Why Mubarak Can't Leave

[theaustinescorts]

I think my point is this about Ho...

Even if Vietnam were united, if it were united under a non-communist government Ho would have led a communist movement there. If it required terror or an insurgency he would have done it.

[Booth]

I'm for democracy in Egypt. Hasta la vista, Hosni. He had a nice run as far as brutal dictators go but his time is up. To say he "can't leave" is un-American. Let the Egyptian people determine their own fate.

[DRorchia]

If true Democracy sprung up in Egypt, I think many people would be for it. So far that seems unlikely.

[KisserSoze]

Originally Posted by DTorchia

So far that seems unlikely.

Agree, unlikely.
A likely democracy for Egypt:
One man.
One vote.
One time.
A new person/group will gain power and hold on to it with a death grip, ruling as they see fit without reform. The possibility of more anti-western leanings is not a positive prospect.

[DRorchia]

Originally Posted by KisserSoze

Agree, unlikely.
A likely democracy for Egypt:
One man.
One vote.
One time.
A new person/group will gain power and hold on to it with a death grip, ruling as they see fit without reform. The possibility of more anti-western leanings is not a positive prospect.

+1

[runswithscissors]

The Vice President seems to be emerging as a front runner; although any elections will be fraudulent; this is giving the Muslim Brotherhood the opportunity to form a "political party" and begin to influence the elections...

I dont see the Egyptian people embracing the Muslim Brotherhood; their influences in Iran are very visible to the Egyptian people and I cannot see the nation leaning that way...

[theaustinescorts]

Most Egyptians want to put Mubarak on trial and execute him for the many people he's murdered.

The present negotiations center on how to provide him with a place to live outside of Egypt where he won't be extradicted later like Milosovitch and Charlse Taylor were.

This is now the major reason why murdeous despotes like Mugabe, etc. can't give up power...because of the examples that have been set of others who have been hauled up before the court in the Hague even after they were assured they wouldn't be.

As far as "democracy" there I don't think most Egyptians even care about that.

Democracy hasn't worked in Iraq.

What the Egyptians want is an honest military government like they had under Nasser. Nasser would never have sold out his nation's interests for an alliance with the US and Israel. That's emblematic of the problem with Mubarak -- he's forged a security relationship with Israel at the behest of the US which the Egyptian people find disgraceful and treasonous.

This is the heart of the matter, not the price of flour.

[Austinfunandfit]

While I don't think murdering civilians is a good policy for a leader... sometimes these muslim extremist nations need people put in line. We were blasting Saddam for murdering the Kurds with poison gas but look how peaceful Iraq was before we showed up. We've killed way more civilians than Saddam ever did.

[theaustinescorts]

Not only would the people agree with you that less harm would have been done by leaving them free from invasion, but the new elected leader, al-Maliki, now has his own secret detention facilities, execution rooms and torture chambers.

There has been no human rights improvement in Iraq whatsoever.

Democracy has utterly failed there, which I believe was the real goal of the neocons who claimed otherwise when they attacked that poor place.

btw Saddam's regime was more honest, with less corruption and more opportunities for women, etc. than any government in the whole of the Arab world.

Despite Saddam's palaces and statutes, no one has yet found ANYTHING of Iraq's wealth in any Swiss banks belonging to Saddam Hussein....NONE.
This is the opposite of Mubarak, Yassir Arafat, the Saudi Royal family, etc., all of whom have vast accounts in Switzerland from the plunder of their own countries.

Before the US imposed sanctions in Iraq it was the best managed and most honest country in the region. Much better than Saudi Arabia or any of the monarchies.

The baath party of Iraq was the Arab version of facism, and that's the real reason why the Israelis worked so hard to destablize Iraq and destroy the baath. The Israelis assisted the Iranians all during their war in the 1980s, and have been planting stories in the US media about Saddam since that time, including the hoaxes in 1991 about the mistreatment of Kuwaitis by the Iraqis during the occupation. Those stories about Iraqis destroying babies in incubators at the hosptial in Kuwait, etc., were all untrue - and all tracable to Mossad.

[DRorchia]

I understand that you are against the war in Iraq and Afghanistan. I believe everyone who's read your prior posts knows that. Being against the war is fine, everybody's entitled to their opinion but what is not right, is you simply making things up. As in, completely making things up. I'll address those fabrications below.

Originally Posted by theaustinescorts

Not only would the people agree with you that less harm would have been done by leaving them free from invasion, but the new elected leader, al-Maliki, now has his own secret detention facilities, execution rooms and torture chambers.

