Big Time Decisions

[growler]

I was going to leave this one alone. After all I am an unabashed romantic LOL. But as I was looking thru my desk this morning for info for a client. I came across a envelope with some things given to me (which brought a smile) by the child of a lady I became close to. Quite an extraordinary lady really. One of two such ladys I'll get up in the middle of the night to help LOL. Anyway I'll throw my 2 cents in as the others.

Frist thanks for your comments Sins of the flesh, So just what are you contemplating Stcloud? Where's ss4699 he would have some insight. The short answer is any thing is possible between two adults. Though it's far more complicated than that but not impossible. do I still see that lady no. Though that time I spent with her has become a part of the fabric of who I am. Would I become involved again, I've already said I was an romantic LOL, I do belive in the heart. My set of life exprences has tought me tomorrow isn't guaranted.......Sipapi, recently as my daughter and I were leaving a movie, and talking about it's ending I commented , you don't always end up with the person you love. to which she replyed "I belive you get many chances to love" food for thought.

[jaybee]

Originally Posted by sipapi

I did not gather the statistics only reported. I never mentioned education level, pimps or drug use. I stated my experience. The provider I dated was a victim of incest, did attempt suicide and did state she "hated" being a prostitute. Maybe she was lying on all 3 counts or maybe she did fall into the statistical norm for the profession.

You stated there is a difference between streewalkers and escorts, I made no mention of either. I have had $40 blowjob from a streetwalker in Tijuana and I have paid $5000 for two "escorts" in Vegas for a night of debachuary. To me there is no difference. Either way, they would of been charged with prostitution and me with solictation. Both extremes I was a john, hobbiest, client. The nomenclalure doesn't change the act. If I buy a shirt at a 2nd hand thrift store or Brooks Brothers, I'm still just buying a shirt, the quality and level service is just different.

The orginial post asked the question if he should pursue a relationship with a professional sex worker. I gave my personal experience and thoughts on the risks.

As far as your questioning why I stayed for 18 months. I make no apologies for giving full attention, trust, optimism to a relationship. I still believe given an enviroment of stability, trust, commitment, loyality the circumstances I encountered could still be overcome. While they did not with this particular SO, I will continue to subscibe to that philosophy. But thank you for reminding me to look inward, always good advice.

40 dollars vs 5000 and no difference........ bul shit.

what are you looking for????? a blacklist?

[sometinfishy]

If the question is can a relationship work between a provider and a hobbiest sure it can. All it takes is knowing the person. The time we spend with a provider is not real life and we should all know that. But with that said before anyone would try to have a long term relationship or marriage I would hope they meet the real person on both sides.
I have met several ladies I would not want anything more than a hourly friendship but I have also become friends with several. None of mine have risen to the level of long term/marriage but I see no reason it could not.

[JRLawrence]

Originally Posted by CaptainKaos

I just got done watching Vanilla Sky and it reminded me that there really is no such thing as a fuck buddy. Hobbying is waaaay better. And while some relationships in the hobby work out, it's rare.

Captain,

You really hit the nail on the head! Thank you for driving this point home. I was really in a bad place early in my life with a wife who died from breast cancer, and two young kids to raise. Thanks to my folks and her folks, I had a lot of help.

But, what about my feelings and my sex life. Not a chance with the girls that the family later introduced me to. Sex in the early stages would mean I was captured, and I really wasn't ready for another commitment; it takes time to heal. Life goes on, but sometimes we need to rest between the chapters in the book of life. The hobby was a life saver, and a lot cheaper than going to visit a shrink. There are times when you need to see the situation for what it really is. I didn't need a buddy, that could ruin my world, the kids came first. The hobby is to give the guys a break, if the girl can help to relieve the stress, that is great. However, I really don't need to ever spend my time thinking that the time with a girl was not well spent.

If I can't find a girl that I enjoy spending time with, I will just take the grandkids fishing, or spend the money on the kids.

Play safe, and have a good time.

JR

[Smokes]

W.C. Fields said, "Never try to impress a woman or she'll always hold you to that standard."
Kind of works both ways doesn't it?

[Sens55]

I would really like to know where you got your numbers. And even with that proof they always say there are lies, damn lies & stastistics.

Depending on how the original survey was done would tell you a lot about how those numbers were intendedto be viewed. Sins OTF brought up streetwalkers and that is valid. If the samples were taken from a disproportionate sample size was taken from SW's (or the sample wasn't random) then it would be a mistake to extrapolate those numbers into a larger and different population. While SW's & Escorts may both be providers they are two distinct sub populations that would need to be surveyed separately or if combined done so in a relatively representative fashion...and of course surveyed randomly. And you would need to compare them to the female population at large to measure if there was a statistically significant difference. And then the tests would have to be duplicated to validate a true difference.


