (your words, not mine). So in one breath you say you were there for a very short period of time then you talk about being an old-burned out intelligence hand" as if you'd been through the proverbial grinder for years on end. It's this kind of Walter Mitty state of mind that I'm talking about.



As for my government experience...

I contributed absolutely nothing of any value to the projects I participated in.
It added up to nothing.
However I was educated in the normal manner that all would-be high level operators were trained, and that forms the basis of my opinions. My primarly case officer was at one time a very controversial NSC Advisor who left government and acedemics with a reputation so soiled that he had no where else to go and nothing else to do but spend the rest of his life in the outlying confines of UT...and that's where I met him. That's hardly anything to boast about. In my graduate program one third of the others were West Point grads in elite units, and they're now Full or Lt. Col.s or Brig. Generals all near retirement. Another third went into budgeting offices in various Departments, and a third went into intl. As far as I know I was the only one with any field resume, and I didn't stay. When I look back I can see why.....none of those soft-handed college boys had the sand for field work of any kind. They were bookish, insecure, meek and mild...not anyone suited to normal life of any kind outside an office. I cannot even imagine one of the West Point grads I knew in physical combat. They were technocrats in the extreme, but at least they understood that when France and England declared war on Germany IT WASN'T BECAUSE GERMANY ATTACKED POLAND.......LOL......BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT THEY TAUGHT US AT M.I.T. AND HARVARD FOR CRYING OUT LOUD......LOL.

If you're going to argue matters of the historic causes of war, then please be prepared to consider the scholarly treatment of these matters, as I have, rather than the "popular" sources you rely on.
I personally am no scholar, have only one measely peer-reviewed publication to my name [about Iraq and Saddam Hussein for what it's worth] and claim no particular expertise other than that any grad student would have in these fields....which you however are not.

I never once claimed to be a grad student. However you don't have to be a "grad student" to have access to published material on almost any subject in the world. Again your statement about what "sources" you had access to vs the "popular" sources I rely on rings hollow. First because you don't KNOW what sources my opinion comes from and, more importantly, because in 90% of these debates you can never NAME a single source that you base your opinion on. No doubt this is done on purpose so that source can't be scrutinized and reviewed by the readers of these posts. So spare me the whole "I'm smarter than you because I went to grad school" routine. There's not a book you read there that couldn't be obtained at any Co-op bookstore. We both know this to be fact so stop with the posturing.

Whatever pride I might take in my former work lies in areas I undertook AFTER I left government work, including work in Sierra Leone and other such places where I was able to do small positive things.*

For that matter I like operating an escort service in an honest and reputable way, as it's not often done so. It's been an adventure, and I only wish I could share more the little dramas and interesting events which have sometimes happened along the way. I've benefited from it, and I hope others benefit also.

I have absolutely NOTHING against you running an escort service. From what I've seen you bring in wonderful talent and from the reviews you certainly run a reputable service. That has nothing to do with you looking DOWN on people who've chosen a different path and then questioning their education or experience. We'll get to more of that below.

I like debating with you because you embody all the popular myths and misconceptions most Americans possess. There was once a soldier named Smedley Butler who came along and tried to change this, but he's not much remembered. For that matter no one remembers anything Eisenhower said about the military services either, or that Eisenhower said that "the only people I've met in government who sincerely care about the country are Killian and those boys at M.I.T."

I know you'll never accept this, but I believe if you had lived in Germany during the Nazi years you would have been a Nazi party member, or a loyal German policeman or army soldier who would have participated in the holocaust.

That's not an insult; it's just an observation that most people will do such things when they're sufficiently motivated to do it.

It's these types of presumptuous statements that lead us into conflict, not because I'm offended but because they are so illogical and show that you participate in the common "myths" as much as you accuse others of doing so. You simply have no basis to make the above statement on. Let me clarify. There were plenty of soldiers who REFUSED to participate in atrocities. There were Nazi Party members, soldiers and Officers who helped Jews because they felt it was wrong what was being done to them Just one quick example: Georg Ferdinand Duckwitz was a German member of the Nazi party. Due to his actions, it is estimated that around 99% of Denmark’s Jews survived the Holocaust. That's just one quick example. Another would be the German Officer Wilm Hosenfeld, who helped to hide or rescue several Poles including Jews, in Nazi-occupied Poland. You make it sound as if all are robots, brainwashed and incapable of independent thought. Nothing could be further from the truth. A soldier from ANY country represents the society from which he was taken and placed into the military service. The military does not teach one to kill innocent civilians. In fact, it's drummed into every U.S. soldier that an unlawful order should NOT be obeyed.
The fact that you don't understand this is not really surprising. Though you try to toot your horn above about what Military officers you sat next to in "grad school" or what "SAS operators" you had casual contact with, the fact is you never were in the military, never underwent the training, never served and therefor you cannot comment intelligently on what a soldier, of any rank, feels, thinks or knows.
As I've pointed out, there's a huge difference fighting a war against a uniformed enemy that's easy to identify and fighting an unconventional war where the majority of enemy combatants wear civilian clothes and use terror tactics as their primary tactical weapon. There's a huge difference between a systematic government POLICY of rounding up and executing innocent civilians and civilians being killed because of their actions and the difficulty in determining friend from foe.
You obviously don't have the background, knowledge or experience to understand these differences and the moral implications associated with them.

