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Old 04-29-2019, 11:57 AM   #16
bamscram
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https://rewire.news/article/2013/08/...ter-abortions/
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Old 04-29-2019, 12:23 PM   #17
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BS - Thank You for a good article on the matter:
Disproven: The Myth of Infants ‘Born Alive’ After Abortions

Aug 22, 2013, 11:05am Andrea Grimes & Sharona Coutts
Based on the evidence provided by states themselves, it is more than a little misleading for the House Judiciary Committee to suggest that newborn children are being murdered by abortion providers with regularity and abandon; it is myth-making and fear-mongering.

Are states harboring untold scores of Kermit Gosnell clones that are murdering aborted, but still living, fetuses in clinics across the country? In its letter to state attorneys general nationwide, the House Judiciary Committee seems to think so, taking at face value the anti-choice bogeyman of the soulless abortion doctor, slaughtering newborns in clinics across the country with nary a second thought.
The committee sent letters to all 50 state attorneys general, inquiring about criminal prosecutions related to abortion. The letters specifically cite the Born-Alive Infants Protection Act, a 2002 federal law “which provides that all federal protections for persons apply to every infant born alive.” It asked state attorneys general whether “prosecutors in your state treat the deliberate killing of newborns, including those newborns who were delivered alive in the process of abortions, as a criminal offense?” and requested that state officials provide a log of cases for the years 2008 to 2013 in which the act has been used in prosecutions.
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The answers provided by states show that Gosnell was, in fact, a rogue provider, and that there is no evidence of a pattern of infants being “born alive” after an abortion, much less of doctors killing infants in those circumstances. (Pennsylvania’s attorney general told Rewire that it did not have a copy of what it had sent to the House Judiciary Committee, or whether it had in fact replied to the committee’s inquiry.)
In responses from 38 attorneys general to date, not one AG office provided evidence that it has ever had cause to prosecute a physician for delivering and then killing a viable fetus, indicating that this notion—that there are multiple cases of fetuses surviving an abortion, only to be killed by a doctor—is a confection of the anti-choice camp, designed to replace fact-based arguments with the lowest form of fear-mongering.
Many of the responses from the attorneys general sound much like this one, from the Utah attorney general:
We did not find any cases in which a person was prosecuted for the deliberate killing of a newborn who was delivered alive in the process of an abortion. Similarly, prosecutors did not indicate that they had prosecuted any cases because a woman died or suffered serious complications as a result of an abortion. Finally, we did not find any cases in which a person was prosecuted for performing abortions after the statutory period.
Rewire has posted the responses from the attorneys general as part of our State of Abortion series. Our analysis of those responses shows that abortion is highly regulated and overwhelmingly safe. These findings hammer home the point that Pennsylvania’s Kermit Gosnell was an outlier. He has been convicted of first-degree murder and involuntary manslaughter, and has pleaded guilty to federal drug charges. He has been sentenced to life in prison without parole.
The uniformity of responses from state attorneys general on the question of so-called born-alive infants reflects the reality of the practice of legal abortion in the United States: 88 percent of legal abortions performed happen before 12 weeks’ gestation, according to the Guttmacher Institute, and well over 90 percent in the first 14 weeks. That reality is nothing like the nightmarish hyperbole put forward by the anti-choice movement.
When later abortions do occur, they can hardly be called “elective.” As Willie Parker, a Washington, D.C.-based doctor who provides later abortions, told the Washington Post last year, his patients come to him under “difficult circumstances,” with fetal genetic anomalies or in extreme poverty.
Vicki Saporta, president of the National Abortion Federation, a professional organization of voluntarily self-regulating abortion providers nationwide, told Rewire that evidence of “born-alive” infants killed by abortion providers is “not what anybody’s going to find.”
“This is not the standard of care or practice,” she said. “This is not what takes place at abortion clinics throughout the country.”
In fact, when individuals are prosecuted for the killing of newborns under the Born-Alive Infants Protection Act and state laws that mirror it, attorneys general report that they are parents, not physicians.
Michigan, for example, cited four cases of criminal prosecutions in the murder of a newborn child, all of which involved women who had recently given birth and asphyxiated, suffocated, or drowned a newborn..
In its response, the Idaho attorney general cites the tragic case of Jennie Linn McCormack, a woman who ordered medical abortion pills online in 2011 because she could not access or afford safe, legal abortion near her home, then used the pills to abort a non-viable fetus. Her case was ultimately dismissed.
But this question of “born-alive” infants after abortion has become a particular favorite among right-wing lawmakers looking to trap reproductive rights activists into advocating for murder.
During a state committee hearing in Florida earlier this year, anti-choice legislators ambushed a Planned Parenthood lobbyist with a “born alive” inquiry. Lawmakers asked her to consider a situation that is very real in terms of the crimes committed by Kermit Gosnell, but wildly hypothetical in the typical day-to-day practice of safe, legal abortion care as it is currently practiced in the United States. Flummoxed, the lobbyist struggled to answer questions that were largely based on a myth.
Responses both from states that heavily regulate abortion providers and abortion as a procedure—as South Dakota does—and states that place very few restrictions on either—as is the case in Vermont—are very much the same: They do not have cause to believe that their abortion providers are committing Gosnell-like atrocities, either rarely or with frequency.
Of course, as we receive more responses from state attorneys general, additional cases may come to light. For instance, a Florida doctor, James Scott Pendergraft IV, was subject to a $37 million judgment after one of his patients went into labor and delivered a daughter, in November 2001. The child survived, but “suffered catastrophic and permanent bodily injuries, impairment, disability, [and] disfigurement,” according to news accounts of the court documents. Many of these injuries were a result of her being born prematurely, at around 23.3 weeks. A pregnancy is generally considered full-term at 37 weeks.
Neither Pendergraft nor the other physician at the clinic had personally examined or assessed the patient, according to court documents, and her pregnancy was several weeks more advanced than she reportedly knew.
The Florida Board of Medicine has disciplined Pendergraft on numerous occasions. In 2007, it suspended Pendergraft’s medical license, and fined him $10,000 for allegedly performing an illegal third-trimester abortion. We are awaiting a copy of the Florida attorney general’s response to the committee, and will post it when it is received.
But even this case underscores the point: Instances of illegal providers can be found, but they are extraordinarily rare. And horrific as those cases may be, these two examples do not support any claims of a pattern of such cases throughout the United States.
Based on the evidence provided by states themselves, it is more than a little misleading for the House Judiciary Committee to suggest that newborn children are being murdered by abortion providers with regularity and abandon; it is the very myth-making and fear-mongering on which they increasingly rely in their push to eliminate safe abortion care.
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Old 04-29-2019, 12:30 PM   #18
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Yes, of course it's an emotional issue. You are taking a(actually more than one) "life" into your hands in the discussion.

