Reply to Blackman, so we don't hijack WD's thread

[nevergaveitathought]

Originally Posted by Tiny

Yes nevergaveitathought, Blackman is a tough nut to crack. From his post above he believes Republicans are stupid and more inclined to violate election laws and pass unfair election laws than Democrats. However I believe this can all be overcome with logic and love. I may not have time this evening, but I shall endeavor to rebut him, point by point. Well at least as to the points that support my case. And if that doesn’t work, do you remember the old saying, “If you love something, set it free, and if it doesn’t come back, hunt it down and kill it.”

P.S. That last part’s a joke. Blackman’s one of our best left of center contributors and I wish him a happy and long life. (This is where I’m working on the love part in “logic and love”)

your "logic and love", well that will make 'em even angrier then a lefty normally is

your "logic and love" is similar to what i have always heard, which is, "speaking the truth in love" , say that and they lose it

its like telling someone you forgive them, now that makes 'em mad as hell. "forgive me? i was going to forgive you , you dirty so and so!"

[royamcr]

Originally Posted by Tiny

Hey, There are definitely cases of election law violation. Sixty three instances in 2022 are documented here,

https://www.heritage.org/voterfraud-print/search

Would any of them have resulted in a change in the outcome of an election? My wild guess is no, although I haven't read through the list.

George Parr and Richard Daley were masters at stealing elections for Democrats. But are Democrats stealing elections in this day and age? I suspect not, or at least not very many.

However, that doesn't change the fact that 30% of Americans believe Biden stole the election. That's down from 40% a couple of years ago. The posters in this forum who believe Biden lost also sincerely believe that requiring photo ID and restricting mail in ballots are necessary to protect the integrity of the vote. In those states where their elected representatives believe likewise, what's wrong with giving them what they want?

Those measures would undoubtedly reduce voter fraud, from a low level to an even lower level. The idea those and similar measures would disadvantage Democrats is plain stupid, as you clearly set out in your earlier post. Democrats today are more motivated to go out and vote than Republicans. You tie the fiction, which apparently you've bought into, that Republicans have passed laws to reduce Democratic turnout, to the truth that Trump tried to steal an election, and you've got truly fired up Democrats, who are going to vote.

This is a little analogous to an issue eccieuser and I have been back and forth on, the BLM protests. Eccieuser rightly maintains that cops needlessly killing blacks (and whites and Hispanics and Asians) is horrendous. I agree but don't believe it's nearly as big of a problem as he does. If you want to just look at "black lives", then I'd contrast the number of deaths per year at the hands of cops, maybe 300 total, to 400,000 black men who are in jail, many unjustly. Then there are tens of thousands of premature deaths, maybe over 100,000, annually resulting from worse health care outcomes for blacks vs. whites in America.

Still, I believe it makes sense to try to reduce the number of killings by police. Yeah, perhaps money spent by communities on body cams and the like could be better spent elsewhere. And yes, perhaps police morale suffers. But when you've got a large part of America that's mad as hell about an issue, it makes sense to do something about it.

Same with election fraud. You had two or three thousand storm the capital and you have people out there ready to take up arms to defend America from the conniving Democrats who are trying to steal elections. What's the harm in, say, requiring photo ID and eliminating mail in ballots (except for those who legitimately can't go to the polls) if it's needed to placate 30% of America? Actually I read somewhere that 80% of Americans favor voter ID.

I already see what's coming from you next, that police actually have unjustly killed people, but there aren't stolen elections in recent times that people can point to. Well, maybe so. But there aren't that many George Floyd's out there in recent times either, in the grand scheme of things.

2020 was different than other elections since so many used mail in due to Covid. Generally mail in ballots would seldom swing an election so on election day they aren't even tallied. Unless the race is really close, like more mail in ballots outstanding vs the margin between the candidates. Eventually in other elections mail ins are tallied up, but after the election....

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by royamcr

2020 was different than other elections since so many used mail in due to Covid. Generally mail in ballots would seldom swing an election so on election day they aren't even tallied. Unless the race is really close, like more mail in ballots outstanding vs the margin between the candidates. Eventually in other elections mail ins are tallied up, but after the election....

Very true. Ironically, as I believe Blackman pointed out in WD's thread, the mail in ballots hurt Trump and down ballot Republicans because he told his supporters not to vote by mail! That was incredibly stupid.

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by 1blackman1

There’s a lot to unpack here so I’ll try to concisely address what you’ve wrote.

