MSNBC's Sex Slave and Predator Marathon

[blowpop]

Originally Posted by DEAR_JOHN

I agree.

You state "through coercion", however the uneducated hick in me sees in another light. My thought is that these girls did not come here with the intent of fucking Americans to make ends meet. I would think that most came here with a different job in mind.

I'm not saying most are slaves, for many it's just a lack of options.

Exactly. They may not be chained up at night. But if the door is open, being in a foreign country without the ability to speak the language and without the proper paperwork to get a legitimate job means that she has no other way to earn a living. Exploitation can be more subtle than overt slavery, but it is still exploitation.

Thanks, but no thanks.

P.S. DJ, I've known you far to long to consider you anything other than an intelligent, thoughtful guy.

[surcher]

If you think I formed my opinion based on a TV show, you don't know me. While informative, to a point, of course there's sensationalism. However, these weren't based on generalizations, they were based on actual cases, especially the UK show. It was based solely on Operation Pentameter 2, a nationwide sex trafficking case that started with a brothel in Cheltenham. They arrested brothel managers and eventually the paper trail led and an eye witness led to money launderers, traffickers, buyers and sellers of young, Asian and European women. Most of the big players shown and busted were Asian women.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036750/#42802673

The girl and guy in the American clip make very good, non-sensational points.


I stand by what I said, "You know if you're getting a woman who can't speak English and only pay $140 an hour, or less, the odds are pretty good you're seeing someone who's not here of their own accord." If this offends you, perhaps I've struck a chord somewhere in you.

Originally Posted by blowpop

This is obviously a very hot topic. It's a very safe bet that the media sensationalizes things in these reports. It's also a safe bet that human trafficking does go on.

Each of us has to make his own choices where to draw the line.

For me personally, I decided years ago not to frequent AMPs or Latina agencies. The way I see it, a woman who doesn't speak English but who is here in Houston has far fewer employment options, and is quite possibly being kept here through coercion.

I think you made a logical, common sense decision.

Originally Posted by ness

You know this how? First hand experience? Or you awesome intution cause you watched the boob tube, fuckin msnbc no less?

Obviously, I have offended you. Do you frequent these establishments? Legal reasons will keep me from answering this completely, but let's say I knew someone who had first hand knowledge of AMP's and actually transported some AMP ladies to Houston. These ladies were brought here under the assumption they were coming for labor jobs in restaurants.



[/QUOTE]The same argument can be made of all providers, and anecdotal cases can be provided. That pretty much make you just as guilty as anybody else in the hobby if you accept shit like that. Really this is nothing more than a classic wedge issue. Here is how the arguments go:

Providers have inherently low self esteem, and are easily manipulated by a SO or such. So many are not providing purely cause they want to but because they are being manipulated into doing so.

Next argument:

Many providers have substance abuse problems and are in it to feed their addiction and not because of their own free will.

So are these two arguments totally bunk? Fuck no. Are these arguments being used to smear providers that do not fall into these two categories? You bet your fuckin ass.

So surcher in this light do you consider yourself "just as sad and sick as the bastards pimping them out."?

For some damn reason the concept of a convenient idiot keeps coming to mind. Cutting off your nose to spite your face also comes to mind.

I gotta ask why is it OK to slight imported Asian and Latinas with nothing more than a blanket statement but no specific evidence, but if you did the same with domestic talent you would be strung up by your balls? The only word I can come up with is xenophobia.[/QUOTE]

There are different reasons why some enter the profession. Coercion or trafficking of any form, be it from an SO, local pimp or international trafficker, has no difference in my mind. I have not seen anyone like this, since I've only seen independent ladies.

Low self-esteem or drug addiction have nothing to do with anything I stated and aren't even in the ball park. No, they aren't being used by me to smear anyone. That wasn't used in the MSNBC shows either. Has it been sensationalized by shows like HBO's "Hookers On The Point? Yes.

I didn't slight the Asian and Latin ladies at all. My sole point was toward the people who traffic them and those with the intelligence to know it's being done and see them anyway.

If all you can come up with is xenophobia, logic may not be your strong suit. The evidence is there if you choose see it. It's a multi-billion dollar world wide business that can't be ignored, except by those who keep it in business.

