Prime examples of the dangerous costs of religion:

[Bebe Le Strange]

Originally Posted by I B Hankering

Dayum! and I thought I was posting on a literate board. Who mentioned Christianity? Who mentioned animism? The OP's post claimed all religion should be ended. My point is that Atheism is merely another religion. As such, it is no more verifiable than the extant religions of today or the extinct religions of the past. Plus, the OP then goes on to disassociate atheism from some of history’s most notable practitioners of atheism (@ Bebe Le Strange - BTW, you left out Karl Marx and Romania's Nicolae Ceausescu and some others. Care to enumerate how many have died or have been killed because of Marx’s atheistic beliefs?)

@ WTF You brought in the animist Mayans, and you did do in such a way as to suggest that they were happy in their beliefs. My point exactly. Thank you for your contribution to my argument.

In short, 809 million people have died in religious wars. That’s nearly a billion people. That is not counting the current wars over the past 10 years or so.

Conclusively, more people have died in the name of religion vs Atheism than in the name of Communism or (even Karl Marx and Romania's Nicolae Ceausescu) , the two combined times two.

[Sa_artman]

Originally Posted by Lauren Summerhill

Opportunity for discussion is limited when one side is convinced that they are unquestionably correct, and the opposing side has nothing of value to offer except the opportunity to criticize anything they say - which is true whether you are an atheist or religious. It usually ends in beating a dead horse.

No truer words spoken. It's like yelling at a mirror.

[Iaintliein]

BLS
I think you confuse cause and effect. Religion has been the excuse for many, many wars, but the "cause" of none. The people in power use it as a lever to control those who do the killing and dieing.

I admit I've not read all of the lengthy posts, but, I think it can be summed up more simply. The most dangerous thing in the world is the denial of self determination by those who embrace some form of "group think" be it bronze age mysticism, iron age mythology, nineteenth century political ideology, or new age global warming fairy tales.

As long as people of high intelligence lust for power and people of low intelligence prefer servitude to thinking for themselves we will be precisely where we are now.

The externalization of human evolution via technology should not confuse anyone into believing that we are somehow more advanced than our ancestors who squatted in caves and scribbled non-sense on dried sheep skins.

[I B Hankering]

Originally Posted by Bebe Le Strange

In short, 809 million people have died in religious wars. That’s nearly a billion people. That is not counting the current wars over the past 10 years or so.

It’s estimated that about 151 million people have died with the advance of atheistic communism since 1917 (that’s a little less than 100 years – religions have been documented as existing for at least 4,000 years now. Hmmm, makes you wonder). Another question, did your source include this number? If not, the death toll of religious wars (including those atheistically inspired) should be 960 million.

http://www.digitalsurvivors.com/archives/communistbodycount.php

[Guest053011]

Originally Posted by Iaintliein

BLS
I think you confuse cause and effect. Religion has been the excuse for many, many wars, but the "cause" of none. The people in power use it as a lever to control those who do the killing and dieing.

I admit I've not read all of the lengthy posts, but, I think it can be summed up more simply. The most dangerous thing in the world is the denial of self determination by those who embrace some form of "group think" be it bronze age mysticism, iron age mythology, nineteenth century political ideology, or new age global warming fairy tales.

As long as people of high intelligence lust for power and people of low intelligence prefer servitude to thinking for themselves we will be precisely where we are now.

The externalization of human evolution via technology should not confuse anyone into believing that we are somehow more advanced than our ancestors who squatted in caves and scribbled non-sense on dried sheep skins.

Well stated. Remove religion, and you do not remove violence, oppression and war, which means it is not the cause, merely one tool selected amongst many available. The purveyors of death, fear, chaos, power and destruction will simply find a different tool.

Heck, Darwinism was quite nicely twisted into Social Darwinism, and when combined with industrialism was the death of millions and nearly the annihilation of a people - a people despised for their religious beliefs and culture.

[I B Hankering]

Originally Posted by Lauren Summerhill

Remove religion, and you do not remove violence, oppression and war, which means it is not the cause, merely one tool selected amongst many available. The purveyors of death, fear, chaos, power and destruction will simply find a different tool.

+1

I agree with Iaintliein’s recapitulation.

But if you remove religion, you are probably also removing the only tool most people have to cope with violence, oppression and war, and the purveyors of death, fear, chaos, power and destruction.

[Guest053011]

Originally Posted by I B Hankering

I agree with Iaintliein’s recapitulation.

But if you remove religion, you are probably also removing the only tool most people have to cope with violence, oppression and war, and the purveyors of death, fear, chaos, power and destruction.

No one is in more need of "irrational" hope, then those who have been victims of darkness.

[I B Hankering]

Originally Posted by Lauren Summerhill

No one is in more need of "irrational" hope.

And those nearing death whether from age or disease. Remember your words.

[Guest053011]

Originally Posted by I B Hankering

And those nearing death whether from age or disease. Remember your words.

I know better then to turn my back on hope - even when times are smooth and comfortable

[Bebe Le Strange]

Originally Posted by I B Hankering

It’s estimated that about 151 million people have died with the advance of atheistic communism since 1917 (that’s a little less than 100 years – religions have been documented as existing for at least 4,000 years now. Hmmm, makes you wonder). Another question, did your source include this number? If not, the death toll of religious wars (including those atheistically inspired) should be 960 million.