There has been no human rights improvement in Iraq whatsoever.

Democracy has utterly failed there, which I believe was the real goal of the neocons who claimed otherwise when they attacked that poor place.

btw Saddam's regime was more honest, with less corruption and more opportunities for women, etc. than any government in the whole of the Arab world.

Please back up this assertion with facts. Less corrupt? Than who? He was caught red handed in the UN oil for food program were he pocketed millions of dollars. The same scandal Kofi Annan's son was part of.

"Contracts to sell Iraq humanitarian goods through the Oil-for-Food Programme were given to companies and individuals based on their willingness to kick back a certain percentage of the contract profits to the Iraqi regime. Companies that sold commodities via the Oil-for-Food Programme were overcharging by up to 10%, with part of the overcharged amount being diverted into private bank accounts for Saddam Hussein and other regime officials and the other part being kept by the supplier."

This of course was just one of MANY corrupt practices Saddam Hussein, his sons and his ministers were part of.

Despite Saddam's palaces and statutes, no one has yet found ANYTHING of Iraq's wealth in any Swiss banks belonging to Saddam Hussein....NONE.
This is the opposite of Mubarak, Yassir Arafat, the Saudi Royal family, etc., all of whom have vast accounts in Switzerland from the plunder of their own countries.

Wow, ok, I don't even know where to start with this complete falsehood. Just in case my words aren't enough, I included some pictures for you.
Fact: During the invasion of 2003 and for the next four years, several billion dollars in cash and gold were recovered during various raids on Saddam's residences, offices, palaces and from checkpoints set up along the border when his sons attempted to smuggle their wealth out of Iraq. Trucks filled with millions of dollars in gold bars, cash on PALLETS, hidden in trunks of cars and trucks. Here's just ONE single seizure early on in 2003.
"The initial find was confirmed by U.S. military spokesman Brigadier General Vincent Brooks: "During an action to stop a looting, soldiers from the [U.S. Army's] 3rd Infantry Division discovered a significant amount of money behind a false wall. The amount is believed to be in excess of $600 million, in $100-bills.
The cash was part of $1 billion withdrawal from the Jordanian central bank.

During my time in Iraq at half a dozen or more seizures like this were made while conducting searches and raids. So technically you're right TAE, Saddam didn't have it in Swiss bank accounts. He had it distributed in numerous Arab country banks and much of it was hidden in various places around Iraq itself.

Before the US imposed sanctions in Iraq it was the best managed and most honest country in the region. Much better than Saudi Arabia or any of the monarchies.

Best managed? If by best managed you mean for example:
1. In October 1988, at a party thrown in the honor of the wife of EgyptianHosni Mubarak, Uday beat to death one of his father's favorite servants, Kemal Hana Gegeo. Uday carried out the murder cooly and coldly, bludgeoning Gegeo to death in front of horrified guests. President Mubarak later called Uday a "psychopath."

2. As head of the Iraqi Olympic Committee, Uday oversaw the imprisonment and torture of Iraqi athletes who were deemed not to have performed to expectations. According to widespread reports, torturers beat and caned the soles of the soccer players' feet. The experience is intensely painful, but leaves no marks on the rest of the body. After the war, a New York Times correspondent verified that one of the torture devices in the basement of the Olympic building was an iron maiden (a sarcophagus with spikes facing inward that puncture the victim's body).
Let me ask you something TAE. Have you been to the Olympic building? I have. I've also been to one of Uday's "sex palaces" where he would bring women that his bodyguards had kidnapped off the streets and torture and murder them.
But let's not focus on Uday, let's talk about his Dad, Saddam.
3. Oh, I'm sorry, the list of human rights violations and massacres is SO LONG, that I could only include this link. These list the many massacres, tortures, false imprisonments that Saddam ordered between 1979-2003.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_r...ssein%27s_Iraq
President
The baath party of Iraq was the Arab version of facism, and that's the real reason why the Israelis worked so hard to destablize Iraq and destroy the baath. The Israelis assisted the Iranians all during their war in the 1980s, and have been planting stories in the US media about Saddam since that time, including the hoaxes in 1991 about the mistreatment of Kuwaitis by the Iraqis during the occupation. Those stories about Iraqis destroying babies in incubators at the hosptial in Kuwait, etc., were all untrue - and all tracable to Mossad.