For arguments sake though, let's ask this. Who really IS the mindless robot?
A grad student who simply regurgitates what one professor or another taught him in grad school or the military person who's been educated and then sees first hand through his experiences in the war zones being discussed what part of his education had merit and what parts were wrong based on what he's seeing and experiencing for himself? Just food for thought TAE.

90% of the victims of the holocaust [gypsies, communists, Jews, homosexuals, etc] were killed or captured by ordinary German police, army soldiers, and such, rather than Nazi party members or the SS.

The aweful truth is that when government people with weapons believe too much in the morality of their cause they will do anything....and I mean anything.

More broad sweeping statements. More people have been killed by crime in the United States in the last 10 years than people that were killed by the U.S. military in Iraq and Afghanistan. Look up the numbers. Certainly with your grad school credentials you can google how many people per year are killed by violent crime in the U.S.A. and then compare that to the number of Iraqi's and Afghan's killed during the same time period. I've done it before on this board but I'll leave it up to you this time. Yet those people in the USA weren't killed by "government people with weapons who believe too much in the morality of their cause"......LOL. I swear I don't know where you come up with these dramatic statements but the numbers in regards to the U.S. military certainly don't add up. Guess they skipped that in your graduate level statistics class?



What I'd like you to consider is this...

That the real professional soldiers I've known, such as the SAS operators I've worked with, never consider the morality or immorality of what they're doing.

They do what they do because they're professional soldiers.

Again, this is absolute hogwash. You can't speak for what's going on in an SAS operator's mind because you've never been one, never been through their selection and training course, have no idea what they are taught in regards to the ethical and moral standard that's expected of them.
As I stated above, the idea you're trying to throw out there that they are some machine, incapable of feeling emotion or considering the morality of their actions is ridiculous. It shows that at best you brushed up against them briefly but you've certainly never spent any significant amount of time around them. First, to be honest, they wouldn't tolerate your type in their midst very long. Second, by your theory they would do anything if ordered to do so and if you knew ANYTHING about SPEC OPS it would be that they are selected exactly BECAUSE they are capable of exercising independent thought. Again, it's easy to see that you are one of the types that if he spends 5 minutes talking to someone then you think you "know" them. Ridiculous!

To be a real professional soldier to me means that you've accepted that you've been trained to kill on orders from your superiors, for whatever the reason, and that the people you kill are just as convinced of the morality of their cause as you are of yours.

One of the most asinine statements you've made. Many, MANY of times, soldiers, officers and yes...even your SAS types have REFUSED to carry out orders because they felt the order was unlawful (this could be based on the order being immoral, unethical or unjust).
In fact, it is the DUTY of a soldier to disobey an unlawful order and his defense that "I was just following orders" will not protect him from criminal prosecution if the orders he followed were unlawful.


You have to accept that.

No, I don't for the many reasons listed above. Soldiers are capable and duty bound to determine which orders they are given are lawful and which are not. Most professionals that leave the military retain this thought process and carry it with them to whatever jobs they subsequently hold. This is again where I have to take issue with an Escort service owner telling me what I "HAVE" to accept when it comes to matters where you simply have no first hand experience, no training, NOTHING to base this on other than your own opinion. Sorry, I'll have to say that I'll make my own decision as to what constitutes a "Professional" in my line of work and what doesn't. The Client that hires me is certainly free to comment on my professionalism but you simply lack the credentials to do so.

Even Usama bin-Laden believed that he held the moral high ground.

Hitler certainly believed that he held the moral high ground.d

* You've said I've posted being a diamond "courier," but I don't think I did. No one that I knew "curriered" anyone elses stones. I did what everyone else did; I bought them, tansported them, and then sold them. There were a lot of such people there. I think I will post some of my pics from there soon, and maybe some passport pages too since you have taken such an interest. Why not?
And you might be happy to know that I still have every issue of SOF from the 1990s which had an article about SL, including the one from 1995 with McKenzie's face on the cover. Did the life insurance ever pay his wife?

To be honest, I don't care if you were a buyer, courier, or transporter. You didn't take part in the fighting of that war or any other war EVER. That's what matters when we're discussing the broad, sweeping statements you continue to make and when you insinuate that you have the background and experience to base those statements on. I think we both know better.