Nazi Germany had "God with us" engraved in German on the belts of Nazi soldiers

Are you including in those numbers the deaths attributed to religion and it's advocacy of not using condoms around the world? The HIV / AIDS epidemic, the HPV (human papiloma virus) and cervical cancer?

Are you including the deaths attributed to not allowing someone the right to abort a fetus because it is against God's will even if it is detrimental possibly fatal to the mother?

How about the atrocious amount of deaths from the Serbians, Croats and Bosnians over religion and the genocides committed?

What about the killings and deaths in the middle east whose direct cause was related to their Muslim beliefs?

What about the beliefs barring embryonic stem-cell research that could save lives?



I guess I could try to research actual numbers, but I do believe you are not including everything in yours.


There is so much more I could include, but simply do not have the time to. As time does not permit me as I have to go to work!

[I B Hankering]

Originally Posted by Bebe Le Strange

Nazi Germany had "God with us" engraved in German on the belts of Nazi soldiers

“Gott mit Uns”—God with us. I know that. You’re the one who suggested Hitler was an atheist??!!

Originally Posted by Bebe Le Strange

Are you including the deaths attributed to not allowing someone the right to abort a fetus because it is against God's will even if it is detrimental possibly fatal to the mother?

Now you’re bringing in abortions? WTH? Yet, if I were to tabulate how many children died as a result of abortion and compared it to the number of woman who died because they couldn’t get an abortion; well, I’m guessing you’d know which number is substantially higher. And my stance on abortion is neither here nor there in regards to my statements about your original post.

Originally Posted by Bebe Le Strange

How about the atrocious amount of deaths from the Serbians, Croats and Bosnians over religion and the genocides committed?

Originally Posted by Bebe Le Strange

What about the killings and deaths in the middle east whose direct cause was related to their Muslim beliefs?

Maybe I’ve been unclear, atheism is a belief system: a religion. Every atrocity you put at religion’s doorstep is another indictment against atheism as well. Every atrocity you ascribe to another religion can be matched by one similar in nature but perpetrated by atheists. Simply arguing that other religions have caused more deaths does not excuse the deaths caused by atheist. BTW, as I pointed out in an earlier post, atheist are quickly closing that numbers gap.

[Guest053011]

Originally Posted by I B Hankering

Maybe I’ve been unclear, atheism is a belief system: a religion. Every atrocity you put at religion’s doorstep is another indictment against atheism as well. Every atrocity you ascribe to another religion can be matched by one similar in nature but perpetrated by atheists. Simply arguing that other religions have caused more deaths does not excuse the deaths caused by atheist. BTW, as I pointed out in an earlier post, atheist are quickly closing that numbers gap.

You know the very word "religion" to an atheist system is upsetting if that atheist is someone who is intolerant. Even if it isn't a religion, it is a belief. A belief that God does not exist. It is a belief, because one cannot prove or disprove God. All we have are theories. No proof of existence, is not proof of non-existence: often spoken by scientist when discussing the possibility of intelligent life or multi-cellular organisms and thriving organic planets.

And so anyone that suggests they have a definitive answer on the subject is naive - regardless of which side you argue.

Even if people argue atheism isn't a religion - which is irrelevant - the truth is, many die at the hands of those with no belief in God. You are most correct, it is closing the gap - at a much faster pace, thanks to the destructive capabilities of modern technology and the inherent greed of capitalism.

[I B Hankering]

Originally Posted by Lauren Summerhill

You know the very word "religion" to an atheist system is upsetting if that atheist is someone who is intolerant. Even if it isn't a religion, it is a belief. A belief that God does not exist. It is a belief, because one cannot prove or disprove God. All we have are theories. No proof of existence, is not proof of non-existence: often spoken by scientist when discussing the possibility of intelligent life or multi-cellular organisms and thriving organic planets.

And so anyone that suggests they have a definitive answer on the subject is naive - regardless of which side you argue.

Even if people argue atheism isn't a religion - which is irrelevant - the truth is, many die at the hands of those with no belief in God. You are most correct, it is closing the gap - at a much faster pace, thanks to the destructive capabilities of modern technology and the inherent greed of capitalism.

+1
The atheist who chooses not to believe and sits quietly at home has a personal belief. The atheist—who dictates that all others should not believe—is peddling a religion.

[Guest053011]

Originally Posted by I B Hankering

+1
The atheist who chooses not to believe and sits quietly at home has a personal belief. The atheist—who dictates that all others should not believe—is peddling a religion.

They are attempting to convert someone to their own belief - it is the active attempt to change someones belief systems and culture to match your own under the belief that yours is superior and the only correct way to think, that is disrespectful and dangerous.

I would also go as far as to suggest, that there are those who used religion to kill people, had no belief in God at all, merely wanted to manipulated the masses with a concept they found laughable. Which would be the lowest form of human being.

[WTF]

Originally Posted by I B Hankering

@ WTF You brought in the animist Mayans, and you did so in such a way as to suggest that they were happy in their beliefs. My point exactly. Thank you for your contribution to my argument.

A child is Happy with the Easter Bunny and Santa Clause.

My point is that there isn't a lick of difference between worshipping the Sun God or the Christian God.

I would not try and convert either....can your religion say the same?

Originally Posted by Sa_artman

No truer words spoken. It's like yelling at a mirror.

Hey thats some folks favorite place to look!