You name ONE story about babies in incubators to be untrue. We had AMERICAN witnesses in Kuwait at the time of the Iraqi invasion that witnessed summary executions of Kuwaiti civilians in the streets, and there have been numerous verified findings of rape, looting and torture carried out by Iraqi forces on the Kuwaiti population. Shame on you for trying to deny this and for trying to rewrite history yet once again.

It really doesn't surprise me that once again you manage to bring Israel into this debate. You blatantly make things up about Saddam not being corrupt and not stealing billions of dollars and hiding it away for himself and his family, money that was recovered. (see pics)
Unlike you TAE, I walked in 5 of Saddam's palaces, I was in Iraq when large caches of money and gold were recovered and I spoke to many Iraqi's who were glad to be rid of the man. The stories Iraqi's told me of Uday, well, some of them I will never forget.

It's o.k. to be anti-war TAE. I have no issue with anyone disagreeing with why we invaded Iraq or Afghanistan. But start making things up out of the blue without any facts, and I have to call you on it.

By the way, since you weren't there, I'm assuming you got at least some of these made up facts from the media.
During my time in Iraq, I never saw an American reporter at the scene after a car bombing, suicide bombing, roadside bomb, mortar attack or any other attack where a large loss of life occurred. What I DID see, with my own eyes, were Iraqi "stringers", hired by the American reporters to go to these scenes. Most of these stringers had little to no experience in reporting or gathering facts. They were hired because they had the guts to go to these horrific scenes and could speak the language. I watched numerous times as these stringers would get their "facts" from 3rd and 4th person accounts, snap a few pics and then would go back to the Green Zone. Later on that day, I would see them on the roof of the Palestine Hotel, American reporters regurgitating "facts" relayed to them by their Iraqi stringers. Their "reports" would appear back home on the 5:30 evening news. Sure made for good viewing, the city of Baghdad in the background, American reporters talking breathlessly as if they had been there while a few snapshots are shown of the scene. Approximately 75% of the time a good portion of their facts were wrong. But hey, who cares about facts when you're late for your 5 o'clock evening cocktail a couple floors below.

[ChrisS]

He should have booked the Black Eyed Peas to play Tahrir square 2 weeks ago and he could have avoided the crowds

[mgohara]

Originally Posted by theaustinescorts

What the Egyptians want is an honest military government like they had under Nasser. Nasser would never have sold out his nation's interests for an alliance with the US and Israel. That's emblematic of the problem with Mubarak -- he's forged a security relationship with Israel at the behest of the US which the Egyptian people find disgraceful and treasonous.

This is the heart of the matter, not the price of flour.

Ok. As an Egyptian and Coptic trust me Nasser, Sadat and Mubarak are no friends of us. They punish us, let crimes be committed against, and try to stop us from believing in our own faith. The older Egyptians Coptic and muslim would more likely have Farouk back because he was fair to all regardless of beliefs.

Most people do not know what has been going on in Egypt for years. The presecution and tried extermination of the Coptics has been going on and ignored.

[theaustinescorts]

DTorchia,

Of course there was Iraqi Gold reserves being driven around in trucks during the war. In 1940 the Norwegians also drove their Gold reserves around in trucks to hide them from the Germans. Those Gold caches were Iraqi Gold reserves...nothing else.

What I'm talking about is that Saddam Hussein didn't have vast sums in personal accounts in Switzerland like all other corrupt Arab/African/Latin/Asian leaders have. He just didn't.

Of course if you're there you're going to hear horror stories. Do you think anyone who benefited from baath rule would walk up to an American occupying soldier and tell you how much Saddam did for their country? Of course not. They would have no reason to declare their love of your enemy.

Any American on the ground there is going to get only one side of the story.

Prior to 1991 and the Kuwait invasion Iraq was known by all...and I mean everyone, as the most honest government in the region. It was a brutal, facist regime bent on holding the country together by force and terror...just like every other regime in the region. The difference was that the other regimes are controled by Monarchs who treat their countries and wealth as their PERSONAL ASSETS. They don't give a shit about economic development, standards of living, benefits to the people, the role of women, etc. The Iraqi baath party was very much like the facists in Italy under Moussolini - an authoritarian government which existed primarily for the benefit of the people, and was accepted by most of the people very favorably.

