FREE PALESTINE

[kingorpawn]

Historical and Archaeological evidence proves that the land belongs to the Jews.
The Jews will never be removed from their homeland.

[Naggerguy]

The Jews and the Muslims need to be carpet bombed. FUCK THE MIDDLE EAST!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5Pi7BVGy_8

[theaustinescorts]

When the issue of a Jewish state in Palestine emerged in 1948 it was opposed by the State Department, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and the CIA.

Truman did it anyway because it was an election year.

However Truman also tried to destroy Israel by barring any arms transfers to them when the Arabs attacked.

Israel was saved from destruction when Joseph Stalin sent massive amounts of arms.

We've been living with this action by Truman ever since.

[kingorpawn]

Originally Posted by theaustinescorts

When the issue of a Jewish state in Palestine emerged in 1948 it was opposed by the State Department, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and the CIA.

Truman did it anyway because it was an election year.

However Truman also tried to destroy Israel by barring any arms transfers to them when the Arabs attacked.

Israel was saved from destruction when Joseph Stalin sent massive amounts of arms.

We've been living with this action by Truman ever since.

Whether the US wanted it or not doesn't matter. I'm sure your statements are true, at least, Truman's refusal to send them arms. Either way you look at it, the Israelis have fought for their homeland. They have acquired more land through war just like the United States acquired Texas, Arizona, New Mexico and California through war with Mexico. If we tell the Israelis to give back or divide the land that they fought for then shouldn't we have to give Texas,Arizona, New Mexico and California back to Mexico? If the Jews are occupying Arab land then we are occupying Mexican land. It sounds hypocritical for the USA to make those demands to Israel without applying that same logic to ourselves.

[S O B]

Texians revolted and won their independence from Mexico in 1835. The US annexed Texas in 1845. Oh and Pussy Rider started the name calling with me in a Palestine thread months ago. So I just figured that was OK here. And safe too, from behind the keyboard and all.

[kingorpawn]

Originally Posted by S O B

Texans revolted and won their independence from Mexico in 1835. The US annexed Texas in 1845. Oh and Pussy Rider started the name calling with me in a Palestine thread months ago. So I just figured that was OK here. And safe too, from behind the keyboard and all.

Yes, but Mexico still considered Texas, Mexican territory, and the annexation of Texas by the US ignited the Mexican American War which in the end Mexico officially gave Texas along with the other States to the USA. Still it doesn't change the fact that the Southwest belong to Mexico. Should we give it back? The majority of the Texans who revolted were Americans with a few Mexicans in the mix. Based on your argument you can view the Texans like the Israelis and the Mexicans like the Palestinians which means Texas should be given back to Mexico if Israel has to return their land to the Palestinians.

By the way, my ancestors were the original Spanish Conquistadors who brought the Americas under the control of Spain and who later fought to free it from Spanish rule.

[theaustinescorts]

Originally Posted by kingorpawn

Either way you look at it, the Israelis have fought for their homeland. They have acquired more land through war just like the United States acquired Texas, Arizona, New Mexico and California through war with Mexico. If we tell the Israelis to give back or divide the land that they fought for then shouldn't we have to give Texas,Arizona, New Mexico and California back to Mexico? If the Jews are occupying Arab land then we are occupying Mexican land. It sounds hypocritical for the USA to make those demands to Israel without applying that same logic to ourselves.

You actually raise a valid point.

I favor the US keeping all the land it stole because the American system is better for the people we conquered than the system they had made for themselves.*

This is why many peoples conquered by Rome were happy to be under Roman dominion -- because it was often better than what they had before.

In 1967 when Israel conquered many new Arab lands most Israelis felt the Arabs they conquered would soon welcome it because Israel offered more than what the Jordanians or Egyptians or Syrians ever offered them. But it didn't happen because these Arabs WERE NOT ABSORBED INTO ISRAEL BECAUSE IF THEY WERE ISRAEL WOULD BE OUTNUMBERED WITHIN BY NON-JEWS.

This is the difference between the American experience of conquest and that of Israel. We are a melting pot and they are not. We absorb and convert those we conquer and they merely exploit them.

