Mosque at ground zero

[Guest031411-2]

*sigh*

[Mokoa]

Originally Posted by fatenchilada

It's been nine years and still nothing's been done to replace the Towers except talk and platatudes. If the site were as important to the elites of this country as the public feels it to be then it wouldn't continue to be an empty hole the ground. All this controversy about the Mosque is just a distraction to make pertubations in the public while the elites sit back and laugh at the rest of us. The rich and powerful in this country don't give a shit about the values of nationhood expressed so rightfully by all on this board.

Wrong.

Construction at the site for the Memorial as well as the new towers has been going on for years and is scheduled to be completed by September 11, 2011.

http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/rise-of-freedom/

[LadiesFan]

Originally Posted by Rand Al'Thor

It's amusing to see the choices of words.

Mosque at ground zero
Mosque near ground zero
community center near ground zero.

Which version you choose depends on if you choose to let logic drive your thoughts, or emotion.

The last answer is the logical/accurate one, the first is the emotional one. The second one could be debated either way.

BTW there already is a strip club very near the proposed site... love the ideas for the gay clubs though

LF

[mj2749]

I'm not sure if emotions alone are driving the Mosque debate. 9/11 wasn't simply about the destruction done and the lives lost. It's what we learned AFTER 9/11 that stuck in many people's mind. The depth to which Muslim organizations had infiltrated the U.S. and under the umbrella of "charity" had collected millions of dollars (60 million from the HLF alone in the U.S.) to be sent to terrorists overseas. So I think people are rightfully concerned about what any of these organizations now say is the intended purpose of this "Community Center" near Ground Zero. It's not about freedom of religion if your stated purpose is to wage a "non-violent Jihad" from within to United States to make Islam the one and only "true" religion and Sharia the true law of the land. This is the stated goal of the Muslim Brotherhood within the United States. To me that's no longer about religion, it's about attacking our very way of life, our ideals, what our nation has stood for in the last 200 years. The mosques are just one more means toward those stated goals.
You have to understand how many of these people think. Example: The Imam of the proposed mosque says he's against Terrorism and is a "moderate". Yet when directly asked if he considers Hamas a terrorist organization he stated..."I don't want to get caught up in such a debate". He has also refused to answer questions of whether he's against "non-violent Jihad" within the USA. So apparently, as long as you're just practicing the peaceful overthrow of the USA, you can consider yourself a moderate.

[rCoder]

It's really quite simple, we just need to send all religious evangelists to be judged by their maker. End of problem.

[twanks]

To all the people that are screaming about a "Muslim" plot to destroy the "American" way of life, please go read some history and try to learn from it. If you read the news and opinions of the media in America going back to the founding of this country, there has always been a minority group that was the object of hate and attributed with plots and powers to destroy this country if not controlled. It happened to Catholics, Jews, Irish, Chinese, Polish, Italian...every possible grouping you could find. What we learn from this is that these groups wish to assimilate the same as every other group, join this country and adopt some customs while still retaining some from their culture. This community center/mosque 2 blocks from ground zero is basically a YMCA for Muslims and anyone who wishes to contribute. Sadly anyone who is against this building is a bigot, because you are holding all Muslims accountable for the actions of a group of crazy, deluded, Saudi Arabians.

Besides, religion is a myth that is the root cause of this problem. What I would like to see is for the tax exempt status of these corrupt institutions revoked. Let the lie peddlers, child diddlers, and snake oil salesmen contribute their fair share like every other business. It is time we put away the childish fantasies and start living together like adults.

[mj2749]

Twanks, unfortunately, responses like yours are starting to become common place in our country. If someone has a different point of view than yours, then instantly the name calling and "labeling" starts. So anyone who is against this mosque is a "bigot"?
I'm not sure how long you've worked in predominantly Muslim countries or how many Muslims you've actually had in depth conversations with or how many Muslim friends you have. I've spent the last 6 years in Iraq and Afghanistan. The points I made in my post are dealing with specific groups and their stated beliefs as documented in their own literature. I by no means feel all Muslims are bad. I believe Muslims have a right to pray and worship as much as any other religious group. That does not mean I will bury my head in the sand and pretend that there are not groups out there with evil intentions toward the United States. These groups exist within America as well as overseas. Maybe it's YOU that should do a little more reading and you'll see that these groups are not only "crazy, deluded Saudi Arabians". The Muslim Brotherhood exists right here in the United States. It's origins are Egyptian.
Please don't start name calling simply because one doesn't agree with your point of view. We need more open debate in this country on many of these issues and calling people names doesn't lend itself to that.

