Fighting the Guilt

[Laker]

Originally Posted by jackfengshui

Guy, I can say with a clear conscience that I hobby to save my marriage. I no longer dwell on what I am not getting from my wife, but rather on the positive aspects of our marriage. It also helps that I remain a family man who is always home in the evening or on weekends, and I don't deprive my family of anything financially.

Jack VERY well said!! Ditto from me!

[BrookeButtons]

I sent you a PM Guy with a suggestion towards if you want to move forward and hobby. There are providers out there that will make you feel more comfortable and at ease on your first visit. And keep it like how Jack and Laker have stated. If your hobbying to release the needs that your SO can no longer offer to save a marriage, than just leave it at that. Many men are in your boat. You would be surprised.

[Deepthinker]

Hey Guy,

I don't know that I can add anything at this point , but I'll weigh in anyway -- especially since many of the early responses were opposite what I would suggest. I am in agreement with Laker and Jack. As for the suggestion that you should avoid the Hobby if you are already feeling guilty before you start, I disagree. In fact, I would be more concerned about your marriage and counseling and such if you did NOT feel some guilt. Many of us have struggled with it to a variable degree. It still waxes and wanes for me. I have been with my wife for 25 years and in the Hobby for 20. The rest of my marriage has always been very strong and neither my wife nor I have any reason to consider divorce. I am happy with what I am doing , and she is happy as long as she doesn't know.

As the boys said, if you are unsatisfied at home, the Hobby helps your marriage by preventing resentment towards your wife's lack of interest in your Jenga dilemma. In my case, my wife has enough health problems (think severe Rheumatoid Arthritis), that no Jenga of any kind can be done without significant pain. All her joints are affected, hands, jaw, back, neck. No amount of therapy/counseling is going to rectify it. Does that mean I want to part ways with her? No, it isn't her fault. On the other hand, it would still be very hurtful to her to know that I do this. It is a great compromise though in that it keeps us together, and avoids the messiness of an affair.

I never feel guilty for actually doing this as I know it is the best solution. I think that I have worked through that part of it. The guilt that I sometimes feel is not the act, so much as the knowledge of how guilty I would feel if she found out that I am doing it. I also carry some guilt in regards to blowing through the retirement money, but since I am the one working , it will affect me more than her. It just means delaying retirement a bit.

So , in the end, you just need to decide whether the hobby is going to be helpful to your home life. If it is , and if you are willing to take the risk of what will happen if you are caught, then go for it. Expect to be anxiousguilty. In my case, it did not get worse, but rather it got easier as I saw the benefits myself.

One other tip I would give you is in regards to your question about starting with a spa. I am not much of a spa guy, but would think that is the wrong way to go. As you found out with your trial run, if you are already nervous, a spa is probably going to make you more nervous. What would put you more at ease is an Indy lady who understands your anxiety. Any of them who have been around for awhile have dealt with it before. Pick someone who seems to have a friendly nurturing disposition and can make you feel at home. That first positive experience will make all the difference for you. I would also schedule a longer appointment , so you have time to feel comfortable with who you are seeing. Don't try to work through your personal battle in a 30 minute quickie as it may take you that long to feel comfortable on an initial visit. I would recommend a couple hours.

Hope it works out for you.....DT

[Niktu]

I'm impressed by the amount of good suggestions and information here Guy.

But everyone's situation is different. I get the idea about lack of jenga at home, it's a common theme.
http://www.eccie.net/showthread.php?...ht=why+I+hobby

I think there is another great thread (I think by Laker), unfortunately I can't find it and need to run.

I agree with Jack and Lake. There are needs that must be met. I think one way or another they will be met. Hobbying may save marriages. I've had a few affairs, in my opinion they bring the emotional complications that can wreck a marriage.

That said everyone, men and women, consider sex outside the relationship from their own history and values. I obviously have no idea if this applies in your situation, for example I learned during the Tiger episode it's common for males raised in a strict environment who became active "later" to often have several partner's outside of the home relationship.

Where I may disagree with NB and the others is in counseling with your S.O. That may be wonderful and what you should do. But before that I suggest you initially get some counseling yourself. You need to figure out you before you can figure out the relationship with your S.O. or the hobby.

If you do pursue the hobby, one of the best words of wisdom I read was from the resident philosopher Offshoredilling. A hobby is seeing at least 3 ladies, seeing 1 lady is a relationship.


ps. Deepthinker posted while I was writing this. I'd give a of weight to his insights.

[Laker]

Nik

Was back on the old aspd site was a discussion between hobbying vs having a private FB. Was actually thinking about posting it up for renewed discussion on here. this thread is doing that, the guilt in that discussion was by consensus a multiple of that, that is here in the hobby.

DT, Very well put! I wanted to add after my previous post, at one point in time I did feel guilty about it, until like you stated, and Jack and Nik have stated, after I realized the ability to release by hobbying, both the physical, and the mental, the guilt left with the benefits it provided to the home situation. And like you stated, I too early this year decided to retire from here, in a large part due to likewise diveting retirement $$ to the hobby, but as you stated, my income is the only source funding it, an I have decided I would rather be healthy and happy, and if I need to work longer so be it.