Republicans believe the lie they have been told. So you can’t go back and say that because they believe the lie there must be some truth to it. That extremely illogical. Think about what you’re saying. Republicans as a talking point say “election fraud”. Their supporters believe that it’s a real issue because they are being told that. So now it has to be fixed because the lie took hold. That’s asinine at best and stupid at worse. The overall proof that it’s stupid is you site Heritage as the source that in 2022 63 instances of voter fraud existed. Millions of votes cast, 63 instances of fraud. Let’s think about that and take out the hyperbole. That’s not a problem that’s fixed by changing and shortening early votes or removing weekend or late night voting. Surely that’s not solved by reducing mail in voting or requiring IDs. Making all those changes have nothing at all to with stopping the very few actual instances of voter fraud.

It’s a silly position to take that things like stopping people from providing water to folks in line to vote is intended to prevent fraud. Or having late night hours somehow prevents fraud. Or purging voter registration rolls. Or shortening early voting period and not having Sunday voting prevents fraud. You’re smarter than what you wrote so I’ll leave you to ponder the real question, what’s it designed to effect?

I personally have no issue with ID requirements but with 63 out of millions of votes being the problem, it’s likely just an unnecessary artificial hurdle. But overall I believe simple is better. Any reasonable ID should be allowed. Why eliminate student IDs issued by colleges but allow hunting licenses? If you can’t see the difference on the surface of who that constituency might adversely affect, well, I don’t know what to tell ya but willful blindness comes to mind. That isn’t the only instance but if you take a second to look at accepted IDs vs not accepted forms of ID it might be enlightening.

Maybe if republicans quit spreading unfounded and unsupportable lies to their constituents, including through Fox News the RNC and formerly Trump propaganda arm, they be less likely to believe lies. Why does a large number of republicans believe the elections are rigged. Because they are being fed the lie and we know republicans generally aren’t the sharpest tools in shed. Shit, look at republican elected officials in congress Boebert Green Gosar Gohmer, all profound idiots. And that’s just off the top of my head. The republican constituency gets flood with falsehoods and since they only hear what they want to hear from the echo chamber (Fox Newsmax Breitbart etc) the falsehoods are reinforced as truth and facts. What did that lead to “election fraud” “election stolen”.

Your assertion that because people believe a falsehood repeated ad infinitum by people they believe that laws should be passed to assuage their fears is crazy. How about stop telling the lie. Put the real facts out there and tell the truth. Election fraud doesn’t exist in any amounts that require changes in the voting laws. The elections were stolen. There were no dumps of votes in boxes under tables and voting machines weren’t hacked. That’s where republicans can start and stop with all the attempts to limit the vote.

Interestingly you should read the 63 instances from 2022 (they they actually cover a longer period of time. Most are republicans (not surprisingly). I only found two that would be maybe stopped by some of the measures sought to prevent fraud. The instances of felons voting - NOPE, someone trying to affect their own local election - NOPE. Now there were some republicans that voted for their dead parents and spouses. could that be stopped. I suppose but guess what, that subset of the 60 is even smaller. All the other instances were people setting out to effect some small local election through fraud. None of which would have been prevented by making voting more difficult.

Republicans should apply the same logic to voting that they do to gun laws. Why make changes to the laws when there are laws on the books. And the instances that do occur can’t be stopped with more laws anyway so why create more restrictions for the honest voters.

Good post counselor. It didn't change my mind, but good post. I'd use a different "guns" analogy. You historically have had a large number of American citizens who were willing to go to war with the government if it attempted to confiscate their firearms. There are some Republicans who feel the same about election fraud. If you can assuage their fears in ways that don't disadvantage Democrats, and that actually decrease the costs of holding elections (e.g. shortened election hours and days) then what's the problem?

You're the lawyer, not me, but there must be a hell of a lot of laws out there that not only address non-issues, but also fuck people over. Laws against possession of a certain substance we're not allowed to discuss here are an example. And there are a ton more examples in the book Three Felonies A Day. So, OK, from that standpoint, I don't see the wisdom in a law that puts someone in prison because he's an ex-felon who voted. But otherwise if you can half assed placate one side in a very divided country without disadvantaging the other side, I don't see the harm, regardless of whether that sounds silly to lawyers.

There are actually 1227 criminal convictions in the Heritage database. The 63 in the table I linked to were 2022 CONVICTIONS, and yes, many of the crimes occurred in prior years.

Looking over the first 30 records in the table, I see two instances where fraud would have changed the outcome of an election if the perpetrator had gotten away with it, and both were Democrats (Kathy Funk and Isaac Galvan). I'd have to give the award for the most brazen violations to a couple of villains in your state, Tangipahoa parish, who were paying people $20 a piece for their votes.

