Confederate flag was the flag of traitors

[IIFFOFRDB]

Originally Posted by JohnnyCap

Me! Me! Me! Mr. Kotter! Me!

I'm not going to be active enough for some of you on this thread, but have at it. Light me up. I'm an educated northern white boy who grew up in a small town. I was probably a teen before I saw a black person in real life. Lots of bigots there. I don't condone that, or slavery, nor do I maintain the civil war and succession wasn't largely motivated by slavery.

However, I believe that our nation has lost something as our states have lost powers to the increasingly powerful federal government. I believe some of that loss of power relates to the confederacy and, as such, that flag has some symbolic worth not related to the beating of darker skinned humans.

Without wishing to shackle and torture a mulatto, I also find the flag attractive aesthetically.

Have your fun, I'll do my best to keep the corn poppin'.

It's just a scalawag starting trouble.

[Guest123018-4]

It is evident that the OP is ignorant of the Confederacy and the war for states rights.
He probably thinks it was a war over slavery.

[Guest032516]

Originally Posted by The2Dogs

It is evident that the OP is ignorant of the Confederacy and the war for states rights.
He probably thinks it was a war over slavery.

Of course it was.

The Confederate states wrote Declarations of Secession - similar to the Declaration of Independence - in which they stated their reasons for seceding. Yup, slavery was the reason why.

Here is South Carolina's. It's a good example:

http://www.civil-war.net/pages/south...eclaration.asp

Key quotes:
------------------------
"Thus was established, by compact between the States, a Government with definite objects and powers, limited to the express words of the grant. This limitation left the whole remaining mass of power subject to the clause reserving it to the States or to the people, and rendered unnecessary any specification of reserved rights.

We hold that the Government thus established is subject to the two great principles asserted in the Declaration of Independence; and we hold further, that the mode of its formation subjects it to a third fundamental principle, namely: the law of compact. We maintain that in every compact between two or more parties, the obligation is mutual; that the failure of one of the contracting parties to perform a material part of the agreement, entirely releases the obligation of the other; and that where no arbiter is provided, each party is remitted to his own judgment to determine the fact of failure, with all its consequences.

In the present case, that fact is established with certainty. We assert that fourteen of the States have deliberately refused, for years past, to fulfill their constitutional obligations, and we refer to their own Statutes for the proof.

The Constitution of the United States, in its fourth Article, provides as follows:

"No person held to service or labor in one State, under the laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in consequence of any law or regulation therein, be discharged from such service or labor, but shall be delivered up, on claim of the party to whom such service or labor may be due."

This stipulation was so material to the compact, that without it that compact would not have been made. The greater number of the contracting parties held slaves, and they had previously evinced their estimate of the value of such a stipulation by making it a condition in the Ordinance for the government of the territory ceded by Virginia, which now composes the States north of the Ohio River.

The same article of the Constitution stipulates also for rendition by the several States of fugitives from justice from the other States.

The General Government, as the common agent, passed laws to carry into effect these stipulations of the States. For many years these laws were executed. But an increasing hostility on the part of the non-slaveholding States to the institution of slavery, has led to a disregard of their obligations, and the laws of the General Government have ceased to effect the objects of the Constitution. The States of Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rhode Island, New York, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Wisconsin and Iowa, have enacted laws which either nullify the Acts of Congress or render useless any attempt to execute them. In many of these States the fugitive is discharged from service or labor claimed, and in none of them has the State Government complied with the stipulation made in the Constitution. The State of New Jersey, at an early day, passed a law in conformity with her constitutional obligation; but the current of anti-slavery feeling has led her more recently to enact laws which render inoperative the remedies provided by her own law and by the laws of Congress. In the State of New York even the right of transit for a slave has been denied by her tribunals; and the States of Ohio and Iowa have refused to surrender to justice fugitives charged with murder, and with inciting servile insurrection in the State of Virginia. Thus the constituted compact has been deliberately broken and disregarded by the non-slaveholding States, and the consequence follows that South Carolina is released from her obligation.

The ends for which the Constitution was framed are declared by itself to be "to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity."

These ends it endeavored to accomplish by a Federal Government, in which each State was recognized as an equal, and had separate control over its own institutions. The right of property in slaves was recognized by giving to free persons distinct political rights, by giving them the right to represent, and burthening them with direct taxes for three-fifths of their slaves; by authorizing the importation of slaves for twenty years; and by stipulating for the rendition of fugitives from labor.