Regarding Israel please don't try to convince me that the Mossad didn't have as a major priority the destruction of the baath in Iraq, because I was personally involved with the Mossad agents in the 1980s which were among those pursuing this. The Iraqi baath was the MOST ANTI-ZIONIST political force in the Arab world after 1978, and it's rising military power because of oil revenues made it's destruction a number one priority of Mossad....and they succeeded. They destroyed the Iraqi baath.
90% of the American "neocons" who lobbied for the 2003 invasion are Mossad agents - that includes Joseph Leiberman, Richard Perle, Robert Kagan, William and Irving Kristol, Paul Wolfowitz, "Scooter" Libby, Douglass Feith, Arnon Milchan, Rahm Emmanuel....all formal Mossad agents with Mossad agent numbers and case officers.

btw it's been a long time ago now, but the best book about the progress of Iraq under baath rule was by Christine Moss Helms, "Iraq:Eastern Flank of the Arab World," Westview Press.

Also in 1990 during the American deployment there were many articles about the Iraqi case against Kuwait. Former Texas Governor John Connolly wrote and spoke extensively about the inaccuracies of coverage and false claims regarding Iraq, particularly the theft of their oil by the corrupt Royal Family of Kuwait, the al-Sabbahs [who are total crooks who have looted the entire wealth of their country and sent it into their personal accounts in Switzerland].

[DRorchia]

TAE,
You're still not getting the picture. The gold was only one small part, Billions in CASH were recovered including large, muti-million dollar stashes still wrapped in various Arab bank coverings, such as Bank of Jordan among many, many others. Here's just a few links describing the many forms of corruption Saddam, his family and his ministers were involved in. $650 MILLION were recovered in the walls of one of his palaces alone. Ahmm, let's see, 650 MILLION, behind walls in a Palace...yes, you're right. No corruption going on there.
You are also incorrect on the bank accounts he and his family held around the world.
http://www.papillonsartpalace.com/hosadw.htm

But let's move on. People can write whatever they want but until you've seen it with your own eyes, you won't understand. I was NOT in the military in Iraq. Pretty sure I've mentioned that to you before. The capacity I was in gave me the opportunity to travel all over that country.
The reason I mentioned being in several of his palaces is this. When you've seen HUNDREDS of villages in that country, where each dwelling is nothing more than a mud hut, you see the complete and utter poverty that those villagers live in, then walk in some of Saddam's Palaces, you'll have no doubt in your mind what kind of leader he was. So to erase any notions that Saddam used the BILLIONS of dollars in oil money to make a better life for the people of Iraq....I call B.S.! The hospitals I saw were substandard to say the least, filthy conditions, primitive equipment, and the only people that received quality medical care prior to the U.S. invasion were members of the Baath party and other rich elite.

You conveniently ignore the link I sent you documenting the large scale massacres and executions he authorized over the years. You ignore all evidence that he indeed had lots of money stashed away, CASH money (if you want to choose to ignore the gold) no different than any of the other corrupt leaders you mention.
The coalition forces took over his main Palace in the Green Zone. I ate inside the U.S. dining facility that was located in the Palace on an almost daily basis. Swam in the pool there more times than I can remember. In one part of the Palace, Saddam had a huge mural painted. It was a 20 foot tall mural of Scud missiles, pointing west toward Israel.
As far as Mossad goes....Iraq has always been considered an enemy of Israel. Mossad will do what's deemed in the best interest of Israel. If you read George Bush's "Decision Points"....I don't think he gives the impression that he had to be talked into invading Iraq. Not by Mossad, not by Rahm Emmanuel (lol).

I'm pretty sure I've mentioned to you that in retrospect, I don't necessarily agree with the wisdom in invading Iraq. It could have waited if it would have become necessary at all. However, I'm confident in saying that with Iran's near completion of nuclear weapons, Saddam would have done everything in his power to obtain nuclear weapons as well. He was not one to be left out in any arms race. Eventually, we would have looked at the prospect of TWO nuclear middle east countries (not counting Israel), countries with leaders that can be labeled "unstable" at best.

I'm really not sure what motivates you to portray Saddam or Iraq as some kind of beacon in the Middle East. Some simple research will show you that he was as corrupt as any leader you named and a tour of the country would show you that he did next to NOTHING to improve the lives of average Iraqi's, especially Shiite Iraqi's which composed the majority of the population of Iraq. If that's your idea of a fair leader, one who has dozens upon dozens of lavish palaces spread around the country, who took in Billions of dollars in Oil profits for decades while his people lived in mud huts, who did nothing to improve medical care for average Iraqi's, who excluded the majority of the population from decent paying jobs based on their Shiite religion, well my friend, then you have some more studying to do.

[Billy_Saul]

You have a lot of patience DTorchia. Your viewpoints are very well informed and interesting to read. I enjoy your contributions.