The glory days of the HDH are over.

[Laurentius]

I think we are in agreement, just using different words.

Originally Posted by Camille

Two quick counters to these points.

1) The HDH ladies I talk of don't have any affiliation with TER. They don't post and there are no reviews...so trying to correlate data from there isn't really accurate..from the POV of *my* original interpretation of an HDH. Like I said before though, my opinion is just mine..it's by no means an absolute..but it's the one I am drawing from lol.

I think your point is reasonable and as likely to be correct as mine. That's why I took the 0.1% of ter-listed providers who charge>2k and multiplied that number by 10 -- presuming that 90% of HDHs don't show up in places like that. And it can't be forgotten that some of those ladies might simply be expensive GFEs, which is not the same thing as an HDH.

But my overall point would still hold. Even if we multiplied that number by 50 and said there are 50,000 HDHs in the U.S., they would still be vastly outnumbered by the number of men who could afford their services. (i.e. 3+ million millionaires, 35k with $20M+, plus the ease of international travel, etc.) So price alone is not the limiting factor.

I still think human limitations for the type of service provided -- notice where Lauren referenced bonding -- are the real limitation on volume moreso than price. The price is there to enable the lifestyle. The real limits are size of sympathy group and ability to find suitable men; because not everyone who can plunk down cash is suitable.

I don't even think we are disagreeing here. Not at all. When you describe the way an HDH assesses potential for connection and so forth; I think we are in agreement just using different words.

Originally Posted by Camille

2) "The provider who is a true friend"

.... There is a rather large difference between the two. I am extremely fickle about who I allow to be close to me in any aspect of my life because I don't draw veils over segments of my life and am therefore extremely forthcoming when you are in that circle. For myself, that "unspoken understanding" was something I found difficult to reconcile at that level. I have found myself much more content taking the low expectation/high bonus route....it works better for me. Of course the flip side of that is I see more men than an HDH...but it's a side effect I am happy and willing to accept. Do I have clients who are good friends? One or two yes.

I see this as you and I agreeing. I lack human bandwidth for more than a very small number of close friends to start with, provider, hobbyist or otherwise. So do you. Even if you wanted to, you could not have 100 hobbyists in your sympathy group as close friends. Friendly acquaintances? Sure. But close friends? You simply can't; any more than I could have 100 providers as close friends.

There are two providers I count as close friends. I might be able to add a third. But if I were to do so, that would exhaust my capacity. There'd be no room left at the inn after that except for friendly acquaintances.

[WTF]

Originally Posted by Laurentius

: "I am a former mercenary and still occasionally take jobs." . LOL

Are you The Matador?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVqzu...eature=related

Originally Posted by Laurentius

Gladwell elaborates on this a bit in "The tipping point."

Originally Posted by atlcomedy

There you go WTF, you got a new bestest buddy for your Gladwell fan club

Gladwell was talking about Dunbar's study...


http://www.lifewithalacrity.com/2004...nbar_numb.html

Expanding Dunbar's Numbers

To open up the discussion a bit, I'd also hypothesize that Dunbar's Number is just one datapoint in an overall equation describing what group sizes work and what don't. Working our way up from the smallest group sizes, I think we can find many break points, both above and below Dunbar's Number of 150.
In my experience the smallest viable group size seems to be somewhere in the range of 5 to 9.
Looking smaller, we see that a group of 2 can be tremendously creative (ask any parent), but often has insufficient resources and thus requires deep commitment by both parties. Notably, often the difficulty of a 2-person business partnership is compared to that of a marriage. A group of 3 is often unstable, with one person feeling left out, or else one person controlling the others by being the "split" vote. A group of 4 often devolves into two pairs.

In my opinion it is at 5 that the feeling of "team" really starts. At 5 to 8 people, you can have a meeting where everyone can speak out about what the entire group is doing, and everyone feels highly empowered. However, at 9 to 12 people this begins to break down

[woodyboyd]

Originally Posted by Lovely Victoria

Most of my clients are comfortable, but not exactly filthy rich. They are comfortable enough that a few thousand here to there is trivial. And I suspect most of the incidental expenses (hotels, meals, entertainments, etc) get buried somewhere in their expense vouchers.

That is whom most of the HDH clients are. Laurenitis' post was a common misconception about whom the rich really are.

http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/s...llionaire.html

"As a matter of fact, our trust officer friend spends significantly more for his suits than the typical American millionaire. He also wears a $5,000 watch. We know from our surveys that the majority of millionaires never spent even one-tenth of $5,000 for a watch. Our friend also drives a current-model imported luxury car. Most millionaires are not driving this year's model. Only a minority drive a foreign motor vehicle. An even smaller minority drive foreign luxury cars. Our trust officer leases, while only a minority of millionaires ever lease their motor vehicles."

The rich don't drive Ferraris. They sell them to suckers who want to appear rich. They themselves typically drive Fords. The ones that drive expensive luxury cars are the exception.

"Our household's total annual realized (taxable) income is $131,000 (median, or 50th percentile), while our average income is $247,000. Note that those of us who have incomes in the $500,000 to $999,999 category (8 percent) and the $1 million or more category (5 percent) skew the average upward.

We have an average household net worth of $3.7 million. Of course, some of our cohorts have accumulated much more. Nearly 6 percent have a net worth of over $10 million. Again, these people skew our average upward. The typical (median, or 50th percentile) millionaire household has a net worth of $1.6 million."