We affirm that these ends for which this Government was instituted have been defeated, and the Government itself has been made destructive of them by the action of the non-slaveholding States. Those States have assume the right of deciding upon the propriety of our domestic institutions; and have denied the rights of property established in fifteen of the States and recognized by the Constitution; they have denounced as sinful the institution of slavery; they have permitted open establishment among them of societies, whose avowed object is to disturb the peace and to eloign the property of the citizens of other States. They have encouraged and assisted thousands of our slaves to leave their homes; and those who remain, have been incited by emissaries, books and pictures to servile insurrection.

For twenty-five years this agitation has been steadily increasing, until it has now secured to its aid the power of the common Government. Observing the forms of the Constitution, a sectional party has found within that Article establishing the Executive Department, the means of subverting the Constitution itself. A geographical line has been drawn across the Union, and all the States north of that line have united in the election of a man to the high office of President of the United States, whose opinions and purposes are hostile to slavery. He is to be entrusted with the administration of the common Government, because he has declared that that "Government cannot endure permanently half slave, half free," and that the public mind must rest in the belief that slavery is in the course of ultimate extinction."
------------------------
It is embarrassing to read.

Those are your foundational documents.

South Carolina was pissed off that northern states were lax in returning escaped slaves. Imagine that. Yankees weren't sufficiently enthusiastic about participating in evil.

South Carolina was also pissed that northern states did not crush freedom of the press and assembly because they permitted abolitionist societies to exist and preach against slavery. So much for the Southern concept of "freedom".

[rodog44]

Originally Posted by ExNYer

Your idiotic drivel above did get me thinking though.

Exactly WHAT would a country have to do to be MORE dishonorable than the Confederacy - a nation established for the express purpose of ensuring the existence of human slavery.

OK, I will agree that Nazi Germany was worse. It existed for the purpose of committing genocide.

But, after that, what is worse?

Not the Soviet Union or Red China. It might have sucked to live under a lousy economic system enforced by totalitarians, but that is far better than chattel slavery.

Perhaps knuckle-dragging Confederate sympathizers don't agree with that, but that is because slavery (for blacks) wouldn't affect them. but put yourself in the place of a black person. You are robbed of everything you have by the person who owns you. Your master can whip you, hang you, burn you, sell your wife, sell your children, and even kill you with no repercussions. The law is on HIS side.

That was the Confederacy. That is FAR worse then living under communism - unless you are white, of course.

You think the confederacy was worse than the governments of Stalin and Mao who killed countless millions. What fucking planet do you live on. You are truley a fucking idiot.

[Jackie S]

In the movie "Gettysburg", general Longstreet said, "we should have freed the slaves, and then declared war".

By the way, that flag is the battle flag of "The Army Of Northern Viginia". I am not so sure I would I would go as far as to say the men who fought under the banner were traitors, they were not trying to destroy the US Government, just form their own Country, not much different than the Founding Fathers had done less than 100 years before.

But Abe Lincoln put all of that to rest by saying yes, you can secede, but then you have to win the war.

I am a Southerner, Born and bred. But the South was wrong.

[IIFFOFRDB]

Originally Posted by Jackie S

In the movie "Gettysburg", general Longstreet said, "we should have freed the slaves, and then declared war".

By the way, that flag is the battle flag of "The Army Of Northern Viginia". I am not so sure I would I would go as far as to say the men who fought under the banner were traitors, they were not trying to destroy the US Government, just form their own Country, not much different than the Founding Fathers had done less than 100 years before.

But Abe Lincoln put all of that to rest by saying yes, you can secede, but then you have to win the war.

I am a Southerner, Born and bred. But the South was wrong.

Just like Ireland?

[Yssup Rider]

HOLY fuck.

I am neither surprised nor ashamed by the stupidity in this brilliant fucking thread...

[JD Barleycorn]

A lot of Irish fought for the south. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJEkWs4GOZY

In 1860 a man usually felt his allegience to his state more so than the United States. Robert E. Lee gave his reasons for being unable to lead the northern armies when offered by Abraham Lincoln. He said that he could not fight against his own country (Virginia) so he resigned from the U.S. Army.

Only a true idiot (and carpet bagger) would think that one battle flag of the army of Virginia would represent all Tea Party people. Look at Occupy, how many anti-semitic posters were shown and then there is the video of verbal and physical harassment of Jewish people by Occupiers. Does this mean that every Occupier is a Nazi, racist, Arayan?

If you want to attack the Tea Party do something really unique, attack them on their policy positions, their real policy positions not that things that Joy Behar says they are.

For the record son of the bog, my first ancestor showed up in the colonies (yes, colonies) in 1775 on the shores of Virginia. His brothers moved to Georgia while he, his sister, and other brother headed for Kentucky. He died in Kentucky while his family moved on to Missouri (the Platte Purchase) in 1818. Since then my family has roots in Mexico, Hawaii, Canada, and all over the western US.

