Cognitive Therapy for Chronic Pain Sufferers

[Naomi4u]

Originally Posted by London Rayne

I was actually referring to a good azz whooping!

I almost choked on my frap reading this. Too funny

[NinaBrooke]

Originally Posted by London Rayne

I was actually referring to a good azz whooping!

:mf_seehearspe ak:

[DFW5Traveler]

"We can choose to use our growing knowledge to enslave people in ways never dreamed of before, depersonalizing them, controlling them by means so carefully selected that they will perhaps never be aware of their loss of personhood."
Carl R. Rodgers, Former President of the American Psychological Association (APA)

"It will of course, be understood that directly or indirectly, soon or late, every advance in the sciences of human nature will contribute to our success in controlling human nature and changing it to the advantage of the common wheel."
Edward Thorndike, Key Psychology Theorist, member of the "Eugenics Committee of the USA"

"We need a program of psychosurgery for political control of our society. The purpose is physical control of the mind. Everyone who deviates from the given norm can be surgically mutilated. The individual may think that the most important reality is his own existence, but this is only his personal point of view. . . Man does not have the right to develop his own mind. . . . We must electronically control the brain. Someday armies and generals will be controlled by electronic stimulation of the brain."
Dr. Jose M.R. Delgado, Director of Neuropsychiatry at Yale University Medical School, Congressional Record, No. 26, Vol. 118, Feb. 24, 1974. Delgado was reported as part of the "MK-Ultra" CIA mind-control program.

"To achieve world government, it is necessary to remove from the minds of men their individualism, loyalty to family traditions, national patriotism and religious dogmas...
Dr. G. Brock Chisholm, psychiatrist and co-founder of the World Federation of Mental Health

"... the proponents of the mental health program have been quick to elaborate a series of legislative proposals.... This is the age-old subterfuge of the collectivist, whose only solution for any problem, be it economic, social or political, is the passage of another law, the imposition of another tax, and the establishment of another bureau."
Dr. Lewis Alesen, former surgeon and president of the California Medical Association, 1960

"Show me a sane man and I will cure him for you."
Carl Gustav Jung, psychiatrist and psychologist, who praised both Hitler and Musolini

[Bebe Le Strange]

Originally Posted by DFW5Traveler

"We can choose to use our growing knowledge to enslave people in ways never dreamed of before, depersonalizing them, controlling them by means so carefully selected that they will perhaps never be aware of their loss of personhood."
Carl R. Rodgers, Former President of the American Psychological Association (APA)

"It will of course, be understood that directly or indirectly, soon or late, every advance in the sciences of human nature will contribute to our success in controlling human nature and changing it to the advantage of the common wheel."
Edward Thorndike, Key Psychology Theorist, member of the "Eugenics Committee of the USA"

"We need a program of psychosurgery for political control of our society. The purpose is physical control of the mind. Everyone who deviates from the given norm can be surgically mutilated. The individual may think that the most important reality is his own existence, but this is only his personal point of view. . . Man does not have the right to develop his own mind. . . . We must electronically control the brain. Someday armies and generals will be controlled by electronic stimulation of the brain."
Dr. Jose M.R. Delgado, Director of Neuropsychiatry at Yale University Medical School, Congressional Record, No. 26, Vol. 118, Feb. 24, 1974. Delgado was reported as part of the "MK-Ultra" CIA mind-control program.

"To achieve world government, it is necessary to remove from the minds of men their individualism, loyalty to family traditions, national patriotism and religious dogmas...
Dr. G. Brock Chisholm, psychiatrist and co-founder of the World Federation of Mental Health

"... the proponents of the mental health program have been quick to elaborate a series of legislative proposals.... This is the age-old subterfuge of the collectivist, whose only solution for any problem, be it economic, social or political, is the passage of another law, the imposition of another tax, and the establishment of another bureau."
Dr. Lewis Alesen, former surgeon and president of the California Medical Association, 1960

"Show me a sane man and I will cure him for you."
Carl Gustav Jung, psychiatrist and psychologist, who praised both Hitler and Musolini

What?

You lost me....

[NinaBrooke]

Originally Posted by DFW5Traveler

"We can choose to use our growing knowledge to enslave people in ways never dreamed of before, depersonalizing them, controlling them by means so carefully selected that they will perhaps never be aware of their loss of personhood."
Carl R. Rodgers, Former President of the American Psychological Association (APA)

"It will of course, be understood that directly or indirectly, soon or late, every advance in the sciences of human nature will contribute to our success in controlling human nature and changing it to the advantage of the common wheel."
Edward Thorndike, Key Psychology Theorist, member of the "Eugenics Committee of the USA"

"We need a program of psychosurgery for political control of our society. The purpose is physical control of the mind. Everyone who deviates from the given norm can be surgically mutilated. The individual may think that the most important reality is his own existence, but this is only his personal point of view. . . Man does not have the right to develop his own mind. . . . We must electronically control the brain. Someday armies and generals will be controlled by electronic stimulation of the brain."
Dr. Jose M.R. Delgado, Director of Neuropsychiatry at Yale University Medical School, Congressional Record, No. 26, Vol. 118, Feb. 24, 1974. Delgado was reported as part of the "MK-Ultra" CIA mind-control program.