[Guest031411-2]

*sigh* no one is going to win this argument on the internet

[twanks]

To be honest MJ, I was not even referring to you specifically. I am calling people bigots that oppose this community center for no purpose other than the emotional response to the fact that it is a Muslim community centers. As I stated, this is little more than a YMCA.
The idea that we could ever be free from those that wish to do this county harm is laughable. What you should probably spend more time focusing you energy on is the large explosion of right wing Christian militias that have sprung up in this country within the last few years. These people are far more capable and likely to carry out acts of violence against this country and it's government (especially here in Texas). These groups have the exact same views as as the extremist groups that you pointed at except their form of spiked Kool-aid is Christianity.

Let's debate and analyze your stated opposition to this center.
1. Worry over the "non-violent Jihad".
This is essentially spreading Islam and converting as many souls to submit to Allah. Can you honestly tell me this is any different than the thousands of missionaries Christian organizations send across the globe to spread their religion. This zeal to convert can and has turned just as violent as some of the violent Jihad that we have seen. If their stated purpose is non violent, we must give them the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise.

I fear the ability of the Crazy Christian Right taking over this country more than Islam. We live in a state were 1/3 of the population is dumb enough to believe humans coexisted with dinosaurs. Sarah Palin, a person that believes the Earth is only 6000 years old and that witches are real, could have been a heart beat away from being President.
2. The Imam's refusal to denounce Hamas.
Hamas is a democratically elected political organization that faced the same troubles as the IRA with their violent wing and their political wing (Sin Fein). Here you had a group with people that a similar goals but differing views of how to accomplish this. The Imam obviously understood the political tightrope that must be walked when it comes to issues of Hamas in the Muslim world. We must be willing to except that a man that was once employed by the US government to help build good will towards America in the Muslim world after 9/11, is not out to seek our destruction.
3. A peaceful overthrow of the US?
Honestly I don't even know what this would be. Do you mean by doing things like voting? How dare these people try and have a say in the way they live their lives and participate in public life (lots of sarcasm here, sorry).


As long as this country continues to have a iron clad wall separating church and state, I think we can all rest assured we will not fall under Sharia Law any time soon. Maybe that is how we can keep Christians from trying to dismantle the wall, scare them with Muslims

[mj2749]

Twanks, I appreciate your viewpoints. Though I have numerous rebuttals and differing views, I'm afraid that people too quickly loose interest in these types of debates in this forum and we're probably close to receiving a gentle "nudge" from the moderators to keep this on track.
I'll leave it at this. In this day and age, due vigilance is called for. That goes for any extremist group. The days of giving certain groups "the benefit of doubt" because we don't want to offend or seem as if we're discriminating, are over. The cost has simply proven to be too high. If certain people or groups want to be taken at face value then their actions should back up their words. Sorry to say, transparency is a need that must be met today in order to keep our Country safe. IMHO that transparency has not yet taken place with the Community Center/YMCA/Mosque in question in NYC.

[shazzan]

Twank,

Lets take your points one by one.

1) I agree that Islamic adherents with a desire to non-violently convert unbelievers is not really different from Christian missionary work in form, but in content it's a whole different story. Read the Koran. It essentially teaches Muslims to hate non-believers, not to take them as friend, and to hold non-believers as both morally and legally inferior. A non-Muslims testimony is worthless in an Islamic court because it is deemed untrustworthy. There are specific lines in the Koran that say a Muslim should be a law abiding citizen of their infidel host country, but the minute that the Muslim community is strong enough it should seize power and impose Islamic law. I could write dozens of paragraphs talking about really awful stuff in the Koran. This is not a matter of interpretation or translation. I think most American Muslims ignore the really harsh parts of Islamic theology, but a scary large portion of them do believe in this stuff. All religions are not the same, and they do not all teach the same values. There is no golden rule in Islam.

2) Hamas is a terrorist group that's political and Islamic wings are closely interrelated. They have killed hundreds of Israeli civilians in attacks specifically on the civilian population. They were not attacking military targets and killings civilians in the crossfire or by mistake. They were blowing up buses and pizza parlors. They have not pullled off a suicide bombing in years, but this is for tactical and not moral reasons. They are completely against any peace process and have murdered settlers in the West Bank in an attempt to wreck the current peace negotiations. They are a downright evil organization teaching an entire generation is Palestinian children to worship martyrdom and hate Jews. Just type in Hamas children show on Youtube; it's utterly sick. So what if they were elected, so were the Nazis. Don't tell me it's low to play the Nazi card. These guys are total religious fascists.

