If the Feds Won't Do It...

[WTF]

Originally Posted by atlcomedy

If I lived with 20 people I'd be inventing all kinds of ailments so I could go to the hospital...and as soon as I got there I'd start counting down the minutes until visiting hours were over

Even Hugh Hefner only has 3 or 4 gals at a time! Nobody in their right mind would want to live with twenty people!

[Guest050715-1]

Originally Posted by WTF

Look ....if I had four people to support....well let's just say 41k would not cut it.

I damn sure would not be bragging about it!

No WTF, not with our lifestyles. But remember a lot of that $41k from entitlement programs. I was out and about and I realized I had forgotten a couple of things.

· If the mother works, let’s just say she earns $250 a week cash or the equivalent of $312 a week / $16,250 a year. Because the family is poverty stricken they are entitled to subsidized child care. I’m not sure the reduction amount so let’s just say 50%. I paid $150 a week during the school year and $285 during the summer or about $8,850 a year. So the subsidized amount would be about $4,400 a year.
· Now here’s the super, duper best part. Families with American children have social security numbers for their children. If the parents aren’t legal, they will “rent” the children – well the children’s’ SSN’s - to adults with SSN’s for deduction purposes and split the tax return between the two families. Of course, the earned income tax credit always comes into play. So money that was never put into the system is paid out to illegal aliens in the form of ½ of a tax return. For grins let’s just say a $2,500 tax return is split so the pay out for American children of illegal immigrant parents is $1,250.

So the realized annual income goes to $62,900. That’s pretty good money considering an HUGE portion of it is from entitlements to illegal immigrants.

Don’t get me wrong. I don’t want to start asking these folks for their papers or abuse them in any way, but I don’t want them gaming our system so that they have better access to healthcare, daycare and food that ordinary Americans that draw a documented paycheck don't have access to. And the children's SSN borrowing just plain pisses me off.

[Guest050715-1]

Originally Posted by WTF

......3) The level of the immigrants. Why not allow doctors and lawyers and engineers to move freely across our borders. That is the true free market. Reform our SS system is the better idea. Not protect the better politically connected. Let the doctors fight with cheap labor like the freaking hard working Americans do. If we are so advanced , nobody will hire them and they will go home.

Actually NAFTA allows skilled professionals and a handful of other professions to legally immigrate to the United States. The immigration laws for Mexico aren’t really square with other nationalities. The US has a lottery for most nations, but Mexico is exempt from this program so ordinary Mexicans have limited access to legal immigration to the US. The main ways are:

1. You have the right profession according to NAFTA.
2. You have enough money to invest in an existing American company or industry segment.
3. You marry someone that is either a legal alien or is a citizen.
4. You are sponsored by a child that is over the age of 21 that is an American citizen. I also believe that if the child is married, they can sponsor someone at the age of 18 - or at least that's the way I read the law.
5. You are sponsored by a blood relative. But, if you are a sibling or more distantly related, it is significantly more difficult to realize your goal.

[atlcomedy]

Originally Posted by OliviaHoward

Don’t get me wrong. I don’t want to start asking these folks for their papers.

Why the hell not???:hyp o_h4h:

[Rudyard K]

Originally Posted by WTF

anytime I hear all this'' immigrants bad'' talk, I'm reminded of it. Gotta throw out a reminder from time to time.

"All this"...? I've been reading it too. I don't see much "immigrants bad". I see a discussion about illegal immigration...opinions whether it is a problem or not...opinions whether it is a benefit or not...and the difficulties in coming up with a solution.

Lighten up there, buddy. It was a pretty civil discussion..."was" being the key word there.

[WTF]

Originally Posted by OliviaHoward

No WTF, not with our lifestyles. But remember a lot of that $41k from entitlement programs. I was out and about and I realized I had forgotten a couple of things.

· If the mother works, let’s just say she earns $250 a week cash or the equivalent of $312 a week / $16,250 a year. Because the family is poverty stricken they are entitled to subsidized child care. I’m not sure the reduction amount so let’s just say 50%. I paid $150 a week during the school year and $285 during the summer or about $8,850 a year. So the subsidized amount would be about $4,400 a year.
· Now here’s the super, duper best part. Families with American children have social security numbers for their children. If the parents aren’t legal, they will “rent” the children – well the children’s’ SSN’s - to adults with SSN’s for deduction purposes and split the tax return between the two families. Of course, the earned income tax credit always comes into play. So money that was never put into the system is paid out to illegal aliens in the form of ½ of a tax return. For grins let’s just say a $2,500 tax return is split so the pay out for American children of illegal immigrant parents is $1,250.