You use a thrift shirt & Brooks Brothers shirts as an example. Yes. They're both shirts. But if you sampled only thrift shirts (or a disproportionate amount of thrift shirts) to determine their durability (as an example) you would be mistaken to use those numbers to represent the durability of all shirts and especially remiss in usng them to gauge the durability of Brooks Brothers shirts in particular. They just won't fit (pun intended).

In other words using statistics pulled out of thin air to support an argument is usually BS. Even if that wasn't your intent. I believe you believe it. And your personal experiences would validate them to you. But your experiences alone are enough to answer the original question. The stats only serve to detract from an otherwise powerful personal message.

[SinsOfTheFlesh]

God I love a man with a brain. I felt like I was back in Statistics class again! Oddly enough, I loved stats.

Originally Posted by Sens55

I would really like to know where you got your numbers. And even with that proof they always say there are lies, damn lies & stastistics.

Depending on how the original survey was done would tell you a lot about how those numbers were intendedto be viewed. Sins OTF brought up streetwalkers and that is valid. If the samples were taken from a disproportionate sample size was taken from SW's (or the sample wasn't random) then it would be a mistake to extrapolate those numbers into a larger and different population. While SW's & Escorts may both be providers they are two distinct sub populations that would need to be surveyed separately or if combined done so in a relatively representative fashion...and of course surveyed randomly. And you would need to compare them to the female population at large to measure if there was a statistically significant difference. And then the tests would have to be duplicated to validate a true difference.


You use a thrift shirt & Brooks Brothers shirts as an example. Yes. They're both shirts. But if you sampled only thrift shirts (or a disproportionate amount of thrift shirts) to determine their durability (as an example) you would be mistaken to use those numbers to represent the durability of all shirts and especially remiss in usng them to gauge the durability of Brooks Brothers shirts in particular. They just won't fit (pun intended).

In other words using statistics pulled out of thin air to support an argument is usually BS. Even if that wasn't your intent. I believe you believe it. And your personal experiences would validate them to you. But your experiences alone are enough to answer the original question. The stats only serve to detract from an otherwise powerful personal message.

[Sens55]

well right now my brain is swimming with them. I just finished my six sigma certification. Interestingly the last project centered on "Design of Experiments" which is my post in a nutshell. Wonder how the prof would have viewed it if I'd turned in my project on the variabilty of escorts being molested, abused, suicidal women vs the female population at large? Kind of chuckled thinking about it.

[christopherstcloud]

Captain Kaos you will have to elaborate on the Vanilla Sky reference. Growler I have been comtemplating a lot these days. I remember life before the Hobby and now and its been two different lives. If I take the next step im all in. There is no Push or insurance its 21 or bust. One thing I know is that I don't want to lose my friend who has bent over backwards for me, taken much of her time....her own time, to devote to helping me and to be an emotional support in me. She saw good in me. She once promised me she would always be in the picture....but if I ever wanted a normal life...she would have to be out of the picture. I know things changes for providers and hobbyists they have obligations. But if you're happy having that friend in your life isn't it worth it?

[sipapi]

Originally Posted by Sens55

I would really like to know where you got your numbers. And even with that proof they always say there are lies, damn lies & stastistics.

Depending on how the original survey was done would tell you a lot about how those numbers were intendedto be viewed. Sins OTF brought up streetwalkers and that is valid. If the samples were taken from a disproportionate sample size was taken from SW's (or the sample wasn't random) then it would be a mistake to extrapolate those numbers into a larger and different population. While SW's & Escorts may both be providers they are two distinct sub populations that would need to be surveyed separately or if combined done so in a relatively representative fashion...and of course surveyed randomly. And you would need to compare them to the female population at large to measure if there was a statistically significant difference. And then the tests would have to be duplicated to validate a true difference.


You use a thrift shirt & Brooks Brothers shirts as an example. Yes. They're both shirts. But if you sampled only thrift shirts (or a disproportionate amount of thrift shirts) to determine their durability (as an example) you would be mistaken to use those numbers to represent the durability of all shirts and especially remiss in usng them to gauge the durability of Brooks Brothers shirts in particular. They just won't fit (pun intended).

In other words using statistics pulled out of thin air to support an argument is usually BS. Even if that wasn't your intent. I believe you believe it. And your personal experiences would validate them to you. But your experiences alone are enough to answer the original question. The stats only serve to detract from an otherwise powerful personal message.

First this thread has gotten hijacked from orginial question. But the discourse is interesting, I have a couple questions regarding your post.