3) I do think the idea of Muslims taking over the US and imposing Islamic law is pretty absurd. They would have to make up a large majority of the population to destroy our constitution. We have at least a couple of hundred years before that could become remotely possible. But, if the Muslim population did magically become a majority in the US, I do think everything that makes the US a free and relatively just society would be stripped away. Places like Belgium and a few other EU countries will be a good test case for this idea. They will have majority Muslim populations in a few decades and we will see if Sharia starts getting imposed, or if they turn into almost ungovernable semi-failed states like Lebanon, where faith groups are constantly a few incidents away from civil war.

I agree, we are in way more danger of religious right Republican freakazoids imposing religion on the country than we will ever be from Muslims. Just look at the Texas School Board. If that isn't a tragic freak show I don't know what is. Too bad Governor Zoolander is almost assured of getting another term.

[mj2749]

You had me until that last paragraph Shazzan, lol.
"I agree, we are in way more danger of religious right Republican freakazoids imposing religion on the country than we will ever be from Muslims"
Granted, I think extremism in any shape or form is not in the best interest of our Country. However, I don't think the "religious right Republican freakazoids" want to kill you or your fellow country men. You may not like their politics, you may not agree with their agenda, but you and your family I doubt have anything to fear when it comes to your physical security and well being. As far as what they want our kids to learn in school, that's a whole 'nother thread!

[richcran]

Originally Posted by mj2749

You had me until that last paragraph Shazzan, lol.
"I agree, we are in way more danger of religious right Republican freakazoids imposing religion on the country than we will ever be from Muslims"
Granted, I think extremism in any shape or form is not in the best interest of our Country. However, I don't think the "religious right Republican freakazoids" want to kill you or your fellow country men. You may not like their politics, you may not agree with their agenda, but you and your family I doubt have anything to fear when it comes to your physical security and well being. As far as what they want our kids to learn in school, that's a whole 'nother thread!

+1

[shazzan]

You had me until that last paragraph Shazzan, lol.
"I agree, we are in way more danger of religious right Republican freakazoids imposing religion on the country than we will ever be from Muslims"
Granted, I think extremism in any shape or form is not in the best interest of our Country. However, I don't think the "religious right Republican freakazoids" want to kill you or your fellow country men. You may not like their politics, you may not agree with their agenda, but you and your family I doubt have anything to fear when it comes to your physical security and well being. As far as what they want our kids to learn in school, that's a whole 'nother thread!

I did not say the religious right wants to impose sharia law and kill people. I said they want to impose religion on the country. You may think that's good or harmless, but I'm pretty happy with the separation of church and state in the US. There is a large fundamentalist Christian movement in this nation constantly trying to erode that wall of separation, and they are the only ones with the numbers to do so. We both will be long dead before the issue of sharia being imposed on the US becomes anything but a dark fantasy, as long as we don't allow mass immigration from Muslim nations. While I disagree with Twank on much, he makes a good point that Christian fundamentalists undermining that wall today will make it easier for Islamic fundamentalists in the future.

If you don't mind Jefferson being stripped from history class and intelligent design being taught in science courses, we will have to agree to disagree on this one. This is getting way off topic, but I don't like any religious group imposing their belief system on me. Yeah sharia is several orders of magnitud worse, but look at our little hobby. Prostitution is illegal for largely moral reason...Christian moral reasons. From prostitution to drug policy to don't ask don't tell, these are all pretty much influenced by the moral majority in state and federal government. Gays can't get married in Texas, not because logical dispassionate legislators determined it is the best policy decision, but because a bunch of guys want to get reelected and need the Bible thumper vote. I can't vote Republican anymore because I got so sick of the religious retardation in the party. When large parts of the party refuse to answer questions like, "Do you believe in evolution?', because they think saying 'Yes' will lose them the idiot vote, or they would have to say 'No' and reveal they or mentally challenged, then I think it's time to take my vote off the crazy train.

[theaustinescorts]

When I worked in Pakistan in the early 1980s supporting what is now the "Taliban" [i.e. Globadin Hekmatiar] my boss was the Chief of Station, Howard Hart. He recently spoke at the University of Virginia and outlined his reasons why the US should withdraw from Afghanistan immediately.

www2.dailyprogress.com/news.cdp-news-local/2009/nov/13/at_uva_military_strategy_in_af ghanistan_criticized-ar-94876/

If this very long link doesn't work then my apologies, but this article should be able to be found by googling Howard Hart CIA University of Virginia or UVa.

ps -
I doubt if anyone remembers this but in 1994 two or three of these nuts we trained showed up AT THE FRONT GATE OF CIA HEADQUARTERS IN LANGLEY with rifles and sprayed cars with rounds. I can't remember how many agency employees were killed.

That's gratitude for ya.