Personally I favor Israel absorbing all of Palestine into itself and simply making all the Arabs, Druse, etc. Israeli citizens.

But the Israelis refuse to do this.

Israel will always treat the conquered Arabs not as citizens but as conquered third-class helots. The reason for this is because the Israelis are going to try to cling onto their national charter that they are a state ruled for and by Jews, and everyone else must be second class at best.

That's the root.

*I think a case can be made that the US should invade Mexico at the present time. I think most Mexicans would greet us as liberators because the situation there has reached rock bottom. I think we should consider invading Mexico and eventually absorbing all of it into the US. When I was in Sierra Leone in the blood diamond war of the 1990s the Sierra Leoneans begged their former colonial masters, the British, to re-colonize them to save them from themselves.

[kingorpawn]

Originally Posted by theaustinescorts

You actually raise a valid point.

I favor the US keeping all the land it stole because the American system is better for the people we conquered than the system they had made for themselves.*

This is why many peoples conquered by Rome were happy to be under Roman dominion -- because it was often better than what they had before.

In 1967 when Israel conquered many new Arab lands most Israelis felt the Arabs they conquered would soon welcome it because Israel offered more than what the Jordanians or Egyptians or Syrians ever offered them. But it didn't happen because these Arabs WERE NOT ABSORBED INTO ISRAEL BECAUSE IF THEY WERE ISRAEL WOULD BE OUTNUMBERED WITHIN BY NON-JEWS.

This is the difference between the American experience of conquest and that of Israel. We are a melting pot and they are not. We absorb and convert those we conquer and they merely exploit them.

Personally I favor Israel absorbing all of Palestine into itself and simply making all the Arabs, Druse, etc. Israeli citizens.

But the Israelis refuse to do this.

Israel will always treat the conquered Arabs not as citizens but as conquered third-class helots. The reason for this is because the Israelis are going to try to cling onto their national charter that they are a state ruled for and by Jews, and everyone else must be second class at best.

That's the root.

*I think a case can be made that the US should invade Mexico at the present time. I think most Mexicans would greet us as liberators because the situation there has reached rock bottom. I think we should consider invading Mexico and eventually absorbing all of it into the US. When I was in Sierra Leone in the blood diamond war of the 1990s the Sierra Leoneans begged their former colonial masters, the British, to re-colonize them to save them from themselves.

The Arabs,Palestinians were offered Israel citizenship, but refused it because that would be considered treason by other Arabs because it would require recognizing Israel sovereignty. Living in Israel, the only democracy in the middle east, is better than those other Arab/muslim countries where women can't even drive, where a guy can't walk into a mall just to meet a girl unless he has family with him, where their people are kept poor while the leaders steal all the countries wealth. The USA and Israel gave millions to Arafat, but the Palestinian people were still poor. Why is Arafat widow still receiving millions of dollars while the Palestinians are living poverty? I dated a Palestinian girl once and she was born and raised in Jerusalem before moving to the USA and she told me that as far as she was concerned the majority of the Palestinians lived peaceably with the Jews. Jews walked into Palestinian stores and Palestinian walked into Jewish stores. That they did not elect Arafat as their leader and that he was a terrorist who incited the violence. And I can go and go with more stuff.

In Mexico's case which I'm very familiar with I agree with you. I've been there and seen the violence. Rumor has it that President Bush intended to invade Mexico if the Mexican govt. could not control it, but he got bogged down with Iraq and Afghanistan, so he didn't do it. I also heard that Govt. Perry was planning to create refuge camps in South Texas because once Bush invaded Mexico, thousands of Mexicans were going to cross the border immediately. At some point, the USA will have to take serious steps with Mexico.

[Billy_Saul]

Originally Posted by theaustinescorts

these Arabs WERE NOT ABSORBED INTO ISRAEL BECAUSE IF THEY WERE ISRAEL WOULD BE OUTNUMBERED WITHIN BY NON-JEWS.

This is the difference between the American experience of conquest and that of Israel. We are a melting pot and they are not. We absorb and convert those we conquer and they merely exploit them.