[bistraight69]

Inside the global sex trade: http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/sex-slaves/

[BDSaint]

Originally Posted by blowpop

For me personally, I decided years ago not to frequent AMPs or Latina agencies. The way I see it, a woman who doesn't speak English but who is here in Houston has far fewer employment options, and is quite possibly being kept here through coercion.

I agree with that to some degree that it does happen yes, yet at the same time- I have known and known of girls that have come from south of the border and have actually gone to work from agencies/cantinas on their own - not because of coersion...

it is unfortunate that this type of business happens...sex trafficking,

yet if there were no demand- then the supply would dry up.

[hartboyz20]

Okay, in the sex trade yes, the coersion is there and a very bad thing. But I agree with BDSaint, on a lot of latina's come up on their own and go to work in the agency wher there can make 1 to3 thousand in a week versus minimum wage, especially if not educated and english speaking enough for a good salary.

[blowpop]

Originally Posted by BDSaint

I agree with that to some degree that it does happen yes, yet at the same time- I have known and known of girls that have come from south of the border and have actually gone to work from agencies/cantinas on their own - not because of coersion...

I have no doubt that many Latinas work in This Thing of Ours voluntarily, and that many managers of Latina agencies don't coerce their workers.

The problem for me is that I can't tell who falls into this category. Thus my decision to avoid this part of the hobby. We each have to determine where we're comfortable drawing the line.

[DEAR_JOHN]

Originally Posted by blowpop

I have no doubt that many Latinas work in This Thing of Ours voluntarily, and that many managers of Latina agencies don't coerce their workers.

The problem for me is that I can't tell who falls into this category. Thus my decision to avoid this part of the hobby. We each have to determine where we're comfortable drawing the line.

Blowpop and I have never talked about this man to man, yet we have the very same opinion on this matter.

This is one reason I saw Wildcat Maria many times. She was an actual nympho and I never felt that she was doing this for any other reason than money and she just got off on sex.

I saw a few of the owners of these latin agencies in action, one was pretty rough on his girls, and I never went back, after seeing him in action, and another was actually 'the nicest man on the planet', and even though he was a big guy, I never saw anything that would lead me to believe he always wanted the best for his girls. I saw one as a semi-pimp and another who scheduled and protected his girls, if needed.

A poster in this thread mentioned the girls would get the money from somebody, and I agree. However it doesn't have to be my money to support them.

At the end of the day, I would rather pay 200 for an indy who would guarantee me a great GFE session with DFK and multi shots, than pay 80 for a non GFE session with a lady who really didn't want to be there, no matter how young and hot she is and with a very limited menu.

[surcher]

Originally Posted by Guilty Pleasures

I think MSNBC is trying to continue the stereotyping and stigmatization of the women and their clients in the industry.

Had you seen the shows I saw you would not have said this. Check out the clips and you'll see quite the opposite from the main commentators.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036750/#42802673

Originally Posted by Guilty Pleasures

The media and law enforcement often times distorts numbers and facts with regard to this issue. More times than not the media places a biased / slanted report on prostitution, and the "sheeple" believe anything they see on TV.

No doubt this is true. Look at our very own xmas party bust of the website that caters to "high class hooker." On occasion they do a good job of actually reporting, albeit no where near enough.


Quote “… ask any member of the public what proportion of this issue is sex-trafficking, and the usual response is about 80%. To the contrary, the International Labor Organization has recently stated that for every one person forced into the sex trade, nine people around the world are forced to work.
[/QUOTE]

I doubt GQ public would say the proportion of those involved in prostitution are related to sex trafficking is 80%. Most prime time shows like 60 Minutes, 20/20, which is where the majority of the public have seen the programs on prostitution, have focused more on the drug addicts and runaway teen types who've gotten into the biz, or coerced into it. Shows on MSNBC and PBS's Frontline don't even get the viewer-ship HBO's "Hookers On The Point" gets, which shows mostly those who got into it because of addiction, or got addicted because of the demons of the business. Our nightly news is just as slanted. Look at what they did with xmas party and what they did to Pam. They had an assault team break in her house with a warrant, then put her kid and a few porn tapes front and center to offset the fact they got nothing but a single mom who was a working girl. When's the last time they talked about trafficking? The last time they busted an AMP.

[dearhunter]

Originally Posted by blowpop

This is obviously a very hot topic. It's a very safe bet that the media sensationalizes things in these reports. It's also a safe bet that human trafficking does go on.

Each of us has to make his own choices where to draw the line.