The radicals on both sides should be ashamed of mis-information.

The left would have you believe that all of the right wants to ban abortions entirely. Total falsehood. Some do, but not the majority.

The right would have you believe that all of the left wants abortion legal right up to the table at birth(or even just after). Total falsehood. Some do, but not the majority.

In most cases all of the extremes(by definition) are outliers.

In this instance Trump is obviously grandstanding, but didn't actually say anything not true. These atrocities are taking place(whether legal or illegal). And taken at face value, there are those on the left right through some of laws coming through pushing to legalize these very same atrocities.

Thank You - EL - Agreed
I think even the extreme left - very few-if any- advocate for last trimester abortions except in case of fetal death or significant risk to health of the mother. Those issues are current law in most, if not all, all states.
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Old 04-29-2019, 12:35 PM   #19
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I'm not sure I understand this. If you've got a case where nonviable fetuses are suffering after late term abortions, and they're going to die, and you're prolonging the suffering by law or by making doctors afraid they'll be sued or criminally prosecuted, then this seems like a no brainer. Presumably nonviable means they wouldn't live long if the mother had given birth.

When Trump was angling for a run at the presidency as a Democrat or an Independent, he was "very pro choice." For a while he was in favor of late term abortions. So, oeb, if you assume the writer of your original link is reasonably correct in what he says (and I don't know enough about this to have an opinion one way or the other), here are the possibilities,

1. Trump has had a change of heart and he now, in his heart, is pro life. He read some garbage put out by the media and believes what's happening is a travesty, that babies are being killed.

2. Trump doesn't care about abortion either way. He doesn't care whether reports of baby killing in the media are true or false. His motivation in saying what he did is to appeal to and rile his base.

Not sure i understand your first paragraph, Tiny
Late term abortion - third trimester generally, is only in case of fetal death or significant risk to health of the mother. If such a child was born alive - and viable - could survive - it would be resuscitated and taken care of medically to help it survive. That is medical ethics and state law. No child born alive can be "Put down". That would be a murder charge for the physician.

Fetuses delivered with fatal conditions -non-viable_ are treated supportively and made comfortable. Active intervention to end a life is murder in all states.
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Old 04-29-2019, 12:38 PM   #20
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I started watching this and the first thing I thought was fetal tissue is important to medical research. The second thing I thought was why shouldn't you be able to sell fetal tissue. I believe people should be able to sell their kidneys. Then the woman starts talking about getting a Lamborghini for fetal parts, maybe as a joke, and I start scratching my head.