This is BS... Arabs in Israel (20%+) are allowed to vote and considered permanent residents even if they refuse citizenship. What more would you have Israel do?

[theaustinescorts]

The Israelis allowed a small number of Arabs and Druse to become citizens and that's all.

Even with that small number their population increase rates mean that they will be the majority at some point and then they will be a force to reckon with in the Kinesset. They will be able to vote out the Jewish part of the Jewish state.

Otherwise it's not true that Israel has made any genuine offers to make all Palestinian Arabs citizens. In fact the reason why the issue of refugees returning to Israel is off the table for Israel is that if they returned there would be more non-Jews than Jews in Israel.

This is the heart of the matter.

I wish that Israel would just absorb all the Arabs, Druse, so forth and make them all citizens but they will never do that. There would be controversy among the Arabs were it forthcoming but it's never been seriously offered.

Actually the rumour about a Bush invasion of Mexico is not valid. There are no plans whatsoever to invade. But if the US were to begin planning such there would be genuine pressure on the Mexico elite to stop their pillaging. Mexico is by far THE MOST CORRUPT COUNTRY IN ALL OF LATIN AMERICA. Even Columbia and El Salvador are better. There's been so much reform and progress everywhere but Mexico stands out as the one truely horrible place where elites care absolutely nothing about anything except becoming billionaires.

[kingorpawn]

Originally Posted by theaustinescorts

The Israelis allowed a small number of Arabs and Druse to become citizens and that's all.

Even with that small number their population increase rates mean that they will be the majority at some point and then they will be a force to reckon with in the Kinesset. They will be able to vote out the Jewish part of the Jewish state.

Otherwise it's not true that Israel has made any genuine offers to make all Palestinian Arabs citizens. In fact the reason why the issue of refugees returning to Israel is off the table for Israel is that if they returned there would be more non-Jews than Jews in Israel.

This is the heart of the matter.

I wish that Israel would just absorb all the Arabs, Druse, so forth and make them all citizens but they will never do that. There would be controversy among the Arabs were it forthcoming but it's never been seriously offered.

Actually the rumour about a Bush invasion of Mexico is not valid. There are no plans whatsoever to invade. But if the US were to begin planning such there would be genuine pressure on the Mexico elite to stop their pillaging. Mexico is by far THE MOST CORRUPT COUNTRY IN ALL OF LATIN AMERICA. Even Columbia and El Salvador are better. There's been so much reform and progress everywhere but Mexico stands out as the one truely horrible place where elites care absolutely nothing about anything except becoming billionaires.

This is it. The Arabs want Palestine then should fight for it.
Winner take all. I have Jewish and Palestinian friends and that's what
I tell them. I've gotten into heavy duty arguments about Israel with these
Palestinian folks I know. I also have a Muslim Syrian friend and he supports Jewish ownership of Israel and his father fought against the Israelis. That's what tell this Palestinian guys that instead of living in the US and just talking they should get on a plane and go fight for it.

I agree with everything you said about Mexico.

[Billy_Saul]

Originally Posted by theaustinescorts

The Israelis allowed a small number of Arabs and Druse to become citizens and that's all.

.

Once again, totally false.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_nationality_law

Adults may acquire Israeli citizenship through naturalization. To be eligible for naturalization, a person must have resided in Israel for three years out of the previous five years.

Be it 1948 when blanket citizenship was offered, the 1970s when everyone in the Golan Heights was given citizenship, or the current policy of a standing offer to naturalize, anyone in Israel who wants citizenship is able to attain it as long as they are not in the country illegally.

[DTorrchia]

Originally Posted by theaustinescorts

Israel was saved from destruction when Joseph Stalin sent massive amounts of arms.

Please document where Israel received "massive amounts of arms" from Stalin.
He certainly didn't send them any Armor which they badly needed.

Feel free to review the weapons listed below that were used by the Israeli Army during the war of Independence. Point out any Soviet weapons you may see and if that proves impossible, document the % of arms that Stalin's regime sent to Israel.