And while I vehemently disagree with your assertion that Republicans are stupider and more prone to election fraud, I can see how you could get that impression from the table. There were too many cases of some yahoo voting for his great Aunt because he wanted Trump to win.

I really don't see how the measures that you and Eccieuser have brought up, like shortened election hours or election days, fewer drop boxes, eliminating mail in voting, or allowing voting with any old ID would disadvantage Democrats.

I'm not necessarily saying I agree with all those measures, just that they don't preferentially hurt Democrats.

A higher % of Democrats are unemployed (based on the 2016 Cooperative Election Study - https://cces.gov.harvard.edu/), and a higher % of the elderly are Republicans (https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...-and-religion/). Thus if your argument is that the workingman and workinglady and the elderly won't have an opportunity to vote with shortened hours or shortened days or without mail in ballots, it should disadvantage Republicans more.

As to voter ID, I made a fake university ID card when I was in high school, to buy beer and go to X-rated movies, and it worked. It absolutely makes sense to use standardized ID's that election workers can verify are real. I don't see how anyone can survive in this day and age without a drivers license or other state ID anyway. Looking at your state of Louisiana, I see it accepts "a driver's license; a Louisiana Special ID; LA Wallet digital driver's license; or some other generally recognized picture ID that contains your name and signature." And furthermore, "Voters who do not have accepted ID may vote by completing a voter identification affidavit." I imagine most states have similar requirements.

In any event, as you previously pointed out, if anything, the way the Republican and Democratic Parties have used these issues in their propaganda campaigns has had the effect of encouraging Democrats to vote while discouraging Republicans. If this is some kind of Republican conspiracy, it has backfired.

As to your contention that Republican voters and Congressmen are dumb asses who believe everything they see on Fox News, that works both ways. I could equally say the same thing about Democrats and MSNBC. AOC, Maxine Waters and Hank Johnson have said some things every bit as stupid as the Republican Congressmen and women on your list.

[1blackman1]

I think it’s silly to pass laws that further support a false belief because it light lesson the worries of people that are believing a falsehood. That’s nonsensical. Particularly when it’s actually to everyone benefit to stop telling the lie.

Under your thinking you concede that there isn’t proof of voter fraud. But because a section of people believe it to be the case we should pass laws they want that doesn’t fix a nonexistent problem so they will think the problem is solved. Further you want to pass measures that wouldn’t even solve the nonexistent problem even if passed. Let’s game this out. Assume the laws are passed and voting remains about the same with democrats winning. By having passed the laws those republic voters (who now are meant to believe they problem is solved) will then believe the laws haven’t gone far enough because the purported thousands and millions of fraudulent votes haven’t gone away. What’s the option then, more restrictive laws? Further attempts to eliminate fraud?

Now how about the more sensical approach, inform republicans the truth, voter fraud in any numbers that would be relevant is a fiction. The people that work elections are not trying to steal elections. The few instances of voter fraud that does exist are relatively limited and usually caught by the authorities.

Then everyone is on the same playing field. No one has a false belief structure. Everyone is motivated to get out and cast their vote on the actual issues the candidates will support rather than continuing to lie to themselves that more people agree with their view rather than the other way around. They also will stop believing their candidates are being cheated out of wins.

As for the measures you point out, none if any of them would prevent any real fraud. Let’s go with your Heritage numbers again, let’s even say they spread is even between republicans and democrats, the intentional acts od fraud were mainly people interfering in smaller local elections. None of the Republican measures would have ended that. And they got discovered and the laws on the books are punishing them.

To think that shortening voting periods and times or stopping mail voting should be passed as a consolation to republicans because they believe there’s some significant fraud out there, I just can’t get behind.

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by 1blackman1

Under your thinking you concede that there isn’t proof of voter fraud.... As for the measures you point out, none if any of them would prevent any real fraud. Let’s go with your Heritage numbers again, let’s even say they spread is even between republicans and democrats, the intentional acts od fraud were mainly people interfering in smaller local elections. None of the Republican measures would have ended that.

I don't believe that's correct. Looking again at the first 30 entries in the Heritage table, 14 of the cases involved voter ID and/or mail in voting. The perpetrators were Jason Schofield, Tracey Kay McKee, Guillermina Fuentes, Marcia Johnson, Alma Yadira Juarez, Krista Michelle Connor, Elizabeth Gale, Barry Morphew, John Mallozzi, Devin King, Jordan Daniels, William Chase, James Bartlett, and Troy Kemper. Tighter regulations for mail in voting and voter ID would, like I said, reduce voter fraud from a low level to an even lower level.