But yes, you'd think medical ethics should preclude sales, as opposed to donations, of fetal tissue. You definitely don't want to give that potential incentive to people or organizations to promote abortions.

Tiny Sale of fetal tissue Is Illegal. Tissue may be donated. Profit is prohibited. Planned Parenthood was victimized by anti-abortion scammers in the fake video. Those individuals have been prosecuted.

Abortion is only a very small part of the medical care PP delivers to underserved women.

Sale of body parts for transplant is also illegal.
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Old 04-29-2019, 12:40 PM   #21
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Not sure i understand your first paragraph, Tiny
Late term abortion - third trimester generally, is only in case of fetal death or significant risk to health of the mother. If such a child was born alive - and viable - could survive - it would be resuscitated and taken care of medically to help it survive. That is medical ethics and state law. No child born alive can be "Put down". That would be a murder charge for the physician.

Fetuses delivered with fatal conditions -non-viable_ are treated supportively and made comfortable. Active intervention to end a life is murder in all states.
Thanks for the clarification oeb. I thought, probably wrongly, that the debate was over prolonging the life of nonviable fetuses -- I don't know enough about this to even be comprehensible.
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Old 04-29-2019, 12:49 PM   #22
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Thank you, Tiny - for cogent discussion. It is a difficult and emotional issue.

I hope i can offer some clarification to the lies on both sides -from the extremists, usually.

unfortunately, those lies catch out the unwary and uninformed..



Non-viable fetuses - by definition- are dead at delivery.
Any fetus born alive is treated medically as i discussed above.
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Old 04-29-2019, 01:05 PM   #23
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Fetuses delivered with fatal conditions -non-viable_ are treated supportively and made comfortable.
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Non-viable fetuses - by definition- are dead at delivery.
You are contradicting yourself. Dead babies don't need to be "made comfortable".


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the video re selling fetal parts was a scam engineered by anti-abortionists.
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Planned Parenthood was victimized by anti-abortion scammers in the fake video.
Did you watch the video? Please explain what part(s) of it were "fake".

So what if the people who recorded it happen to oppose abortion? The PP woman didn't know that. She had no reason to make false statements.

If an undercover cop wears a wire and catches me saying something incriminating, does that make the recording "fake"?

Are you suggesting the PP woman was somehow entrapped into saying something that doesn't reflect PP policy? If so, explain.
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Old 04-29-2019, 01:13 PM   #24
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LL-you are not a physician and have never delivered a baby,
Non-viable does not necessarily mean "dead" at delivery. It can include conditions and diseases on compatible with survival.

The PP video is a scam engineered to spread falsehood about the organization.
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Old 04-29-2019, 01:26 PM   #25
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LL-you are not a physician and have never delivered a baby,
Non-viable does not necessarily mean "dead" at delivery. It can include conditions and diseases on compatible with survival.

The PP video is a scam engineered to spread falsehood about the organization.
You're right, I'm not an obstetrician. Are you? However, I do know obstetricians who are horrified by late-term abortions.

First you said non-viable means dead at delivery. Now you say it doesn't. Please make up your mind.

Still waiting for you to explain what exactly is fake about the video.
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Old 04-29-2019, 01:26 PM   #26
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I agree with Oeb. This issue is being blown out of the water to appease the Evangelicals. I don't agree with it.
I don't understand why this is even an issue anymore?
But the rhetoric is ramping up on both sides. Across the street where I am there is a medical complex that preforms abortions. In the last 3 or 4 months a bunch of anti abortion people have shown up with "free pregnancy tests"
signs and rosaries. They just stand there and quietly say their rosaries. I'll assume their Catholics. At first, when I saw that I though "well, good,their a quite bunch, just standing there saying their rosary instead of yelling and screaming at women going in." But then I though " No, this is much worse. This is shame and that's horrible for anybody." I've been here a number of years and this is the first time I've ever seen anything connected to abortion play out like this. This is an issue that is between a woman and her doctor. Federal government needs stay out.
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Old 04-29-2019, 01:35 PM   #27
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AE - AGREED!
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Old 04-29-2019, 05:45 PM   #28
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Another doctored video...
https://twitter.com/i/status/1090657473218920448
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Old 04-29-2019, 06:42 PM   #29
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https://www.bing.com/search?q=three+...875e8c9a5dcc20
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Old 04-29-2019, 09:06 PM   #30
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i like ball-peen hammers.





i heard a weird rumor in the internet the other day. something about liberals being baby killers and they like to use ball-peen hammers.


do you think that's true?
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