Ever since the end of WWII, the arms industry of Czechoslovakia provided arms and ammunition to whomever could afford to pay their prices. Rogue states, mercenaries, etc etc.
The fact is, although Stalin AT FIRST supported the idea of a Jewish state, he quickly changed his mind and anti-zionism was encouraged by Stalin prior to his death.

"In its war to gain independence, Israel initially had only a small armored force, the 8th Armored Brigade, equipped with a hodgepodge of pre–World War II French Hotchkiss light tanks, World War II–era British Cromwells, and U.S. Shermans, the latter purchased from Italy and the Philippines".

Between June 1947 and October 31, 1949 the Jewish agency (later to become the Israeli government) seeking weapons for Operation Balak, made several purchases of weapons in Czechoslovakia, some of them of former German army weapons, captured by the Czechoslovak army on its national territory, or newly produced German weapons from Czechoslovakia's post-war production. In this deal, sale activities of Czechoslovak arms factories were coordinated by a special-purpose department of the Československé závody strojírenské a kovodělné, n.p. (Czechoslovak Metal-Working and Engineering Works, Nat.Ent.) Holding, called Sekretariát D (Secretariat D), headed by Ret.Gen. Jan Heřman.
One of the first large contracts was signed on January 14, 1948, and included 200 MG 34 machine guns, 4,500 P 18 rifles and 50,400,000 rounds of ammunition. The deliveries from Czechoslovakia proved important for the establishment of Israel.


Israeli arms during 1948:

British World War II era trucks, improvised armored cars/trucks, White M3A1 Scout Cars, Daimler Armoured Cars, M3 Half-tracks, IHC M14 Half-tracks, M5 Half-tracks
Mortars, 2-inch (51 mm) British mortars, 65 mm French howitzers (Napoleonchiks), 120 mm French mortars, Davidka mortars
Spitfires, Avia S-199s, B-17 Flying Fortresses, P-51 Mustangs, C-47 Dakotas
Sten guns, Mills grenades, Karabiner 98k (Czech copies), Bren Guns, MG-34 Machine guns, Thompson submachine guns, Lee Enfield rifles, Molotov cocktails, PIAT anti-tank infantry weapon

[theaustinescorts]

Of course anyone can apply for Israeli citizenship if they stay there for three years prior!

That stipulation of course is meant to exclude all the Palestinian Arabs who fled in 1948 after Israeli terrorists began massacring them to institute their ethnic cleansing. The Israelis have never let any of these people return for more than a day at a time to mix concrete or dig ditches, so of course they cannot be there for the three prior years required.

The Israelis will never let these people return, and the so-called "right of return" has been off the table in all negotiations because if they came back they would outnumber the Jews as well as re-claim their property which was stolen.

And as for the role of Israeli terrorism*, it was also of course applied to the British and then Americans in Egypt after Nasser took control there. Anyone can look up the "Lavon Affair" in which the Egyptians rolled up many Israeli agents who were ordered to kill Americans and British citizens in Egypt. Now there are rumblings that they're doing the same kind of program there again.

In 1948 the Israelis had a variety of arms from a lot of places, but very little of what appears on the order of battle except for small arms and mortars was servicable.

In reality after a few days the small arms the Israelis had ran out of ammunition, and it was Stalin who ordered the Czechs to provide the arms which saved the day.

At that time Czechoslovakia was completely ruled by the communist party there, which was completely ruled by the Politbureau in Moscow, which was totally dominated by Stalin.

It was Czechoslovakia which was used again to ship arms to Guatamala in the crisis there in 1954 which eventually led to the US-sponsored coup. By that time though Stalin was dead and the Politbureau managed as best they could on their own.

*the Israelis are proud of their terrorist history. When the Stern Gang's founder [facist poet Avraham Stern] was killed by the British, it's leader became Yitsak Shamir, who thereafter was one of Israel's longest-serving Prime Ministers in the 1980s.

[Yssup Rider]

Your hatred runs too deep to deal with TAE.

Sorry bro. Youre not going to win over this bunch here.

And, SOB ... you're sounding an awful lot like another poster in this thread.