"To achieve world government, it is necessary to remove from the minds of men their individualism, loyalty to family traditions, national patriotism and religious dogmas...
Dr. G. Brock Chisholm, psychiatrist and co-founder of the World Federation of Mental Health

"... the proponents of the mental health program have been quick to elaborate a series of legislative proposals.... This is the age-old subterfuge of the collectivist, whose only solution for any problem, be it economic, social or political, is the passage of another law, the imposition of another tax, and the establishment of another bureau."
Dr. Lewis Alesen, former surgeon and president of the California Medical Association, 1960

"Show me a sane man and I will cure him for you."
Carl Gustav Jung, psychiatrist and psychologist, who praised both Hitler and Musolini

love these quotes. Especially because i am a psychoogist. The dangers of manipulations are just too obvious. I have something else to think about - the so called MK ULTRA project where therapists and military made human experiences and made them take LSD and other drugs without their knowledge. Therapy comes pretty close to a religion at some point. Except cognitive therapy and Psychoanalysis after Freud. Jung is way too religious. His concept is too westernized. The archetypes have no value in india or asia. And he was a Nazi too.

Not only was he a Nazi, but also he was screwing his client Sabrina Spielrein a young woman who complained to Freud about this abuse . Jung made her have put into a mental hospital and it was only after his death that within diaries it was found (or was it letters) that he really had an affair with said client and the client was not lying.

Jeffrey Moussaieff Masson was writing in his book "Against Therapy" (he was an analysit himself who had access to a lot of letters Freud wrote and he published their content for which he got shunned from the society for psycholanalysis. In this letters between Freud and someone else it is stated that the oedipus conflict was a pure political invention, which means that - due to foundations of rich wealthy old men who sent their "freaky" mentally unstable daughters into therapy because they just would not behave correctly as daddy wanted - he reversed the original oedipus conflict theory.
It means specifically that there was some evidence of sexual abuse of which his - most of the time - female clients complained. At first he took it serious . then he stabbed his clients and the whole femalehood in the back by chalking it up to some female fantasies about having sex with relatives. That happened because the psychoanalysis was funded by rich clients, who withdrew money if he had kept the original theory up. At the end of his life he deeply regretted what he did.
His theory is still the reason why at some point the victim is portrayed as a villain and its so hard to proof sexual abuse as a real happening as opposed to a fantasy.
Interesting enough , Freud and Jung mostly had female clients who were too rebbelloious and sent into therapy by their strict fathers to be made more controllable.

A lot of that behaviour would have been perfectly normal for now. So Therapy goes some times really into the religious dogmatic field and the "model of humans" plays a big role in the perception of what is seen as reason for therapy or cure. I personally am sceptical of therapy as a tool to provide solutions. But i like therapy as experimenting with consciousness or finding alternative POVs.

Jeffrey MOussaieff Masson for example was

[DFW5Traveler]

Originally Posted by Bebe Le Strange

What?

You lost me....

Call It ADD. Bring up shrinks and I want to show you what some of the more brilliant of the profession are now being taught in schools. The psycho shrink chick I dated swore by Jung. She didn't like Freud and even though Jung was a Nazi, she refused to believe that his quote "Show me a sane man and I will cure him for you," was not made in jest.

[DFW5Traveler]

For Nina...

"This dogma (the soul) has been present in human psychology from earliest antiquity. No one has ever touched the soul, or has seen one in a test tube, or has in any way come into a relationship with it as he has with the other objects of his daily experience."
John B. Watson, behavioral psychologist

"…humanists still believe that traditional theism, especially faith in the prayer-hearing God, assumed to love and care for persons, to hear and understand their prayers, and to be able to do something about them, is an unproved and outmoded faith." "Traditional moral codes… fail to meet the pressing needs of today and tomorrow…" "Promises of immortal salvation or fear of eternal damnation are both illusory and harmful… The total personality is a function of the biological organism transacting in a social and cultural context. There is no credible evidence that life survives the death of the body."
The Humanist Manifesto 2, 1973

"We can therefore justifiably stress our particular point of view with regard to the proper development of the human psyche, even though our knowledge be incomplete. We must aim to make it permeate every educational activity in our national life…. We have made a useful attack upon a number of professions. The two easiest of them naturally are the teaching profession and the Church: the two most difficult are law and medicine."
Dr. John Rawlings Rees, "Strategic Planning for Mental Health", June 18, 1940

