Hall of Fame today???

[Jusanotherdude]

Originally Posted by HoustonMatt

What will be interesting is Clemens and Bonds. Will they ever get in? Doesn't look like Sosa has any chance.

Bonds and Clemens will get in at some point..... Sosa most likely too... but much later then the first two..... Clemens and Bonds were surly and "meanies " to reporters, so this is the BBWA chance to get back at them.... they get to use PED suspicion to help strengthen their agenda.... Sosa was Very accomodating to the media but was an awful teamate and shit in the clubhouse. So that will help him out in the long run because he was nice during his playing years.

Palmero is the interesting one to me. Even without his banned substance suspension he was an interesting case. He was never dominant at his position in his era. But he stayed around long enough to be one of only 4 people with 3000 hits and 500 hrs. Rock solid but never even the most feared hitter on his own teams. Add on top of that him looking like a college clown for his "Never taken steroids. PERIOD!" Then getting popped a month later

But ultimately it's a dangerous slope trying to be judge jury and executioner over an entire era. Either set aside an explanation of the era end the skewed numbers and let all statistically worthy in, Or punish them all or let none in. Even the ones you "almost certain" would never, could never..... otherwise it's completely and utterly hypocritical.

[wanker]

Originally Posted by Jusanotherdude

But ultimately it's a dangerous slope trying to be judge jury and executioner over an entire era. Either set aside an explanation of the era end the skewed numbers and let all statistically worthy in, Or punish them all or let none in. Even the ones you "almost certain" would never, could never..... otherwise it's completely and utterly hypocritical.

Good point and I think this is basically what it comes down to. I say punish the whole era and anyone who is strongly suspected of using ped's. If you don't then I think it sends the wrong message. And yes that includes Bagwell too. I love the guy but I don't doubt he was juicing there for at least a few years.

[bbkid]

Originally Posted by Jusanotherdude

Bonds and Clemens will get in at some point..... Sosa most likely too... but much later then the first two.....

But ultimately it's a dangerous slope trying to be judge jury and executioner over an entire era. Either set aside an explanation of the era end the skewed numbers and let all statistically worthy in, Or punish them all or let none in. Even the ones you "almost certain" would never, could never..... otherwise it's completely and utterly hypocritical.

They were ALL either (a) jucing, (b) knew who was, and/or (c) looked the other way. The whole era is tainted and, as always, greed got to ride shotgun.

A slippery slope, indeed, Jad. The game (MY game) is tarnished beyond comprehension. And sadly, will never ever be the same.

[tyboy1]

Babe Ruth, hotdogs, beer and women. I long for the good old days.

[oilfieldscum]

Originally Posted by Jusanotherdude

Bonds and Clemens will get in at some point..... Sosa most likely too...

I sure hope fucking not. They say a picture is worth a thousand words...


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Nah he wasn't using.

Not only should those guys never get to the hall of fame they should have their statistics removed from the record books.

[macksback]

Originally Posted by oilfieldscum

I sure hope fucking not. They say a picture is worth a thousand words...


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Nah he wasn't using.

Not only should those guys never get to the hall of fame they should have their statistics removed from the record books.

That's ridiculous. That would be like me fucking your old lady with viagra and then saying I used viagra (ie a performance enhancing drug) so it didnt "really" happen. Those guys hit those home runs period. Something that has happenend is done. You cant go back and change it like it never happened.

Did the Nintny lions win all those games with a child molester on the sidelines? They sure as hell did. Did Lance Armstrong win the queer tour de france (which I did not captilize cause france sucks )...Yes he did and you know what? during those events he never busted a drug test....I am sorry but Bonds, Sosa, Mcguire should all be in the hall without any ridiculous hyphens next to there names.

ps Biggio should be in there too.

[Jusanotherdude]

C'mon now.... you can't possibly be that myopic..... there are SCORES of athletes who slimmed down after they retired.... weight training during career, cardio and healthier slimmer lifestyle after ..... they either get fat, Or they get slim..... Clemens got fat.... that mean he wasn't on the sauce?

Baseball players haven't Always been weight trainers... basketball player either... but they all do now..... which means bodies change after they retire.

[HoustonMatt]

I think Cooperstown is an entirely different institution. Election to the Hall is not just numbers alone, but how well you treat the fans/journalists and of course integrity and respect for the game.

As others have mentioned, all of the players in this era are guilty one way or the other. I recently finished reading "Bases Loaded" by Kurt Radmonski, the weight trainer who provided steroids and HGH to hundreds of major leaguers including Brian McNamee who worked with Clemens. In his book, he could never confirm the stuff he was sending to teammates/agents/trainers were for high profile players like Clemens, Tejada, Piazza, Justice, etc but he strongly implicated those 4 just off the top of my head in his book.