It was CNN that broadcast a false report about the Tea Party when they showed someone carrying an AR-15 in the slung position. They talked about how dangerous and racist the Tea Party "might" be but didn't show that the man with the rifle was black. So much for the honesty of CNN.

[JD Barleycorn]

By the way, in case you didn't know (and it looks like you didn't know) this is the flag of the Army of Northern Virginia


This is the Confederate National Standard



Just for shits and giggles, here is the banner for the Confederate State of Missouri



Now you know and won't make that stupid mistake again.

[Whirlaway]

For every post you provide saying the war was over slavery I can post the similar saying it was about state rights, succession, and the freedom to choose.

For President Lincoln the war wasn't over slavery; but about preserving the union between the states. Read his letters and writings.

You are the worse kind of 1st generation immigrate. By the dumb luck of your DNA you are born here during the milk and honey years of America (the 1950s). You or your prior generation never contributed blood sweat or tears to the building of this great nation; yet you think you are entitled to call us traitors; mass murders; soldiers of an army worse than Stalin or Hitler. Those who actually lived, suffered, served and died a mere 80 years before your arrival? I suspect the same can be said for your (family's) life in Ireland; you flee what ever mess to come here for a better life; rather than make changes in your homeland. And of what consequence have you (or your family) done with your time here? Not much I suspect.

Many better Irishmen than you, came to this country and died/suffered serving in battle (on both sides). Many never had slaves, never desired to own them. They and their ancestors have the right to criticize. You should shut the fuck up, until such time that your or your family have made similar sacrifices for this great nation.

I hope you take your fucking carpetbagger attitude back to anyplace else but here. But if you do stay; learn to contribute to this great country before criticizing it about serious things that happened a mere 80 years before you (or your family) were even here.

You threw the towel in on New York, you move to the next land of milk and honey (Texas and the southwest), and you bring with you arrogance and stupidity. You are the worse kind of "anchor baby" immigrant; unlike those who came here and serve and contribute; you come here and leech. You give back nothing of consequence to this great nation.

Your the poster child for changing the 14th Amendment.

[Whirlaway]

+1

Originally Posted by rodog44

You think the confederacy was worse than the governments of Stalin and Mao who killed countless millions. What fucking planet do you live on. You are truley a fucking idiot.

[I B Hankering]

The racist, dumb-fuck Yankee jackass starts a second flame thread (MasterDickMuncher started the first) in one day! Fantastic! Living rent free in these lib-retarded mutha fucka's heads! Hilarious!


1.

Originally Posted by ExNYer

IBHankering

2.

Originally Posted by ExNYer

Interesting article.

Hankering.

Originally Posted by ExNYer

But, after that, what is worse?

Not the Soviet Union or Red China. Tell that to the Russian peasants bound to the "collective farms" and to the Chinese peasants who were daily marched into the fields by armed guards to work only to have their food taken from them at harvest leaving millions to starve, you dumb-fuck Yankee jackass. Explain to the millions who died in Stalin's gulags worked to death as slaves on minimum rations how their condition was superior to existing under plantation slavery, you dumb-fuck Yankee jackass. It might have sucked to live under a lousy economic system enforced by totalitarians, but that is far better than chattel slavery. Explain "how" to the million who died in Stalin's Gulag worked to death as slaves on minimum rations their condition was superior to plantation slavery, you dumb-fuck Yankee jackass.

Perhaps knuckle-dragging Confederate sympathizers don't agree with that, but that is because slavery (for blacks) wouldn't affect them. but put yourself in the place of a black person. You are robbed of everything you have by the person who owns you. Your master can whip you, hang you, burn you, sell your wife, sell your children, and even kill you with no repercussions. That is a lie, you dumb-fuck Yankee jackass. The law is on HIS side. Actually, the "law" proscribed such arbitrary abuse, you dumb-fuck Yankee jackass.


That was the Confederacy. That is FAR worse then living under communism - unless you are white, of course. You lie, you dumb-fuck Yankee jackass. Sheer time and numbers of those who suffered and died under communist rule far exceeds the time and number of slaves who suffered under Confederate rule, you dumb-fuck Yankee jackass.

Originally Posted by ExNYer

Of course it was.

The Confederate states wrote Declarations of Secession - similar to the Declaration of Independence - in which they stated their reasons for seceding. Yup, slavery was the reason why.

That's not what Mr. Lincoln said, you racist, dumb-fuck Yankee jackass. It takes two to tangle, and Mr. Lincoln's call to arms was to preserve the Union, you racist, dumb-fuck Yankee jackass -- not "slavery" or to emancipate the blacks. In fact, Mr. Lincoln was from Illinois, you racist, dumb-fuck Yankee jackass: a state that effectively excluded blacks -- both as slaves and as freedmen.