For me personally, I decided years ago not to frequent AMPs or Latina agencies. The way I see it, a woman who doesn't speak English but who is here in Houston has far fewer employment options, and is quite possibly being kept here through coercion.

I spend the vast majority of my Hobby dollars with independents. I'd rather not fund anyone who "manages" providers, because I have no way of knowing whether or not an individual manager is ethical or not. I have no patience for those who exploit women.

Yep

[ness]

Fair enough here is what I wrote late last week after I cooled down, it's long so:

Here is why I responded to Simpelton with an Ad Hominem. First off he misrepresented what I said both by omission and giving me ownership of an argument I presented for the express purpose to argue against. Two logical fallacies were also used in that little paragraph. Begging the question, slavery is rampant with foreign born providers. No evidence is given by him at all, it is just a presumption. And what was the purpose of these misrepresentations and manipulations, to create a Straw Man that I support slavery. This is very offensive to me, and in my opinion responding with an Ad Hominem is mild in comparison.


Begging the question is so common when this subject comes up, and it is presented as both as a presumption that slavery is common place amongst foreign born providers and that guys that see foreign born providers support slavery. I think that is abhorrent and incredibly offensive. How many women are you degrading by presuming that they don't have the fortitude to choose for themselves or stand up for themselves? How many people are you pigeon holing as thugs that threaten, cajole, and force women into prostitution? How many guys here in this community are you accusing of supporting slavery either outright or by inference. And for what reason, basically because you said so.


Now a few do try to justify their accusations, some by anecdotal evidence, others by numbers that they present as statics or just facts.


Do I really have to explain why anecdotal evidence is unreliable? If you don't know look it up on Wikipedia. And just remember anecdotal evidence can be used to slander every single one of us, as I've already illustrated.


Then we come to the 27 million slaves argument. I've never seen a single person that mentions this number even give the source and it's usually presented as a fact and not a statistic. I can tell you it is neither a face nor a statistic. I know the source is Kevin Bales book “Free the Slaves”. MSNBC regurgitates this number from time to time and it is then regurgitated here as a result. From what I can tell Kevin Bales has a significant finical stake in this subject. He wrote 10 books on the subject IIRC and he founded a non-profit organization which of course he is the CEO of. He also has a clear philosophical reason for his opinions too. Modern day slavery is caused by capitalism / globalism. Further in his opinion the only way to end slavery is to institute massive world wide wealth redistribution. That's his philosophical end game.


Ok now to the statistical value of the 27 million number. The first thing I looked into was are their other sociologist or organizations presenting they same type of statistics, and the answer is yes. I found approximately 8 IIRC that I looked into. Guess which source had the largest number? If you said Kevin Bales you win a cookie. Then I looked at the lowest number which was 4 million people over a 5 year period, so that averages to 800,000 annually. That means the extreme spread of this question is 26.2 million people with a max of 27 million. That news sources and people choose the largest number when they present this as a valid statistic shows obvious and willful bias. Clearly if you are serious about presenting this number as a statistic you would disregard the extremes outside the mean as statistically invalid.


Now to methodology. Every on of the methodology statements that I reviewed started of with the excuse that slavery is illegal so it is underground and therefore can not be measure so instead we did X Y Z. That's right they don't even pretend to actually measure what they are presenting as a valid statistical data. One of the more asinine methods used was to guesstimate the total number of people
world wide that travel over national boarders and work either illegally or without proper licensing. That becomes their base number to work with and it is manipulated mathematically to somehow correspond to the lack of freewill of the base number of people. There is no factual measurement involved what so ever. That is how modern day slavery is measured. And in the case of books that present this type of statical data they way they bolster this crap is with anecdotal examples.


I find it very telling that many people here decried the statistical manipulations that were leveled at domestic online advertising of providers. If you didn't notice some people did an incredibly flawed study which lead to the conclusion that online advertising of prostitution encouraged and lead to underage prostitution. MSNBC and Fox New picked up this story and it pretty much sunk the Craigslist adds. Why are statistics that are aimed at the domestic talent to be given scrutiny but not the statistics that are aimed at foreign talent?


The last thing I looked into was the number of convictions for human trafficking here in the US. It was less than 200 federal prosecutions over a 10 year period of time (IIRC it was in the 180s). Lets just round that up to 200, that's 20 prosecutions per year. On the state level California had the most prosecutions followed by Wisconsin. When you total up all 50 states there was less prosecutions over the same period than the feds had. Let's just assume it was an equal number, that's a total of 40 prosecutions annually over a 10 year period. Of course actual facts are explained away cause human trafficking is an under reported crime.