"To achieve world government, it is necessary to remove from the minds of men their individualism, loyalty to family traditions, national patriotism and religious dogmas..."
G. Brock Chisholm, psychiatrist and co-founder of the World Federation of Mental Health

Originally Posted by ninasastri

love these quotes. Especially because i am a psychoogist. The dangers of manipulations are just too obvious. I have something else to think about - the so called MK ULTRA project where therapists and military made human experiences and made them take LSD and other drugs without their knowledge. Therapy comes pretty close to a religion at some point. Except cognitive therapy and Psychoanalysis after Freud. Jung is way too religious. His concept is too westernized. The archetypes have no value in india or asia. And he was a Nazi too.

Not only was he a Nazi, but also he was screwing his client Sabrina Spielrein a young woman who complained to Freud about this abuse . Jung made her have put into a mental hospital and it was only after his death that within diaries it was found (or was it letters) that he really had an affair with said client and the client was not lying.

Jeffrey Moussaieff Masson was writing in his book "Against Therapy" (he was an analysit himself who had access to a lot of letters Freud wrote and he published their content for which he got shunned from the society for psycholanalysis. In this letters between Freud and someone else it is stated that the oedipus conflict was a pure political invention, which means that - due to foundations of rich wealthy old men who sent their "freaky" mentally unstable daughters into therapy because they just would not behave correctly as daddy wanted - he reversed the original oedipus conflict theory.
It means specifically that there was some evidence of sexual abuse of which his - most of the time - female clients complained. At first he took it serious . then he stabbed his clients and the whole femalehood in the back by chalking it up to some female fantasies about having sex with relatives. That happened because the psychoanalysis was funded by rich clients, who withdrew money if he had kept the original theory up. At the end of his life he deeply regretted what he did.
His theory is still the reason why at some point the victim is portrayed as a villain and its so hard to proof sexual abuse as a real happening as opposed to a fantasy.
Interesting enough , Freud and Jung mostly had female clients who were too rebbelloious and sent into therapy by their strict fathers to be made more controllable.

A lot of that behaviour would have been perfectly normal for now. So Therapy goes some times really into the religious dogmatic field and the "model of humans" plays a big role in the perception of what is seen as reason for therapy or cure. I personally am sceptical of therapy as a tool to provide solutions. But i like therapy as experimenting with consciousness or finding alternative POVs.

Jeffrey MOussaieff Masson for example was

[London Rayne]

I actually like Freud...won't say why, but I do think he has some valid insight into the oral and anal fixations lmao.

[TexTushHog]

Originally Posted by Bebe Le Strange

Well I know he has been on some modest medication. If I recall he has been taking Norco / Vicodin for roughly 6 months to a year, along with cortisone medication (don't remember what it was called). He has been in physical therapy several times, and he tries to keep active as he can. I know he has something called Ankylosing spondilitis (not sure if I spelled that right). He had one back surgery and has some significant hip problems. He is 65 years old. I worry about the medications he takes, and am concerned that the narcotic medication might cause physical dependency.

I am hoping that this new technique will give him some relief.

Ankylosing spondylitis is a chornic inflamatory auto-immune disease that effects the lumbar spine among other parts of the body. Here is a real superficial overview:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ankylosing_spondylitis

Doctor's attitudes toward the long term use of narcotic medications for chronic non-malignant pain (CNMP) have undergone significant change in the past ten to fifteen years. Many pain specialists now are less concerned about long term addiction potential, not because it is not a real concern, but because medical literature suggests that it is less problematic to patients and society than the effects (or sequelae, in medical parlance) of the chronic pain. In other words, better to manage the relatively benign side effects of the addiction than to 1) have the patient in intractable pain; and 2) have all the complications that go with the pain. But there has been some push back on this loosening of attitudes in the past 5 1- 10 years. And it's a complex area in which you can find good doctors on both sides of the debate.

But the bottom line, at least to me, is that 1) CT may be one tool among many that your friend may get some relief from; and 2) while your concern about pain meds is legitimate, don't automatically assume that narcotics are per se bad. Talk to your friend's doctor and ask hard questions and keep pushing until you get answers that satisfy you and your friend. If the pain specialist won't listen or take your concerns seriously, it's time to find a new pain doc. (If you need a recomendation in the Dallas area, I have colleagues in the medical field who can provide such recommendations.)

[Bebe Le Strange]

Alrighty...


I have had a chance to research this Cognitive Therapy thing. I originally thought that this would be of some help to him. But it is a psychological therapy treatment in which they teach you "to think yourself out of pain" essentially. I don't think this is something that is going to work for him. I don't want to see him spend money and time on this approach when it is obvious you cannot "think yourself out of pain". He lives with intractable pain daily.