"I, Abraham Lincoln, President of the United States, in virtue of the power in me vested by the Constitution, and the laws, have thought fit to call forth, and hereby do call forth, the militia of the several States of the Union, to the aggregate number of seventy-five thousand, in order to suppress said combinations, and to cause the laws to be duly executed.

I appeal to all loyal citizens to favor, facilitate and aid this effort to maintain the honor, the integrity, and the existence of our National Union and the perpetuity of popular government, and to redress wrongs already long enough endured.

I deem it proper to say that the first service assigned to the force hereby called forth will probably be to repossess the forts, places, and property which have been seized from the Union, and, in every event, the utmost care will be observed, consistently with the objects aforesaid, to avoid any devastation, any destruction of, or interference with property, or any disturbance of peaceful citizens in any part of the country; and I hereby command the persons composing the combinations aforesaid to disperse and retire peaceably to their respective abodes within twenty days from this date. Done at the City of Washington, this fifteenth day of April, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and sixty-one, and of the independence of the United States the eighty-fifth. . . ."

ABRAHAM LINCOLN.
BY THE PRESIDENT.

BTW, you racist, dumb-fuck Yankee jackass, if the "Stars and Bars" (which, btw, was actually "square" and not the "rectangular" one you ignorantly posted in your ignorant OP) was such a dastardly battle standard, why the fuck did mick-pricks like you go around blowing up innocent men, women and children living under this flag:

Originally Posted by rodog44

You think the confederacy was worse than the governments of Stalin and Mao who killed countless millions. What fucking planet do you live on. You are truley a fucking idiot.

+1

[gnadfly]

Originally Posted by ExNYer

Interesting article.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/25/opinio...html?hpt=hp_c3

There are a lot of Tea Party members that are simply small government advocates. Many others are libertarians opposed to the security/police state. Still others are religious types who don't want gay marriage crammed down their throats.

But NOTHING undermines their legitimate causes and beliefs faster than when InBredHankering or one of his knuckle dragging cousins shows up at a TP rally and starts waving the Confederate Rag.

It amazes me what mantles you pick up exNYer.

I've haven't seen any pics of a Confederate Flag at a TEA party rally. I have seen pics and vids of black speakers though. Do you have a pic of IB at a TEA party rally waving that flag?

You want to see racist speech? Go to youtube and look for closed door meetings of the Congressional Black Caucus.

[Jackie S]

Originally Posted by JD Barleycorn

A lot of Irish fought for the south. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJEkWs4GOZY

In 1860 a man usually felt his allegience to his state more so than the United States. Robert E. Lee gave his reasons for being unable to lead the northern armies when offered by Abraham Lincoln. He said that he could not fight against his own country (Virginia) so he resigned from the U.S. Army.

Only a true idiot (and carpet bagger) would think that one battle flag of the army of Virginia would represent all Tea Party people. Look at Occupy, how many anti-semitic posters were shown and then there is the video of verbal and physical harassment of Jewish people by Occupiers. Does this mean that every Occupier is a Nazi, racist, Arayan?

If you want to attack the Tea Party do something really unique, attack them on their policy positions, their real policy positions not that things that Joy Behar says they are.

For the record son of the bog, my first ancestor showed up in the colonies (yes, colonies) in 1775 on the shores of Virginia. His brothers moved to Georgia while he, his sister, and other brother headed for Kentucky. He died in Kentucky while his family moved on to Missouri (the Platte Purchase) in 1818. Since then my family has roots in Mexico, Hawaii, Canada, and all over the western US.

It was CNN that broadcast a false report about the Tea Party when they showed someone carrying an AR-15 in the slung position. They talked about how dangerous and racist the Tea Party "might" be but didn't show that the man with the rifle was black. So much for the honesty of CNN.

I believe Shelby Foote stated that before the war, it was common to refer to the Country as " These United States". After the war, this was changed to "The United States"

[JohnnyCap]

Originally Posted by JD Barleycorn

By the way, in case you didn't know (and it looks like you didn't know) this is the flag of the Army of Northern Virginia

Originally Posted by JohnnyCap

Without wishing to shackle and torture a mulatto, I also find the flag attractive aesthetically.

That one above is the one I was referring to. I just learned it was the NoVA army flag from this thread.

Originally Posted by Yssup Rider

HOLY fuck.

I am neither surprised nor ashamed by the stupidity in this brilliant fucking thread...

Hey, I learned something. Maybe two things, if "Fuck you, God," is accurate.