Mississippi’s flag

[Steel Wheels]

Google the “Articles of Confederation “ and maybe that will provide some insight into what the southern states had in mind...

[BassCat]

I hope we all agree that slavery was abhorrent?

I also agree that states rights were a huge part of the civil war. The federal government is way to powerful. The southern states saw this happening and stood up to try and curtail this from becoming so. They failed and we now live in a country where the federal government rules us one and all.

If you disagree with me one this take a look at federal law mandatory minimum sentences.

Imho the only crimes that should be tried in federal court should be matters of national security or crimes against the nation. Terrorist and the like. Not drug crimes or white collar. The states should make and uphold these laws. So many people have their lives ruined by federal minimum guidelines and the life long disenfranchisement that follows a federal conviction. Had the south won the war this would not be the case. The feds would not dominate every part of our lives the way they do.

To me the shameful part of the war was it was also tied to slavery. If that had not been the case history would look upon those who fought and died very differently. The thing is most of those who fought never owned slaves. The vast majority of southern men were themselves to poor to own a slave. The elite planter class were the ones who did and the ones who pushed the cause to keep slavery. I dont think your typical 18 year old farm boy from Mississippi could care less if slavery existed or not.

My great great grandfather on my mothers side fought in the 14th Alabama from July of 61 until the day they surrender at Appomattox on the 9th of April 65. He saw much combat and endured much hardship. The fact that he made it the entirety of the war is amazing to me.

I refuse to feel shame for my ancestors actions. If anything I am proud to know he stood up and gave his all to stop the federal government from stealing the rights from the states to govern themselves as they saw fit. I dont believe he did it to keep slavery. I could be wrong but in my mind he just wanted to lesson the governments control.

No matter what its sensitive subject and I can see pros and cons from both sides. Let us vote on it and then support whatever the outcome is.

[Greenstars]

It's not erasing history. I bet if I asked each of you to describe the swastika you could give me a perfect description of it and Germany has done just about everything they can to "erase" that history. Georgia removed the stars and bars from their state flag in '01 but you can still Google the Georgia state flag and see all previous versions including the '56 flag with the Confederate battle flag front and center. See no history erased. That's just a lazy argument. I'd give a little more weight to someone who said they didn't want to change it because they are racist and like it the way it is. At least they would be telling their truth, however absurd it may be.

Changing the flag has nothing to do with erasing history and everything to do with creating a better future. It's about realizing that a symbol that may bring great pride to you, brings your neighbor great ire. It's about recognizing that there are real disparities when it comes to race and our black communities have gotten the shit end of the stick for centuries. It's about saying I hear you and I support you as a fellow Mississippian.

Is changing the flag going to make it all better over night? Nope, but it's a step in the right direction.

Now I can go to bed and rest easy knowing I changed everyone's mind on the opposite side of this debate by arguing it on the hobby board. Let's get our attention back on the ladies now.

[winn dixie]

Originally Posted by BassCat

I hope we all agree that slavery was abhorrent?

I also agree that states rights were a huge part of the civil war. The federal government is way to powerful. The southern states saw this happening and stood up to try and curtail this from becoming so. They failed and we now live in a country where the federal government rules us one and all.

If you disagree with me one this take a look at federal law mandatory minimum sentences.

Imho the only crimes that should be tried in federal court should be matters of national security or crimes against the nation. Terrorist and the like. Not drug crimes or white collar. The states should make and uphold these laws. So many people have their lives ruined by federal minimum guidelines and the life long disenfranchisement that follows a federal conviction. Had the south won the war this would not be the case. The feds would not dominate every part of our lives the way they do.

To me the shameful part of the war was it was also tied to slavery. If that had not been the case history would look upon those who fought and died very differently. The thing is most of those who fought never owned slaves. The vast majority of southern men were themselves to poor to own a slave. The elite planter class were the ones who did and the ones who pushed the cause to keep slavery. I dont think your typical 18 year old farm boy from Mississippi could care less if slavery existed or not.

My great great grandfather on my mothers side fought in the 14th Alabama from July of 61 until the day they surrender at Appomattox on the 9th of April 65. He saw much combat and endured much hardship. The fact that he made it the entirety of the war is amazing to me.

I refuse to feel shame for my ancestors actions. If anything I am proud to know he stood up and gave his all to stop the federal government from stealing the rights from the states to govern themselves as they saw fit. I dont believe he did it to keep slavery. I could be wrong but in my mind he just wanted to lesson the governments control.

No matter what its sensitive subject and I can see pros and cons from both sides. Let us vote on it and then support whatever the outcome is.