Originally Posted by 1blackman1

Now how about the more sensical approach, inform republicans the truth, voter fraud in any numbers that would be relevant is a fiction. The people that work elections are not trying to steal elections. The few instances of voter fraud that does exist are relatively limited and usually caught by the authorities.

Then everyone is on the same playing field. No one has a false belief structure. Everyone is motivated to get out and cast their vote on the actual issues the candidates will support rather than continuing to lie to themselves that more people agree with their view rather than the other way around. They also will stop believing their candidates are being cheated out of wins.

I agree with that, except your belief that instances of voter fraud are usually caught by the authorities. And I wish more Republicans agreed. Given the demographic changes that are occurring in America, most prominently the replacement of Baby Boomer voters by Millenials, the party needs to pivot on social issues if it's going to remain relevant. And as long as many Republicans believe they're a solid majority in America, there's going to be no impetus to do that.

Originally Posted by 1blackman1

To think that shortening voting periods and times or stopping mail voting should be passed as a consolation to republicans because they believe there’s some significant fraud out there, I just can’t get behind.

I believe in most instances changes like shortening voting periods are to save money or because county employees don't want to, say, keep polling sites open for a solid month including weekends before an election. I don't believe mail in voting should be stopped in states that choose to do that, like Colorado. And I do believe in absentee voting for people like servicemen who can't otherwise vote. However, if the elected representatives in a state choose to restrict mail in voting, I believe they should be able to do that. Any egregious restrictions on voting will be struck down by the courts.

[Salty Again]

Originally Posted by Tiny

Very true. Ironically, as I believe Blackman pointed out in WD's thread, the mail in ballots hurt Trump and down ballot Republicans because he told his supporters not to vote by mail! That was incredibly stupid.

... Some may believe it stupid - but Trump knows
mail in ballots are rife with fraud... And you
lads understand why... No accounte for the votes
in some areas... "Same day registration" also.
We'll count the votes NOW - every box of them
- even if they came in two weeks after the election.

.... So THAT is what you call "fair" - is it?
Good - because Republicans will be doing it also!

... Like it or not, liberals - America will soon
be on the road to Voter ID.

The very thing the Dems DON'T WANT.

#### Salty

[1blackman1]

Salty. You realize that everyone that voted had to proven their identity during the registration process. Along with verification of citizenship. That’s why the Republican position is so silly and foolhardy.

[1blackman1]

Tiny I think we just have to agree to disagree. I think your position is naive but my position will prevail over time.

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by Salty Again

... Some may believe it stupid - but Trump knows
mail in ballots are rife with fraud... And you
lads understand why... No accounte for the votes
in some areas... "Same day registration" also.
We'll count the votes NOW - every box of them
- even if they came in two weeks after the election.

.... So THAT is what you call "fair" - is it?
Good - because Republicans will be doing it also!

... Like it or not, liberals - America will soon
be on the road to Voter ID.

The very thing the Dems DON'T WANT.

#### Salty

Salty, While I don't believe fraud is as nearly as common in this day and age as you do, yeah, it happens, and yeah, it's A LOT easier with mail in ballots than if people cast their votes at the polls in person. Aside from that, I've had first class mail delivered months late and never delivered at all. I vote in person, like I'm sure you do.

However, when states mailed out ballots to all their registered voters, and Trump told people not to use them, Republicans got fucked. It's a lot easier putting a ballot in the mail than it is going to a polling site and waiting in line. In addition in 2020 you had some people, the elderly in particular, who are more likely to vote Republican, who were afraid to go to the polls because of COVID.

[lustylad]

Saying "you ain't black" if you don't vote for me is a crude, racist attempt at voter suppression.

And the suggestion that people of color are less capable than other US citizens of registering to vote and complying with simple voter ID requirements is not only incorrect... the entire premise is brazenly racist!


President Biden’s Slander at Selma

His rhetoric on voting rights continues to undermine democracy.

By The Editorial Board
March 6, 2023 6:45 pm ET


He seems to have abandoned “Jim Crow 2.0,” but that was the extent of the nuance in President Biden’s political remarks Sunday in Selma, Ala. He was there to commemorate the anniversary of “Bloody Sunday,” the 1965 brutality against a civil-rights march at the Edmund Pettus Bridge. Calling for the freedom to vote, marchers were met by clubs and tear gas.