1) My hypothesis is that prostitutes suffer from abuse, suicidal attempts, emotional issues more then the general female population per the statistics available. Do you feel there is not evidence to support this?

2)Do you believe there is a difference in the act of prostitution between a SW and escort? Legally? Morally?

3)Is it your contention that statistics should not be used to support a position?

4)Not really a question, just a clarification. If you read my shirt analogy, I said they are both just shirts, there might be a diffference in quality or level of service between thrift store and Brooks Brothers. But a shirt is just a shirt.

I do agree with the oft quoted axiom there are lies, damn lies,and stastictics. But all statastics are not lies. Way off thread, but to that point. Read online this morning that 53% of Repulicans do not believe in climate change even though 97% of scientists do. Reminds me of another axiom, "a fool sees not the same tree a wise man sees". Not directed at you Sens, just those who deny the undeniable.

[Sens55]

Sipsapi,

But it IS deniable. You have given statistics but not shown source material for it. And your analogy about querying Republicans vs scientists is something I agree with you on. Most people accept those numbers at face value with no concept of the questions they were truly asked or how those numbers were determined. My points were saying that taking statistics out of context (and in this case there was NO context because you are the only source for those numbers to this point) is an ineffective way to make an argument. Especially when you had such powerful personal experiences. Had you stated your personal experiences, left the statistics alone, I think your message would have been much more powerful and no one would have said a word about it because now you're relaying facts of your own experience, not 3rd-hand (or 4th or 5th) numbers with not relative context.

And since you asked, I'll answer. If you wanted to "prove" your points,

1) I don't know. Is there? You have a hypothesis. What's your null hypothesis? Presumably that "prostitutes" (which in here is a term that may not reflect the majority of the girls on this board depending on it's definition in the survey!) do NOT suffer at a significantly different ratio than the female population at large. So set up your survey, run your numbers using the proper formula for the test. Determine the median and mean and the standard deviation from them to see if that difference is significant...meaning that it would have to occur at a rate that is, say less then 5% that the results were due to chance. "Evidence" is useless because it has no context. You can cherry pick events to state your case, but are you finding a representative sample? Or ones to support your argument? Run the numbers (which would be IMPOSSIBLE to get accurately) to find out. Otherwise it's just an opinion, not a statistical fact.

2) YES! I DO! Legally? Morally? I'm not a lawyer or a preist/preacher so it's not my job to say what the difference is. Nor does it matter. It's my opinion, as the question was opinion based. As someone proclaiming to have had a $5000 excursion and $40 SW BJ's, I would hope you truly see a difference. It's like saying Ponderosa and Ruth's Chris are the same because they both serve steak. Sure, but if I'm buying dinner, which would you prefer to eat at?

3) No. Statistics can and should be used...where applicable. And in the proper manner to support the intended argument of the sample. In your case, you used inferential statistics to make an inference on a population that differs from your sample population. That's a mistake. Also, statistics never "PROVE" anything. They only fail to reject the null hypothesis. Unless you sample the entire population (even then there is survey error), then any type of inferential statistic could give an incorrect result. At best you're saying that you're 95% (or 99 or whatever) sure that the results are not due to chance. However, there's always a possibility that they are...giving a false rejection of the negative hypothesis...or failing to reject it when you should.

4) OK. A shirt is a shirt. But what kind of shirt would you prefer? Which one would you wear to a job interview? Which one would you paint in? If there's no difference, do you mow the lawn in your BB suit? Again, you're taking a sample for a sub-population, extrapolating it to the entire population, then taking it back down to another sub-population for the argument. That's fine. But certainly you have to see the differences? If not, let's go shopping....

[JRLawrence]

Originally Posted by sipapi

First this thread has gotten hijacked from orginial question. But the discourse is interesting, I have a couple questions regarding your post........

3)Is it your contention that statistics should not be used to support a position?

After spending many months with graduate level statistics, using statistics for operational research at several of the largest companies in the USA, and several papers on statistical research methods I feel qualified to comment.

Statistics should not be used to support a position, ever! Gathering statistics is used to describe the observed conditions. There is always a degree of confidence in your data (80%, 90%, 95% etc.) based on the limits of the data, the sample size, and the size of the population addressed. Statistics are a great tool to try to describe what is observed. However, it is widely misused by those who try to use it to prove a point, or to apply it from general observation to individual cases. Statistics doesn't tell us lies, but most people have not studied statistics. I regularly pick up news stories with information about statistics that are obvious lies with the intent of influencing people with the misapplication of statistics.