What folks dont realize is. Is that back then a persons State came first! Then Country! People had pride for the State they lived in. Thats why States rights were so important. These Southerners were prideful and heroic men fighting for their State! Taking down their memorials is a crying shame!

[Hue Briss]

I’m a Republican, born and raised in Mississippi. I am very familiar with the rhetoric regarding the Civil War and it being about State’s Rights....not slavery.

I encourage you to read Mississippi’s Declaration of Secession from the US. It clearly states, in the third paragraph, that it was about slavery and the economic impact that ending slavery would have on us.

“Confederate States of America - Mississippi Secession
A Declaration of the Immediate Causes which Induce and Justify the Secession of the State of Mississippi from the Federal Union.

In the momentous step which our State has taken of dissolving its connection with the government of which we so long formed a part, it is but just that we should declare the prominent reasons which have induced our course.

Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin.”

It’s time to change the Flag. That flag doesn’t represent me nor does it represent a large portion of our state. Additionally, it does nothing to unify our state or our country. Let’s put it to a vote. We have two additional generations that have not had a chance to have their voice heard in the matter, with the last vote being almost 20 yrs ago.

I will fight for your personal right to fly that flag - but I don’t feel that it should be representative of our state or endorsed by our state.
Get a tattoo, put a bumper sticker on your truck or wear a confederate flag bikini- that’s your right. Just don’t hang it in a government building and force (what many people regard as a symbol of oppression) on our people.

If we, as human beings, are going to make mistakes.....I’d rather err on the side of love, compassion and empathy.

[hawkone]

This has been a great read. I compliment you all for the serious thoughtful messages. I was born and raised in Mississippi. My Great Great Grandfather was with the 35th Miss and killed at Corinth. My Great Great Step Grandfather rode with the 14th Tx of Forrest Cav. he was captured close to the end of the war. I honor the flag of the Confederacy and the Battle flag. BUT I don't think or want either to be on the state flag. I am afraid the WE lost the meaning of the Stars and Bars when WE let it become the symbol of extremist groups that have no respect for OUR feelings for the flag. We stood by and watched them steal it and it makes me sick that I didn't do something when it was happening. I will wager that most on here would not support the actions of those groups just like most don't support the activities of anti-fa nor what blm has turned into.

[Mandingo_]

You Sir, are the one in dire need of and education. Which 19th century newspaper would you like me to read. There are many so Im sure you have a few specific ones in mind. History speaks for itself. You “lost causers” drown yourselves in the lie that the war was not about slavery when that was EXACTLY the fundamental cause. CSA vice president Alexander Stevens stated quite clearly the aims of the new goverment and the circumstances that led t its existence. People follow flags for what they mean. You are in denial if you feel the confederate battle flag shouldn’t have tha connotations that it does. “States rights”, yes indeed. STATES RIGHTS TO ENSLAVE AND OWN OTHER HUMAN BEINGS AND TO DO WHAT THEY PLEASED WITH SAID PERSONS. The CSA battle flag may mean something different for you but the history of that banner and the cause/s it represented/represents speaks for itself. Perhaps you should consult reality rather than the fantasy you have built up around it.

Originally Posted by winn dixie

Im sorry you believe your post. The southern flags have nothing to do with race! Please read the newspapers of the 1850's thru the civil war era and educate yourself on the truth! The civil war was never about slavery! Both north and south had them. It was about the over reach of govt. elitism and states rights. Sound familiar? Were still having the same problems today!

[Mandingo_]

Damn. I forgot to mention MS Declaration of Secession. Good Spot. Like you, I was born and raised in Mississippi in the shadow of Beauvoir a block away on Highway 90. I would defend an individuals right to waive that flag and have done so for decades in uniform, but its time for Mississippi to embrace all her people. The confederate flag belongs in museums and battlefield parks. If you want to fly it from your home or truck go right ahead. THe one that flies for the state flies for all her people.

Originally Posted by Hue Briss

I’m a Republican, born and raised in Mississippi. I am very familiar with the rhetoric regarding the Civil War and it being about State’s Rights....not slavery.

I encourage you to read Mississippi’s Declaration of Secession from the US. It clearly states, in the third paragraph, that it was about slavery and the economic impact that ending slavery would have on us.

“Confederate States of America - Mississippi Secession
A Declaration of the Immediate Causes which Induce and Justify the Secession of the State of Mississippi from the Federal Union.

In the momentous step which our State has taken of dissolving its connection with the government of which we so long formed a part, it is but just that we should declare the prominent reasons which have induced our course.

Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin.”