On a personal level I really only have experience in the full service AMPs, both here and in Dallas (a buddy of mine started dragging me to Dallas spas sometime around 2001ish), and I'm just one person, but I have never seen anything that gave me pause or made me think any girl was there against their will. I just don't see it and I pay attention. Back when I first started going to H-town spas I've saw a few inferences about the AMPs being full of slaves on my lurker account. I though about my experiences in Dallas and Houston and nothing made me suspicious in retrospect. I started asking questions about where the girls are from, where do you live and where do you stay, and I got some really interesting answers. Most live in the US, typically in LA or NYC, but San Fran, San Diego and Dallas come up from time to time. A smaller number have relocated here. When they have time off they usually stay in an apartment that the Spa provides. Most work for a period of time and then take time off or sometimes they work in other cities. A few work for an extended period of time but take off as needed. A couple of girls have told me that they do not want to spa hop so they only work in one place. I've also seen girls jump from one local spa to another both with different ownership. I could go on but really I just don't see any evidence that these girls are slaves to the hobby.

[simpleton]

Originally Posted by ness

Here is how the arguments go:

Providers have inherently low self esteem, and are easily manipulated by a SO or such. So many are not providing purely cause they want to but because they are being manipulated into doing so.

Next argument:

Many providers have substance abuse problems and are in it to feed their addiction and not because of their own free will.

.So are these two arguments totally bunk? Fuck no Are these arguments being used to smear providers that do not fall into these two categories? You bet your fuckin ass.
.

A drug addicted girl who sells her pussy so she can buy drugs is not forced to sell her pussy. Either you chose a very bad comparison or you consider a crack whore the samething.

YOU SAID,"
.So are these two arguments totally bunk? Fuck no Are these arguments being used to smear providers that do not fall into these two categories? You bet your fuckin ass."
I wasn't talking about the chicks that don't fall into those two categories. I was referring to the ones that do.

[ness]

Those are not my arguments, they are examples of how anecdotal evidence can and is used to slander other parts of the hobby. Addiction and free will could be an interesting topic but i don't think I'll have that discussion with you. You of course have given zero evidence of any slavery, you just presume it. No evidence what so ever, period.

[AlluringExotic]

I remember walking into an AMP with a guy friend out of curiosity. Ever seen Rush Hour 2?

As far as the one I visited, I seriously doubt that the girls are there because of a transient force that is standing outside the AMP ready to go ape shit if they dare step a little toe outside the front door. The only force that keeps the girls who are incapable of leaving are the customers who keep going in.

Whether it was for legality, or for the lack of English Language, a couple of girls did not verbally say anything when a sexual favor was verbally communicated from a customer. Sometimes the price is the only English that they know. Go Figure.

Prostitution in general is the easiest, simplest, and oldest profession. It is easy to sell your body for the sake of a dollar bill when you have factors and limited resources such as language, transportation, education, crooked managers (I.E. Pimps) and drug addictions. Is it because these girls have no alternatives, or are they actually slaves to money rather than slaves to sex?

The fear of not making a dollar bill has to be exceptionally more than the fear of returning to a country with limited opportunity. What would you do in this situation?

Interesting Thread.

[blowpop]

Originally Posted by ness

Now a few do try to justify their accusations, some by anecdotal evidence, others by numbers that they present as statics or just facts.

Do I really have to explain why anecdotal evidence is unreliable? If you don't know look it up on Wikipedia. And just remember anecdotal evidence can be used to slander every single one of us, as I've already illustrated.

Then we come to the 27 million slaves argument. I've never seen a single person that mentions this number even give the source and it's usually presented as a fact and not a statistic.

I have to chuckle when someone dismisses anecdotal evidence, then presents it in the next paragraph. I stopped reading after that.

[simpleton]

Originally Posted by AlexaTheAmazon

Whether it was for legality, or for the lack of English Language, a couple of girls did not verbally say anything when a sexual favor was verbally communicated from a customer. Sometimes the price is the only English that they know. Go Figure.

Was all this verbal communication between a customer and the chick going on in the lobby where you and your friend were present? That could explain why they didn't say anything.