So the realized annual income goes to $62,900. That’s pretty good money considering an HUGE portion of it is from entitlements to illegal immigrants.

Don’t get me wrong. I don’t want to start asking these folks for their papers or abuse them in any way, but I don’t want them gaming our system so that they have better access to healthcare, daycare and food that ordinary Americans that draw a documented paycheck don't have access to. And the children's SSN borrowing just plain pisses me off.

Please lets stick to studies and not our extreme examples. They are nothing more than red herrings. Of course we do not care for the gaming of the system but it is not limited to immigrants.

I have said that we need to look at our entitlement programs but you do realize that the majority of those go to our own citizens.

Now I have provided a link showing that they are a net gain (illegal immigrants). I am willing to look at anything showing different.

[WTF]

Originally Posted by Rudyard K

"All this"...? I've been reading it too. I don't see much "immigrants bad". I see a discussion about illegal immigration...opinions whether it is a problem or not...opinions whether it is a benefit or not...and the difficulties in coming up with a solution.

Lighten up there, buddy. It was a pretty civil discussion..."was" being the key word there.

It was and it still is on my end!

Let's not set up no straw men on me now.

all I'm doing is holding up a mirror...ya'll don't like what ya see , don't blame me!

My point of the video was that it has been kicked around for fifty years....just because the Mexicans are now working in the restaurant does not mean we are being anymore logical in our approach than fifty years ago.


New Study Seconds Cato Finding: Immigration Reform Good for Economy


http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/2010/01/07/new-study-seconds-cato-finding-immigration-reform-good-for-economy/

[Guest050715-1]

Originally Posted by WTF

Please lets stick to studies and not our extreme examples. They are nothing more than red herrings. Of course we do not care for the gaming of the system but it is not limited to immigrants.

I have said that we need to look at our entitlement programs but you do realize that the majority of those go to our own citizens.

Now I have provided a link showing that they are a net gain (illegal immigrants). I am willing to look at anything showing different.

Actually, these aren’t extreme cases. My ex’s has duel citizenship. He’s a business owner and legal, but he has family and friends that are illegal. I was deeply embedded in Mexican culture for about three years, and I’m in the construction business. I’ve written employment letters for every employee he has and that I have ever had. I personally know several people that have used someone else’s children on their tax returns or vice versa. It is absolutely the way it is.

Go into a Food Town or a Sellers Brothers grocery store. Look what people pay for their groceries with: Lone Star cards and WIC vouchers. Beyond that, I know from watching and seeing the game in action. I’m sure there are tons of studies done about the number of illegal and legal, minor children of illegals that are on the free lunch program, daycare support program and medicare. I’m just taking a short cut because I actually know for a fact that it is an every day, common occurrence to game the system.

Alt, why am I not for paper checking? I’m just not. I guess I actually believe in “Give me your tired, your hungry and your poor.” I know it is idealistic and at some level ridiculous because, and I believe it was you that said this earlier in the thread, the world has more than grown up since we received the Statue of Liberty from France. But still………………..There has to be a happy medium somewhere. And that happy medium is getting them off – all of them – our dole. I firmly believe that to receive any entitlement that one of the two parents must be a citizen – not even a legal resident and certainly not illegal.

WTF, I’m not willing to settle for a net gain economically over all; a net gain after people here illegally and making more money than allowed by law to feed off of American entitlements. Period. I’m sure there is a net gain associated with all types of illegal or illicit activity. I’m not for that either. “Overall” I’m sure BP has pumped more money in to the American economy than they are costing in the Gulf right now. So what. I’m just saying if we don’t want illegals here, Uncle Sam should quit paying them to live here.

[WTF]

Originally Posted by OliviaHoward

WTF, I’m not willing to settle for a net gain economically over all; a net gain after people here illegally and making more money than allowed by law to feed off of American entitlements. Period.

Why not? That is how the world works. Without net gains we could not afford all the free loadin Americans. You do realize that they are the biggest drain on entitlements....not illegal immigrants!