If you flip a coin 10 times and it has come up heads ten times the probability of it coming up tails the next flip is still 50%. But if you flip it 2000 times and it always comes up heads, look at both sides of the coin to see if there are heads on both sides of the coin. In other words, after data has been gathered is it suspect that your assumption that this is a representative coin true or false. Go further than just the data input.

Are the questions you are gathering data on correct, before you gather the data. Can the question ever be answered? If not change the question.

JR

[1963Cobra]

Originally Posted by JRLawrence

Captain,

You really hit the nail on the head! Thank you for driving this point home. I was really in a bad place early in my life with a wife who died from breast cancer, and two young kids to raise. Thanks to my folks and her folks, I had a lot of help.

But, what about my feelings and my sex life. Not a chance with the girls that the family later introduced me to. Sex in the early stages would mean I was captured, and I really wasn't ready for another commitment; it takes time to heal. Life goes on, but sometimes we need to rest between the chapters in the book of life. The hobby was a life saver, and a lot cheaper than going to visit a shrink. There are times when you need to see the situation for what it really is. I didn't need a buddy, that could ruin my world, the kids came first. The hobby is to give the guys a break, if the girl can help to relieve the stress, that is great. However, I really don't need to ever spend my time thinking that the time with a girl was not well spent.

If I can't find a girl that I enjoy spending time with, I will just take the grandkids fishing, or spend the money on the kids.

Play safe, and have a good time.

JR

I to am using this "hobby" as a way to stay sane! as with JR I have lost the love of my life and have no interest in bringing someone into my home with my kids. My kids deserve all of me and more bad than good can happen from a second marriage or multiple relationships. This is my escape and so far most of the "ladies" i have met have been wonderful experiences and I have truly enjoyed my time. Maybe some day i will find that new SO maybe not. Can a relationship develop out of a hobby like this. I would say yes if given the honest attention that relationships require. Until then we all need to remember this is an escape for most guys and the "alusion of a relationship" is what that time donation is.

Enjoy and stay safe.

[Sens55]

Thanks JRL. Pretty much my point exactly. Albeit you said it much more succintly!

[JRLawrence]

Originally Posted by 1963Cobra

I to am using this "hobby" as a way to stay sane! as with JR I have lost the love of my life and have no interest in bringing someone into my home with my kids. My kids deserve all of me and more bad than good can happen from a second marriage or multiple relationships. This is my escape and so far most of the "ladies" i have met have been wonderful experiences and I have truly enjoyed my time. Maybe some day i will find that new SO maybe not. Can a relationship develop out of a hobby like this. I would say yes if given the honest attention that relationships require. Until then we all need to remember this is an escape for most guys and the "alusion of a relationship" is what that time donation is.

Enjoy and stay safe.

Corbra,
Allow time to heal. Look after the kids. As one of the ladies here told me: "You sure have had bad luck with women." But I have been very lucky, I am on my third marriage, and my first two wives died. This one is very sick and I will stay with her no matter what. I now have three in-law families, plus my own. After Nam I learned that when the war is over; it is over. Walk away from it, get your head together and go on. Your first obligation is to the kids, and then to yourself. All of the family follow later. But to find a SO it has to be built on something other than the physical. I have been lucky, I had an education and the ability to make enough money to take care of the problems, and the loss. There are some good professionals, and some hacks, who may or may not be able to help you. Looking back: after a lot of stress, we all need a little rest. Both the service, and overseas contract jobs, called R & R: rest and relaxation. Take a guy out of the combat, and send him on a week's vacation. R & R was referred to many times with a wink, we all knew it meant more than rest and relaxation. I would recommend you look outside the world of the provider for a second wife for one reason only; you are looking for a life companion, and a step mother for the kids, and you are interviewing a woman for a tough job. Don't let your little head to the thinking for your big head - a tough job for most guys. Don't even allow sex for a longer time than you desire; if you are looking at a woman for the long term. The relationship must be built, and it is hard work. But, as some point sex will open up a lot of things that will you to really get inside a girls head. She will let her defense down, and let you know what she is really like; and you need to know that. I rejected women after sex, not because of the sex, but because I learned things that were not in my long term plans (what they really thought about children).

I have been really lucky. I have loved three women, and I have great kids and grandkids. Loving, really loving, women takes work and planning. Take them flowers, and do nice things for them. The good ones deserve it. The ones that are friends also deserve our kindness. The word love in the ancient Greek was a masculine verb (verbs don't have gender in English), it was used in the same way that the King of the country loved and looked after everyone in the county. He was a leader, and the leader looks after those he leads. For the good of the country the people were submitted (male and female) to the King, and the verb submit was feminine for love.

You got me started. I need to stop and get back to the computer.

Take care of the Kids,

JR