And as you suggested it, not starting with a spa and seeking out an Indy as you outlined would be a better fit, there are several of just those on this board. DT, sir as you always do, your's are excellent thoughts brought to the discussion.

Guy, I hope the cumulative discussion here has helped, and rest assured you sentiments have been felt and considered here by many of us.

[Laurentius]

Originally Posted by jackfengshui

Guy, I can say with a clear conscience that I hobby to save my marriage. I no longer dwell on what I am not getting from my wife, but rather on the positive aspects of our marriage. It also helps that I remain a family man who is always home in the evening or on weekends, and I don't deprive my family of anything financially.

Pretty much ditto. My wife can't have sex due to psychosexual trauma. She has a lot of adjunct issues as well.

About 4 years into the "no sex" thing, I finally started losing my overall patience. And she needs a lot of patience because she needs a lot of help with things. I really gave chastity the old college try; and I made it for a long time but I was getting cranky, resentful, etc.

So I go see a lady I like and enjoy once in a while -- maybe 6-8 times a year -- and then concentrate back on my wife's needs with the patience she requires.

I guess I could always "do the right thing" and leave her to her own devices; but her family has threatened to institutionalize her if she becomes a burden on them. She can't do a lot of basic self-care stuff like drive herself to her therapist appointments.

[guest111111]

We are all in this for what i would think are different, yet similair situations.
The most important aspect of this hobby to me, is being able to find and be myself once again. Without that sense of passion in my life, other parts started to suffer, and i could no longer operate in the manner i wished to. For me, Sex is a necessary part of survival, its great if it can be with teh person that you love, but if it cant, at least in my case, the lack of sex drives you from the person you love. This hobby, has become an integral part of my happiness... My happiness makes me operate in the way that my family can enjoy my full participation, without there being resnetment that may carry over to other aspects of the relationship, the aspects that dont involve sex that make the relationship about more than sex. For me, Sex is one part. this hobby provides me with the outlet of gaining that one part of a great relationship thats missing. Moreover, its allowed me to introspectively look at myself and help me prioritize the important things in my life, and it allows me to keep those things in check. In short, it has helped me know myself on a level that i didnt' have before, that in the long run, has made me a better person and has made me become the family person i want to be and that my family needs...

[NormalBob]

Originally Posted by Niktu

Where I may disagree with NB and the others is in counseling with your S.O. That may be wonderful and what you should do. But before that I suggest you initially get some counseling yourself. You need to figure out you before you can figure out the relationship with your S.O. or the hobby.

Actually we agree on this but my clarity was lost over economy of words and options.

The first time we did serious marriage counseling was after we had been married for about three years. I had a long list of things my bride needed to fix so that our marriage would be right. When I heard myself tick through a prioritized list from 1-20... it dawned on me that I was a selfish prick. I promised I would never expect her to change anything until I fixed my own issues first. Twenty-seven years later, I've never asked her to change.

Had I gone straight to counseling on my own, I doubt I would have had that epiphany.

[elghund]

Funny.....sex seems like such a simple and enjoyable thing.......


....too bad as Human Beings, we think too much and tend to mess it all up!!!


I believe that if most of the hobbyists here were being satisfied sensually at home, they might not need to hobby.

If, in a safe and secure way, a hobbyist can get that satisfaction...keep the family life intact and shielded from the hobbying....I dunno, it seems like "no harm no foul".......

Thank goodness that there are quality providers available that can actually help keep some homes intact.....because there are WAY too many fractured families today as it is.....



Strange....conversations like this tend to keep me a bit reluctant about hobbying, to avoid the possibility of those guilty thoughts....and there I go thinking too much, I guess!!


elg....

[Maximum4]

If you're married, your cheating on your wife. It's adultery. You should feel guilty. Don't even get into the hobby. If you're not getting what you need at home and you can't get her to go to counseling then why are you staying there? Marriage should have it all, if it doesn't, get out I say. She should care deeply about your needs and you should about hers. There is someone out there who might be a better match.

Seeing an escort isn't going to save your marriage oe change your life. It's only going to complicate it and if you get snagged you're in for a world of hurt. You'll be fooling yourself if you think it's going to help you.

[BrookeButtons]

I disagree max. Many gents I see are married and very much happy with their marriage. Like how Laker stated, his wife has a disease that makes it painful to even try to have sex. So he should get divorce because she suddenly is unable to fullfill his needs sexually? I don't think so. People are quick to divorce.

Years from now, if I am unable to fullfill my SO sexual needs, I would rather have him go out find an escort than the find a new SO. Hobbying isn't cheating. Many gents and lady providers respect the personal boundries. Really this is just a business transaction.

[elghund]

Kinda felt a cold chill when I read Max's post.....and then Brooke, you returned a little warmth to the room!!