It’s time to change the Flag. That flag doesn’t represent me nor does it represent a large portion of our state. Additionally, it does nothing to unify our state or our country. Let’s put it to a vote. We have two additional generations that have not had a chance to have their voice heard in the matter, with the last vote being almost 20 yrs ago.

I will fight for your personal right to fly that flag - but I don’t feel that it should be representative of our state or endorsed by our state.
Get a tattoo, put a bumper sticker on your truck or wear a confederate flag bikini- that’s your right. Just don’t hang it in a government building and force (what many people regard as a symbol of oppression) on our people.

If we, as human beings, are going to make mistakes.....I’d rather err on the side of love, compassion and empathy.

[Mandingo_]

It is an awesome thing to have forebears who fought in the war. I may not agree with the cause but I respect the soldiers. Still have yet to make my way to the Corinth battlefield.

Originally Posted by hawkone

This has been a great read. I compliment you all for the serious thoughtful messages. I was born and raised in Mississippi. My Great Great Grandfather was with the 35th Miss and killed at Corinth. My Great Great Step Grandfather rode with the 14th Tx of Forrest Cav. he was captured close to the end of the war. I honor the flag of the Confederacy and the Battle flag. BUT I don't think or want either to be on the state flag. I am afraid the WE lost the meaning of the Stars and Bars when WE let it become the symbol of extremist groups that have no respect for OUR feelings for the flag. We stood by and watched them steal it and it makes me sick that I didn't do something when it was happening. I will wager that most on here would not support the actions of those groups just like most don't support the activities of anti-fa nor what blm has turned into.

[winn dixie]

Originally Posted by Mandingo_

You Sir, are the one in dire need of and education. Which 19th century newspaper would you like me to read. There are many so Im sure you have a few specific ones in mind. History speaks for itself. You “lost causers” drown yourselves in the lie that the war was not about slavery when that was EXACTLY the fundamental cause. CSA vice president Alexander Stevens stated quite clearly the aims of the new goverment and the circumstances that led t its existence. People follow flags for what they mean. You are in denial if you feel the confederate battle flag shouldn’t have tha connotations that it does. “States rights”, yes indeed. STATES RIGHTS TO ENSLAVE AND OWN OTHER HUMAN BEINGS AND TO DO WHAT THEY PLEASED WITH SAID PERSONS. The CSA battle flag may mean something different for you but the history of that banner and the cause/s it represented/represents speaks for itself. Perhaps you should consult reality rather than the fantasy you have built up around it.

Cut copy and paste. Read what you wanna find! Thats ok! Across the nation the newspaper headlines were all about the federal govt infringement on states rights. Sure you'll find some slavery snippets. But thats not what the war was about! It wasnt until the proclamation by the treasonous lincoln did it become a real topic. Only ONE PERCENT of the south owned slaves! The norths numbers were much higher. Thing about opinions and hypothesis is that most can find material to back it up. Only when you have an open mind and spend years studying the subject, will you see the true facts!
Lincoln and grant wanted the war, They with others put the South in a position that they had to fight! Lincoln did this against his own people. He was not humble or a hero. He was a treasonous inept elitist.
Towards the end of the war the north started burning towns as they passed through the South! They wouldnt even help feed the starving Southerners. Black or white. Reconstruction was all about punishment. Very heavy handed punishment!
Ever since in some ways the South is still being punished! Just look at how northern elitists view the "South".
I agree the great state of Mississippi should vote on their flag. But damn how many times does the people have to vote on it.

[BassCat]

Well as I feared we wont get a say in this. They just voted to change the flag and it passed 85 to 34. I do not like being forced to do anything. It should have been voted on again as it had been in the past. I am fine with the flag being changed as long as Mississippians voted to do so. That is not what happened in this case. It was forced on us.

Does this mean I can go loot and burn police stations?

[hawkone]

BassCat, I too wish we had been given a chance to vote as citizens of our state, but I have feared the long drawn out spectacle of the event would have caused buzzards, magpies, and crows to descend and cause turmoil greater then we witnessed during the late 60's. Let's get it done and move on,,,,,,,,,BUT NEVER FORGET.

[winn dixie]

Its a sad day!

Long live the Confederate States!

[Steel Wheels]

The thing that bothers me the most is that some people will construe this as that their actions forced Mississippi to bow to their will...

[winn dixie]

Originally Posted by Steel Wheels

The thing that bothers me the most is that some people will construe this as that their actions forced Mississippi to bow to their will...

Its happening everywhere. The pc culture wants to rename John Wayne airport!
We must realize that was a different time and culture!