Apparently this Doctor had him see an "in-house" psychologist and he said he had to fill out a very lengthy form and all the questions were centered around "drug seeking behavior" and "criminal activities". He told my family that he was concerned that the doctor thought he was some type of drug addict. He said he filled out a lengthy amount of forms and had to sign a contract of some type. I asked him to give me the copies of the forms and this contract so I could read it. In this contract it says things like: You will not seek out another doctor for your pain, nor seek pain medication from anyone except the doctor he is currently seeing. In addition the Doctor has the right to ask for video surveillance from the current pharmacy he is using for monitoring purposes. It also states he agrees to comply with periodic urine/blood sample testing and he is responsible for the payment of said testing should his insurance not cover it. This thing just goes on and on.



He is a 65 year old retired company executive. This man is not a drug addict for crying out loud.

So, we are looking for another Doctor for him. I think he got a hold of a screwy Doctor.


What type of Pain Specialist tells a patient with severe chronic pain that their pain is all in their head?

I am always the first in the family to speak up about my concerns over pain medications, but "thinking yourself out of pain" is down right ridiculous.

[TexTushHog]

Those sorts of contracts are very common at most pain clinics. And I wouldn't be particularly wary about them. Most people who are in chronic intractable pain that has a real biological basis like your friend are at risk of seeking meds from more than one doc. If he's not going to engage in that behavior, then he has nothing to fear. But docs in this field have to deal with that and have to be prepared to terminate their relationship with non-compliant patients without fear of being charged with medical abandonment.

[Guest083011]

WRT Jung and a Nazi connection (or lack of):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Ju...onse_to_Nazism
Plus if it's on the internet......

[NinaBrooke]

Originally Posted by DFW5Traveler

Call It ADD. Bring up shrinks and I want to show you what some of the more brilliant of the profession are now being taught in schools. The psycho shrink chick I dated swore by Jung. She didn't like Freud and even though Jung was a Nazi, she refused to believe that his quote "Show me a sane man and I will cure him for you," was not made in jest.

Oh god .. i once dated a Jungian too. ......i can feel you :-) hopeless case. too patriarchal....;-) The jungians never want to acknowledge that some of the thought pattersn of jungian analysis is a) patriarchal and b) fascist. It just slipps their mind. Psychotherapy can be as dogmatic as religion.

[NinaBrooke]

Originally Posted by SR Only

WRT Jung and a Nazi connection (or lack of):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Ju...onse_to_Nazism
Plus if it's on the internet......

Oh wikipedia is not really a scientific ressource. It can be used by Jungians to quote whatever they feel free. I speak german and i read with my own eyes german references and speeches Jung wrote in favour of fascism, he got invited plenty by so called german universities. He never apologized for them, not even after 1938. He felt very secure in his switzerland.
His connection to Freud dissappeared after the Sabrina Spielrein Affair

here is something else on Jung and his involvement with fascism: The Archetypes play very well into fascist belifs:

Jung and Nazism
Though the field of psychoanalysis was dominated at the time by Jewish practitioners, and Jung had many friends and respected colleagues who were Jewish, a shadow hung over Jung's career due to allegations that he was a Nazi sympathizer. Jung was editor of the Zentralblatt für Psychotherapie, a publication that eventually endorsed Mein Kampf as required reading for all psychoanalysts. Jung claimed this was done to save psychoanalysis and preserve it during the war, believing that psychoanalysis would not otherwise survive because the Nazis considered it to be a "Jewish science". He also claimed he did it with the help and support of his Jewish friends and colleagues. This after-the-fact explanation, however, has been strongly challenged on the basis of available documents. The question remains unresolved.

However, it is still a topic of interest whether Jung's later explanations of his actions to save psychoanalysis from the Nazi Regime meant that he did not actually believe in Nazism himself."

[NinaBrooke]

Originally Posted by Bebe Le Strange

Alrighty...


I have had a chance to research this Cognitive Therapy thing. I originally thought that this would be of some help to him. But it is a psychological therapy treatment in which they teach you "to think yourself out of pain" essentially. I don't think this is something that is going to work for him. I don't want to see him spend money and time on this approach when it is obvious you cannot "think yourself out of pain". He lives with intractable pain daily.



.

I`s stop short of not trying it. Pain can be related to behavioural modifications, be it because he reacts different when in pain, or be it that he supports patterns that deepen the pain. I`d go for it and try it together with medicine. The cognitive therapy by itself is not going to work. But i^d give it a shot. I think some therapies need to brand themselves and you misunderstand the quote of "thinking yourself out of pain". Its a catchy phrase. I would not overestimate the meaning of it. Many therapies in the USA use such phrases. It does not necessarily mean it to the extremes as its written. Cognitive therapy is defninetely worth a shot, i`d say.