Originally Posted by OliviaHoward

I’m sure there is a net gain associated with all types of illegal or illicit activity. I’m not for that either. .

Now wait just a minute and think about that. Afterall last I checked this biz was on pretty shaky legal ground. Me thinks you are picking and choosing just what laws you want abided by!

Originally Posted by OliviaHoward

“Overall” I’m sure BP has pumped more money in to the American economy than they are costing in the Gulf right now. So what.

So what? So we keep drilling! That is so what. Activity stops when it no longer becomes profitable. Oil drilling or Mexicans crossing the border adhere to that law. Apprehended illegal immigrants at the border are down by half despite a doubling of border patrol officers since 2000. Why? Because our economy is down. Illegal immigration is the trade off to a robust economy. I'll take that to the alternative anytime.

Originally Posted by OliviaHoward

. I’m just saying if we don’t want illegals here, Uncle Sam should quit paying them to live here.

I agree we should change entitlement programs but that is a drop in the bucket. Like worry about the one second difference in the atomic clock and your watch.

[Guest050715-1]

Originally Posted by WTF

Why not? That is how the world works. Without net gains we could not afford all the free loadin Americans. You do realize that they are the biggest drain on entitlements....not illegal immigrants!

Of course I do! But free loadin’, lazy asses are fodder for another thread. BTW, there are plenty of people legitimately on food stamps, and I don’t begrudge them one iota. Entitlements are safety nets and are there to catch people when they stumble, are disabled or just plain old.

Originally Posted by WTF

Now wait just a minute and think about that. Afterall last I checked this biz was on pretty shaky legal ground. Me thinks you are picking and choosing just what laws you want abided by!!

Touché you are correct. But we all have our little pets. Right? I do anyway. But this is far less harmful than the vastness of illegal immigration, drug dealing, etc.

Originally Posted by WTF

So what? So we keep drilling! That is so what. Activity stops when it no longer becomes profitable. Oil drilling or Mexicans crossing the border adhere to that law. Apprehended illegal immigrants at the border are down by half despite a doubling of border patrol officers since 2000. Why? Because our economy is down. Illegal immigration is the trade off to a robust economy. I'll take that to the alternative anytime.

I was drawing a parallel not opening a Drill Baby Drill discussion. But you are right. Any industry, I’d even go so far to say that most human endeavors are dollar driven. I think apprehension of illegals at the boarder may be down in the past year or two because of our economy, but not back to 2000. As I recall, we were blowing and going through about 2006 hard and fast.

Illegals stealing from the entitlement programs – especially when they have to lie about how much they make – is tapping an already bankrupt system. Americans that receive a documented paycheck aren’t able to lie about their incomes because it’s just that - documented. If someone is paid cash, they can lie and say they make whatever to get under the ridiculously low income benchmark set by the bureaucrats that would never in a million years have to live off the paltry amount set as the maximum income allowed to receive entitlements. But again, this is a completely different discussion to deeply explore the rickety legs the entitlement programs stand on, but it does have merit with regard to this discussion in that documented, legal workers don’t have access to “free” money.

Originally Posted by WTF

I agree we should change entitlement programs but that is a drop in the bucket. Like worry about the one second difference in the atomic clock and your watch.

I don’t wear watches; really I don't. And the entitlements received by illegals and their children really isn’t a drop in the bucket. What they siphon off Uncle Sammy is enough to pay their rent and then some. Housing is traditionally 25% of a person’s monthly income. That’s a whole lot more than a preverbal bounty – It is milk and honey money. I sure wish someone would annie up and pay my mortgage.

[WTF]

Originally Posted by OliviaHoward

Touché you are correct. But we all have our little pets. Right? I do anyway. But this is far less harmful than the vastness of illegal immigration, drug dealing, etc.

Well I happen to think none are harmful....I can't really talk about the last but lets say for the most part I think they should be legalized. Now YOU may think one is less harmful than another and another may think another is less harmful than the one you think....but they are all illegal....and should not be as far as I'm concerned.

How would you like another's pet peeve sending you out of this country for just trying to make a living?