Kinda hard to want to make the personal decision of whether you are cheating or not......or simply being kind by not forcing your SO, who may not be able to enter into intimate relations any longer (for whatever reason)...to have to deal with the anger/resentment of someone who wants but is not getting sexual intimacy.

Everyone here does this for thier own very personal reasons...and I'm certain that every case is different.

Once you join this forum.....participating or not....I think you've lost the right to throw stones in your own glass house. And, I'm not saying that Max was doing that....because, at the least common denominator, Max is right. But, so is Brooke......

Because we are human.....well, no one is perfect, and we all have to adapt situations so that we can exist/function without either driving ourselves or our family crazy!!!!!!

For me...that drive is probably very short, BTW.....

elg.....

[NormalBob]

Originally Posted by Maximum4

If you're married, your cheating on your wife. It's adultery. You should feel guilty.

I agreed with you up to this point. When the sex is good in a marriage, it's only 10% of the relationship. When it's bad, it's 90% of the relationship.

If hobbying can take that pile of shit off the table and let you enjoy the other 90%, there can be a place for it depending on about 12,000 variables.

I'll start enumerating that list of variables tomorrow with the first 50 items on the list prioritized from 1-50.

[Laurentius]

Originally Posted by Maximum4

If you're married, your cheating on your wife. It's adultery. You should feel guilty. Don't even get into the hobby. If you're not getting what you need at home and you can't get her to go to counseling then why are you staying there? Marriage should have it all, if it doesn't, get out I say. She should care deeply about your needs and you should about hers. There is someone out there who might be a better match.

Seeing an escort isn't going to save your marriage oe change your life. It's only going to complicate it and if you get snagged you're in for a world of hurt. You'll be fooling yourself if you think it's going to help you.

I think this view has some merits in terms of moral absolutism, but I think it misses a hierarchy of values.

Stealing is stealing. Is it wrong to steal? Yes.

If you knew that I had a key to an atomic weapon I was planning to detonate in NYC and kill millions of people; and you had an opportunity to steal that key ... and that was the only way to stop me ... should you allow me to kill millions of people so your sould would be free of the guilt from stealing?

Few things in this world are so simple that they can be analyzed in the terms you have used. There is a hierarchy of values. While we might acknowledge a preference for avoidance of theft, killing, adultery and more; the rights and wrongs of these things involve context.

I have been in the military, both official and private. There is a high likelihood that in that employment, I brought about the deaths of innocent people. Does that make me the same as the BTK killer?

What if someone breaks into your home and after stealing everything he can find, asks you if you have a hidden safebox? What if he has no way of knowing if you lied or not, but if you tell the truth you will likely have an uninsured loss of thousands of dollars. I'll grant you, lying is wrong. But is it wrong to lie to the robber?

Why would we understand that sometimes theft is preferable, lying is good or homicide is justifiable ... while drawing such a hard line on adultery?

You make it sound like it is oh so simple.

Have you ever read the statistics on the odds of harm to children growing up without a father in the home? Have you ever discovered that in cases where the father tries to secure any form of physical custody outside of 1/7th visitation he loses 90% of the time?

Hey, sometimes some kids would be better off if their fathers were dead. But lets skip all that and cut to the chase. In MOST cases kids are better off with PRESENT fathers. Look up the statistics and see that it makes a difference in everything from rates of teen pregnancy to drug use to trouble with the law.

So a guy's wife who is otherwise fine won't or can't lay him.

So he should leave if she won't deal with that? Let his kids get by on a 1/7th dad?

What about a case like mine where if I were to ditch my wife (who is, btw, a truly kind and wonderful woman), she would likely end up institutionalized by her family?

Should her penalty for failing to lay me be "One flew over the cookoos nest?"

You know, chastity is not a normal state of being for men. Look at how it has been working out for the Catholic Church even among dedicated and highly religiously trained men. It is an unrealistic expectation. Monogamy I think is realistic in many cases. But chastity goes so far against nature as to be seriously problematic.

I'm sorry, but I feel zero guilt about visiting with a professional 6-8 times a year. In a perfect world, I would rather avoid it. But the world is not perfect, I am not the second incarnation of Christ, and every so often I am gonna get laid.

[offshoredrilling]

Originally Posted by Niktu

If you do pursue the hobby, one of the best words of wisdom I read was from the resident philosopher Offshoredilling. A hobby is seeing at least 3 ladies, seeing 1 lady is a relationship.

Take a week off and miss a great thread. Want to quote almost every thread. What I did quote, well I remember saying it. Just not when. But I think I remember why. I am single, and been with many providers. But see only a few over and over again. And so I have a relationship with the few that is close to being to deep(or is to deep)to be a hobby. But I am not a surgar daddy. And where where I am at, is not where you want to start.

Edit: delete the long book I wrote. I am not the right person to help you. And others have posted why you may want to run from this, or give it a try. As I do not have a SO, others that have posted have better window of where you are at. And would be the ideas to think about.