THIS MADNESS HAS TO STOP!!!!

[Longermonger]

Originally Posted by john_galt

Pay attention to reality; the Governor of Wisconsin is having a problem with "public unions" and not unions in general. Nothing that has been proposed would affect private unions.
One other point; the Governor wants the people in the union to have the right to vote on their participation in the union. So do you support the right of the people to be free or the right of the union to coerce participation?

Wisconsin is not in a vacuum. There are other bills in other states. The whole "only public unions" is a Fox/ Koch brothers falsehood to push their microwave legislation through. Let's hear all of those lie spitting talking heads say how much they love private unions. ...awful quiet, huh?

The whole "right to work" voting thing is an old union busting ploy. They tip their cards by trotting that tired old talking point out. Unions are just small American businesses. Why do you hate small businesses so much, Galt? Or do you just hate Americans?

You do realized that you live in a union? You know..."in order to form a more perfect union"...that thing. A parallel would be to have each state negotiate with the federal government, one on one. Or 49 to 1, really. In that kind of world Kansas (the worker) could be forced to do anything the federal government (management) wants. Alone they'd have no bargaining leverage. Is that what you want? Why do you despise state's rights and love the federal government, Galt?

[Bartman1963]

No one has mentioned that a part of the bill is to take the public power plants in Wisconsin (I think there are 8). Who will get them? This article seems to say that it could be a done deal... http://crooksandliars.com/susie-madr...ker-would-rath

[Cheaper2buyit]

My mom works for the union has great pay cant get fired to send her job over seas has the best heath care pays 40 amonth with 20, copay intil she dies plus half pay if disabled, & if they try to fire her she goes to union & they better have a good reason why. So you tell me your job is better.

[Longermonger]

Cheaper, Republicans would call your mother a thief and a leech because she's got a union job. All of those things she likes about her job were negotiated through collective bargaining. Republicans would like nothing better than to take away collective bargaining from workers and bust ALL unions so they can increase profits for the investor class. Republicans would like to make it easy for big business to ignore the agreements they've signed and just cram new ones down workers' throats.

While these same Republicans and big businesses are trying to bust unions...they have formed unions of their own. They just don't call them that. Their organizations are called associations, committees, foundations, or networks.

Just as a higher tide lifts all ships, unions have improved the lives of all working Americans. Even those that aren't union workers benefit from the workplace improvements and higher wages due to unions. Republicans would like to wipe out unions so they could drag everyone down. They can't do it all in one fell swoop, so they're forced to do it in stages.

The first stage is to get all of the newly minted Republican governors (who formed a little union of their own...) to push nearly identical anti-public union legislation through at the same time. They don't even bother to deny it anymore. Their claim is that there is an emergency (!) and that the sky will fall and snakes will eat your babies if you don't give them everything they want RIGHT NOW...or something like that. They're partly correct. There is a budget shortfall due to a poor economy and too much government spending...that THEIR party created.

The next stage is to go after private sector unions. That's always been on the wish list of big business. But now Republicans think they have a mandate and would like to cripple unions so they can choke off the amount of money that union workers donate to Democrats. Did you notice how this is happening EARLY in these Republicans' terms? That's so it will have maximum effect in the 2012 elections.

Just think about what happens if Republicans win everything in the 2012 elections. Big business will own the government (more than they already do now, and cheaper) and will be able to do anything that they want. It'll be like George W. Bush all over again but with a shittier economy.

[Cheaper2buyit]

What kills me is people dont remember when plant workers made good money that guy that built your ford use to make 20 a hour back then now cars cost more they pay them 12 a hour but guess what a ceo still makes mills back then & now what the fuck

[john_galt]

Once again you confuse private unions with public unions. Private unions produce a product and their benefits come from those profits and the savings of the members. Public unions produce nothing and in the case of WS have nearly all of their expenses paid for by the public including people who make less money than the union members.

[lacrew_2000]

Isn't the kerfuffle over Walker's (and the legislature) trying to have a good old fashioned democratic VOTE on all the issues listed above...and the democrat lawmakers have fled the state!?!?, to avoid having a quorum.

Why is a vote so offensive. Is it not reasonable for the people's elected representatives to decide what they pay for the people's business. (BTW, this is the broomstick in the spokes you get with public service unions). If the people of Wisconsin have no say over how much they pay for government services...who on earth does?

The fugitive lawmakers should go back to their state, have a vote; and, if the 'people' of Wisconsin are so opposed to this, it can be reversed in the next election. I thought that was our system....fix your grievances with elections vs. 'its time to get bloody'.

I know I'm not going to convince the hardcore believers here, but ponder for just a moment exactly what is happening in Wisconsin...what does it mean to the democratic process if the governor looses in Wisconsin...what if the political roles are reversed the next time this happens...it it still 'ok' to circumvent the democratic process? The governor and republican legislators in WI weren't beamed down from outer space...the 'people' elected them. I'm still naive enough to think elections have consequences I guess.

[BigMikeinKC]

Anyone listen to the "prank call" in which he discussed his strategy with whom he thought was a campaign contributer. Talked about putting plants in the inion protests to make them look bad.

Could it be that the inappropriate signs and actions were conducted by them?

[lacrew_2000]

Link to the text of the prank phone call:

http://host.madison.com/wsj/article_...cc4c002e0.html

[catnipdipper]

Lacrew2000 a usually cool head. What about all of the obstructionism of the Republicans in Congress against judicial nominations, secret holds on appointees and the blockage by threatened and used filibuster to just be assholes in general.

Same deal different rules to me.

It is overreaching on a misinterpreted mandate in my opinion.

[lakecat]

There's been talk of mandates in this thread, with the implication that if there even was one it has been misinterpreted by the Republicans. I'm curious what you think was the message that was sent by voters in November with historic gains by the GOP in the House and, just as important, in state and local legislations across the country? What IS the mandate the majority of people want since the Republicans have misinterpreted it?

[catnipdipper]

JOBS! And Spending Reductions based on ginned up anger and frustrations.

Not abortion, immigration, voter I.D's, or union busting, and removing monies for Public Broadcasting. Those are social/political areas that were not the motivation for the votes that were cast.

Don't even go there to link the elimination of Collective bargaining to budget balancing. It doesn't float.

[lacrew_2000]

Both sides have blocked nominees, fillibustered, etc...and its changed throughout the years, as the house and senate have changed their own rules. Its part of the process...all within the set 'rules' of the era.

Not showing up to avoid a quorum? Its kinda like missing movement in the military. Last time the GOP tried it, arrest warrants were issued and at least one was physically hauled in to the senate chamber. Apparently its not within the 'rules'....which is why these guys from WI have physically fled the state to avoid apprehension by state police....their actions threaten to 'shut down' the government (aka the 'people's business').

I see a difference between a fillibuster (embedded in the rules) and deliberately denying a quorum (not within the rules)...and so did the Democrat leadership 20 years ago.

[catnipdipper]

Absenteeism in defense of liberty is no vice!

Never misunderestimate nor refudiate the power of the absent!

[lacrew_2000]

Accepting the notion that the GOP has gone completely off the reservation, and misinterpreted their mandate...what now? Do we:

1. Refuse to participate in the legislative process, flee from governmental duties, make calls for violence, close government run institutions such as schools.

2. Vote the rascals out at the next electoral opportunity.

If option 1 is chosen in this instance, why isn't option 1 chosen in every instance? Or why even bother with elections at all.

I understand alot of people are pissed at what Walker is doing - but (when the tables were turned) our current president summed it up quite nicely: "We Won"....elections should have consequences.