If it was just numbers alone, Pete Rose would be in the Hall (obviously). If the Hall is that stubborn to leave out the guy with most hits ever in MLB, who's to say they won't leave out the the leading homerun hitter (Bonds) and the only seven time Cy-Young winner (Clemens). Sosa's total of 12% is so low, I don't think he'll sever make it in. McGwire's and Palmeiro's numbers both dropped this year.

Next year, with Biggio likely getting in, and first-time eligible Maddux, Glavine, maybe Frank Thomas...... and possibly getting in Bagwell, Piazza, and Morris...... it's not looking good for guys near the bottom. The Baseball Writers of America are a different group of guys. Some have written articles in their support for Clemens and Bonds getting in, but other writers will never vote for them because the "cheaters" violated the main election criteria:

“Voting shall be based upon the player’s record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.”

Definitely a sticky debate, but a good one. All of baseball is to be ashamed of the PED era. Every team knew their players were using PEDs, the commissioner knew and certainly the Player's Union knew and wanted to make it more difficult for players to get testing. Is it the fault of the players of this era?

Just because the players never tested positive doesn't mean they were innocent. Somebody mentioned Lance. Is there any doubt he cheated now? There was an article last week saying that Lance was thinking about admitting he doped. Thinking about it? Either he doped or he didn't. Just like in baseball, if all the players are using PEDs, than you almost have to as well if you want to sign that big contract and stay on top. If all the cyclists around you are doping, is Lance really super-human that he can beat a room full of professional cyclists using PEDs. I think not.....

[oilfieldscum]

Originally Posted by macksback

That's ridiculous. That would be like me fucking your old lady with viagra and then saying I used viagra (ie a performance enhancing drug) so it didnt "really" happen. Those guys hit those home runs period. Something that has happenend is done. You cant go back and change it like it never happened.

Did the Nintny lions win all those games with a child molester on the sidelines? They sure as hell did. Did Lance Armstrong win the queer tour de france (which I did not captilize cause france sucks )...Yes he did and you know what? during those events he never busted a drug test....I am sorry but Bonds, Sosa, Mcguire should all be in the hall without any ridiculous hyphens next to there names.

ps Biggio should be in there too.

I'm glad you metioned that guy. They srtripped that cheating prick of all of his titles.

[Jusanotherdude]

Pete Rose is a different and completely separate issue. He will get in after he dies. One thing baseball is EXTREMELY adamant about is gambling. In each ands every clubhouse you walk in from the minor leagues down will have multiple signs big and plan as day "No Gambling" and each orientation class before you start a day in minor leagues/rookie ball starts and ends with gambling. It is the one nuclear topic baseball has and Pete pissed on it because he Thought he was bigger than the game. Pissed off Giamatti and Vincent so badly that Selig (out of respect) has vowed to never let him back in baseball while he is commissioner. Can't get into the hall while you're banned from baseball.

[Guest082824]

People still watch baseball......




















Just messing with ya bbkid

[bbkid]

Originally Posted by HoustonMatt

If the Hall is that stubborn to leave out the guy with most hits ever in MLB.....

Matt, the "Hall" doesn't let in or forbid you. The writers do.
I agree with jad - Rose will get into the Hall after he dies. He gambled on the game, and it cost him. No doubt he was the best hitter of all time, but he was guilty of the most hated thing in this game.

Originally Posted by DickEmDown

People still watch baseball......
Just messing with ya bbkid

lol - you KNOW that I do, ded. You dog.

[HoustonMatt]

Originally Posted by bbkid

Matt, the "Hall" doesn't let in or forbid you. The writers do.

I'm well aware of that..... I think we all know what I meant to say. The Hall doesn't include Pete Rose, one way or the other. True, different circumstances, but my point was that if the player with the most hits isn't in the Hall, than I don't think they'd be crying if the player with the most HR's isn't in it either.

The writers aren't allowed to write in names on their ballots. Until Pete Rose is off the ineligible list, he won't get in. I'm not so sure if he'll get in after he dies. If that was the case, Why isn't Shoeless Joe in the Hall?

[notanewbie]

Dale Murphy needs to be in the hall.

[pyramider]

Bagwell really does not belong in the Hall. He juiced, look how his body changed and then completely broke down. Caminiti should get in before Bagwell. Piazza in the Hall ... fuck no ... he could hit but be a defensive catcher he was a liability.