Originally Posted by OliviaHoward

Illegals stealing from the entitlement programs – especially when they have to lie about how much they make – is tapping an already bankrupt system. Americans that receive a documented paycheck aren’t able to lie about their incomes because it’s just that - documented. If someone is paid cash, they can lie and say they make whatever to get under the ridiculously low income benchmark set by the bureaucrats that would never in a million years have to live off the paltry amount set as the maximum income allowed to receive entitlements. But again, this is a completely different discussion to deeply explore the rickety legs the entitlement programs stand on, but it does have merit with regard to this discussion in that documented, legal workers don’t have access to “free” money.

http://www.rodriguezgoestowashington. com/posts/13-illegal-immigration-myths-debunked
13 Illegal Immigration Myths Debunked

Whopper #3

Illegal immigrants are a drain on our economy because they don’t pay taxes.

Truth:
Everyone in this country, legal or not, pays sales taxes and property taxes either through their mortgage or rent. Moreover, 2/3 of the undocumented pay income, social security and Medicare taxes through the use of false social security numbers or Individual Taxpayer Identification Numbers. These contributions amount to billions of dollars into the U.S. Treasury every year, which they will never see returned unless… they send their children to public schools or visit an emergency room.

Whopper #4

Illegal immigrants and children have flooded the public school system & the emergency rooms.

Truth:
Yes, they have. This one is true. The poor in any society will always consume the most entitlements offered by the government. That is simply human nature. The problem is that we have turned the land of opportunity into the land of entitlements, and feel justified in claiming these entitlements only for those we consider to be truly American. If we want to return this country to its former glory, we need to get EVERYONE off the government dole.

[atlcomedy]

Originally Posted by WTF

Well I happen to think none are harmful....I can't really talk about the last but lets say for the most part I think they should be legalized. Now YOU may think one is less harmful than another and another may think another is less harmful than the one you think....but they are all illegal....and should not be as far as I'm concerned.

How would you like another's pet peeve sending you out of this country for just trying to make a living?




http://www.rodriguezgoestowashington. com/posts/13-illegal-immigration-myths-debunked
13 Illegal Immigration Myths Debunked

Whopper #3

Illegal immigrants are a drain on our economy because they don’t pay taxes.

Truth:
Everyone in this country, legal or not, pays sales taxes and property taxes either through their mortgage or rent. Moreover, 2/3 of the undocumented pay income, social security and Medicare taxes through the use of false social security numbers or Individual Taxpayer Identification Numbers. These contributions amount to billions of dollars into the U.S. Treasury every year, which they will never see returned unless… they send their children to public schools or visit an emergency room.

Whopper #4

Illegal immigrants and children have flooded the public school system & the emergency rooms.

Truth:

Yes, they have. This one is true. The poor in any society will always consume the most entitlements offered by the government. That is simply human nature. The problem is that we have turned the land of opportunity into the land of entitlements, and feel justified in claiming these entitlements only for those we consider to be truly American. If we want to return this country to its former glory, we need to get EVERYONE off the government dole.

Hey "Mr. Study" -- opinion pieces are not "studies" or support for your arguments.

Using that logic, you'd have participants on other message boards citing TTH's posts here as support for their contention that Texas lawyers are unhappy in Texas.....

[WTF]

Originally Posted by atlcomedy

Hey "Mr. Study" -- opinion pieces are not "studies" or support for your arguments.

Using that logic, you'd have participants on other message boards citing TTH's posts here as support for their contention that Texas lawyers are unhappy in Texas.....

All research has been made possible through the Reason Foundation, the CATO Institute and the American Immigration Lawyers Association.


Of course you are welcome to your antidotal evidence to debunk anything said. Just like when I go out on a paid date....I'm all ears!

[pjorourke]

Originally Posted by WTF

Well I happen to think none are harmful....I can't really talk about the last but lets say for the most part I think they should be legalized. Now YOU may think one is less harmful than another and another may think another is less harmful than the one you think....but they are all illegal....and should not be as far as I'm concerned.

Two points:
1) The fact that someone is engaging in an activity that may have illegal implications doesn't change their ability to recognize the fact that another activity is illegal. Using you logic, we'd never be able to convene a jury -- everyone violates some laws -- even if inadvertently.

2) The concept of boarders is fundamental to the issue of legality. If there were no borders, there could be no law. Who would the laws apply to? Laws are conventions of behavior adopted by a geographic set of people.

[pjorourke]

Originally Posted by WTF

Just like when I go out on a paid date....I'm all ears!

Doesn't that take a lot of the fun out of it?