[DTorrchia]

Originally Posted by kingorpawn

I like the way Mr. TAE is always twisting things around,
but he has a point.

"The Emperor and Yoda were not much different.
The Emperor wants to use the force to control the universe,
Yoda uses the force to understand it. "

Both believed their cause was the right one.

Now THAT was funny!

[kingorpawn]

It's possible that the only war experience Mr. TAE has had is the issue of SOF.

[DTorrchia]

Originally Posted by kingorpawn

It's possible that the only war experience Mr. TAE has had is the issue of SOF.

I found it rather amusing that less than two weeks ago he was mocking anyone that reads SOF and now brags about how many issues he himself has.

[theaustinescorts]

D'Torchia,

I think the debate was on the reasons why France and England declared war on Germany.

I've stated that when I was in graduate school I and everyone else was taught that the German invasion of Poland was a pretext, and that the reasons were different from that given to the public.

I've asked you why England and France didn't also declare war on the USSR as well...you have no answer.

When I point out that Keegan and Ambrose have written what the services learned about morale problems during the war you merely dismiss them with ridicule but have no rebuttal to the facts.

When I point to a scholar like Trita Parsi and his work on Israeli-Iranian relations you ridicule him because his book was published by Yale University....and you've never been to a University.

You imply that because you've been to Iraq recently that you are more qualified than I am to speak on issues of why the Bush administration made the decison to attack Iraq, and lied about the reasons for it.

When you can't support your arguments with facts you imply without any knowledge that I'm not who I say I am, and otherwise resort to your childish gigling, laughing, and pathetic attempts at ridicule.

You've never been to University, have contempt for intellectuals, and are unable to support any of your warlike views with argument or evidence.

I would have to repeat what I've stated before....

You are not a professional soldier. I've worked with SAS, Delta operators, Legionaires and others who are real professionals...and you are not like they are. You certainly have none of the intellect, maturity or conviction of the West Point grads I went to school with for that matter.

You are little more than a low-level self-appointed hero who travels the world looking for someone to shoot at because you think it's fun, and you convince yourself in your own mind that virtue and honor is on your side when it's clearly not. That's why I've said someone with your beliefs would have been typical of the German police, soldiers and others who perpetrated the holocaust, which you consider was something committed by people morally inferior to yourself.

As I've commended you to do before, next time you're in Iraq continue looking for those WMDs you believed so strongly were always there.

Your beliefs about those have as much merit as your other opinions.

ps....
Anytime you would like I will meet with you so you can see what the truth really is. We can start by going directly to the UT registrar where my entire record from MIT is found, and then proceed from there. If you're not prepared to do that please refrain from any more insinuations over the internet regarding my career. I'm sure however you would never meet with someone like myself, a real person as opposed to an internet phoney/pretender as you are.

[F-Sharp]

Now that's some serious "Ground Truth".

Originally Posted by theaustinescorts

D'Torchia,

I think the debate was on the reasons why France and England declared war on Germany.

I've stated that when I was in graduate school I and everyone else was taught that the German invasion of Poland was a pretext, and that the reasons were different from that given to the public.

I've asked you why England and France didn't also declare war on the USSR as well...you have no answer.

When I point out that Keegan and Ambrose have written what the services learned about morale problems during the war you merely dismiss them with ridicule but have no rebuttal to the facts.

When I point to a scholar like Trita Parsi and his work on Israeli-Iranian relations you ridicule him because his book was published by Yale University....and you've never been to a University.

You imply that because you've been to Iraq recently that you are more qualified than I am to speak on issues of why the Bush administration made the decison to attack Iraq, and lied about the reasons for it.

When you can't support your arguments with facts you imply without any knowledge that I'm not who I say I am, and otherwise resort to your childish gigling, laughing, and pathetic attempts at ridicule.

You've never been to University, have contempt for intellectuals, and are unable to support any of your warlike views with argument or evidence.

I would have to repeat what I've stated before....

You are not a professional soldier. I've worked with SAS, Delta operators, Legionaires and others who are real professionals...and you are not like they are. You certainly have none of the intellect, maturity or conviction of the West Point grads I went to school with for that matter.

You are little more than a low-level self-appointed hero who travels the world looking for someone to shoot at because you think it's fun, and you convince yourself in your own mind that virtue and honor is on your side when it's clearly not. That's why I've said someone with your beliefs would have been typical of the German police, soldiers and others who perpetrated the holocaust, which you consider was something committed by people morally inferior to yourself.

As I've commended you to do before, next time you're in Iraq continue looking for those WMDs you believed so strongly were always there.

Your beliefs about those have as much merit as your other opinions.

ps....
Anytime you would like I will meet with you so you can see what the truth really is. If you're not prepared to do that please refrain from any more insinuations over the internet regarding my career. I'm sure however you would never meet with someone like myself, a real person as opposed to a pretender as you are.