“The right to vote and to have your vote counted is the threshold of democracy and liberty,” Mr. Biden said. “With it, anything is possible. Without it—without that right, nothing is possible. And this fundamental right remains under assault. The conservative Supreme Court has gutted the Voting Rights Act over the years. Since the 2020 election, a wave of states and dozens—dozens of anti-voting laws fueled by the Big Lie, and the election deniers now elected to office.”

Mr. Biden’s implied parallel here is grotesque, and it doesn’t fit the evidence. The 1965 Voting Rights Act (VRA) helped to break Jim Crow. For a generation, it required certain states and localities to get “preclearance” before changing their voting laws. That extraordinary measure was intended to last five years, but Congress eventually extended it to 2031, without updating the 1975 criteria to determine where the preclearance requirement would apply.

This is what the Supreme Court struck down in Shelby County (2013). The VRA’s coverage formula had “no logical relation to the present day,” as Chief Justice John Roberts wrote for the majority. “Data from the most recent election indicate that African-American voter turnout exceeded white voter turnout in five of the six States originally covered.”

A year after Shelby County, Vice President Biden warned of a “new assault” on the right to vote, saying that laws requiring a photo ID were “an attempt to repress minority voting.” Yet a 2021 academic study of voter ID could find “no negative effect on registration or turnout, overall or for any group defined by race, gender, age, or party affiliation.” As of last year, voter ID was “favored by 77% of people of color,” Gallup says.

Mr. Biden also consistently misrepresents the voting laws that states have passed since 2020. In a speech last year in Georgia, this is how the President framed the debate: “Do you want to be on the side of John Lewis or Bull Connor? Do you want to be on the side of Abraham Lincoln or Jefferson Davis?” Yet look at the University of Georgia’s recent survey on the 2022 elections. Asked about their voting experience, 72.6% of black Georgians called it excellent, and 0% said poor. Of white respondents, 72.7% said excellent and 0.9% said poor.

Mr. Biden castigates the “Big Lie,” as Democrats have branded President Trump’s claim that the 2020 election was stolen. Mr. Trump’s false theories are well worth criticizing, but so is Mr. Biden’s slandering of states like Georgia, not to mention his suggestion that America is an inch from reverting to 1965. It isn’t true, and his calumny undermines democracy.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/preside...ights-a89c5459

[nevergaveitathought]

Originally Posted by lustylad

this is how the President framed the debate: “Do you want to be on the side of John Lewis or Bull Connor? Do you want to be on the side of Abraham Lincoln or Jefferson Davis?”


[/url]

i liked your entire post as it directly addressed the lies and purposeful misstatements of the irrational biden

it makes me wonder about the people who vote for and listen to this
iniquitous panderer

do they reason at all? i think for the most part its a selfishness driven vote

but as to the part of the post that remains above

tho separated by a century, bull connor and jefferson davis...dimocrats, each

[Why_Yes_I_Do]

Anyone else ever wondered why nobody ever shows a list or even a single voter that would be dis-enfranchised from voting without a photo ID?

In regards to:
Reply to Blackman, so we don't hijack WD's thread: WD who?

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by lustylad

Yet look at the University of Georgia’s recent survey on the 2022 elections. Asked about their voting experience, 72.6% of black Georgians called it excellent, and 0% said poor. Of white respondents, 72.7% said excellent and 0.9% said poor.

Thanks. I read that a couple of days ago and was going to post it but never did.

About Georgia, the one item that Blackman brought up that's hard to argue with is the prohibition on passing water out in Georgia election lines. Well, based on the University of Georgia's survey, that doesn't appear to be an issue. And the law was defended by none other than Brad Raffensperger, the Secretary of State who stood up to Trump when he asked him to find 11,000 more votes.

https://katv.com/news/nation-world/n...s-at-the-polls

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by nevergaveitathought

it makes me wonder about the people who vote for and listen to this
iniquitous panderer

Originally Posted by Why_Yes_I_Do

Anyone else ever wondered why nobody ever shows a list or even a single voter that would be dis-enfranchised from voting without a photo ID?

Biden and other Democratic politicians know better. They just use imaginary voting rights issues to fire up the base and raise money.

Originally Posted by Why_Yes_I_Do

In regards to:
Reply to Blackman, so we don't hijack WD's thread: WD who?

May he RIP, until he rises from the dead in 3 months. Winn Dixie was like John the Baptist, bringing a message of fire and brimstone to Republicans who foolishly want Trump to run for president in 2024. I'm more like Jesus, trying to achieve the same effect with a message of love.