There is not that many men who are going to see HDHs with an income of $131,000 a year.

Originally Posted by Lovely Victoria

I can only speak for myself, but as Laurentius described, I am trying to limit the potential client population through the mechanism of the higher price. I see this model (actually, it's more of a preference than a model) as being advantageous from strictly safety and health perspective (again, only speaking for myself). To me this model implies that while money is a part of it, it is a lifestyle that is adopted by choice and not driven by necessity.

That is the best justification I have heard of price yet to date. The HDH wants to be in the top 1 to 5% or so of escorts. That is fine, but just understand that if your business volume starts to drop it may be due to competition from the SB and lower overall male wealth. I know a lot of women may just wait it out, but I think it is wiser to be more proactive than in previous years.

Originally Posted by Lovely Victoria

I also agree about the sympathy factor. I have a handful of gentleman friends and I am in constant/ regular contact with each of them. In fact, I speak to and/or exchange e-mail/ text everyday (you read it right, every single day) with my patron saint. Just this evening, I must have gotten a dozen texts from him venting about his work and whatnots. (Which is why it's taken me about 2 hours to compose this post and I no longer remember what the point of this post was.)

This reminds me of me so much ten, twelve years ago. I bet the typical man who is seeing a HDH is making thousands a day busting his hump but is badly in debt on the treadmill of the workplace. He justifies the expense by saying if I see said woman, I will be rejuvenated and make even more. Of course, he says that while going on buying sprees using that same rationale to justify buying custom made suits. Typically, a person like this has a closet full of clothes with the price tags still on them.

One of the things that I have learned from women is that they will often not work a job if they are not happy doing it no matter what the pay. Men will work through these negative feelings bottling up such emotions pretending they don't exist and cursing them as irrational. Then they will let them explode either venting with a woman like you or going on a shopping spree ETC. The only person I have seen talking about the excessive spending habits of the depressed, the fearful, or those lacking self-esteem is Suze Orman.

Victoria, I don't know you well enough to say this, but I described a HDH who had the gift of saying just the right thing to make someone's hurts go away, and I suspect you may have that gift as well. I said that if the HDH I knew could be bottled and sold, anti-depressants would no longer be needed.

The combination of looks, gab, and sexual prowess allowed this HDH who is now 40 (she could easily pass for 30) charge $2000 for a four hour date. My Angie Everhart SB lookalike, who is 23, is only the second woman with these gifts that I have met. And she wanted $3000 per MONTH but I pay her less than that because I haven't wanted exclusivity.

Still she knows she could count on me if she really needed something, and I am not using her as a human form of Prozac. I made my wealth, have gotten off that miserable high income treadmill, and am a much more secure and happy person. She can just be herself when she is with me, and that is pretty relaxing to a woman in this field.

[Camille]

Originally Posted by woodyboyd

That is whom most of the HDH clients are.

In all seriousness, how do you know who the HDH clients are?
Where is that conclusion coming from?

C

[woodyboyd]

Originally Posted by Camille

In all seriousness, how do you know who the HDH clients are?
Where is that conclusion coming from?

Camille, it is not that hard to surmise that the same men who are not paying for expensive luxury cars, $5000 watches, and McMansions change their habits when it comes to escorts.

I also personally know what is like to be in the high income and high wealth group and how I felt.

When I appeared my most wealthy was at the same point I was the most in debt in my life. The world is filled with high income people who were rich and are now bankrupt.

The authors of the Millionaire Next Door set up a party to meet the millionaires and they put out a fancy wine and cheese spread. When asked why none were drinking, one of them said, "I drink two kinds of beer, free and Budweiser."

Men don't come with balance sheets attached to them. If you really want to know who the wealthy men are, read the book.

[Camille]

Since you didn't answer the question, does that mean that you don't know and are assuming? Being able to read financial statements and follow the stock market does not indicte the habits of the HDH clientele. Just as looking for reviews on TER and elsewhere will not lead you to any of the HDH women. They are outliers. They don't fit into the normal scheme of things..even when "normal" is recession. I'm sorry if you think I'm being harsh, but this whole thread has been full of you talking about what HDH clientele are and are not and how an SB and an HDH are the same...when they are POLES apart. You have brought nothing to the table to back up this claims. It's fine to have an opinion but it's misleading to state it a sfact when it's just that; opinion. Sure, some of the clients were affected...but a great many are independently wealthy and haven't been affected enough to stop dropping a few grand here or there however crass and hard that might be for the rest of us to hear. It might be a hard fact, but it's a fact nonetheless.

Man, I think this has been beat to death now.
On to bags...

C

[..]

Originally Posted by woodyboyd

The authors of the Millionaire Next Door set up a party to meet the millionaires and they put out a fancy wine and cheese spread. When asked why none were drinking, one of them said, "I drink two kinds of beer, free and Budweiser."

Men don't come with balance sheets attached to them. If you really want to know who the wealthy men are, read the book.

ROFLMAO! woodyboyd sorry but this book is just a piece of crap. Contains lots of logical errors.

Beside you learn nothing about millionaires by reading books, just as you learn nothing about homeless people by reading books. You need to live with the milieu to understand them.

[charlestudor2005]

Originally Posted by ..

You need to live with the milieu to understand them.

Don't you mean "you need to live in the 'millionieu' to understand them?"

[Laurentius]

Originally Posted by Camille

Man, I think this has been beat to death now.
On to bags...

C

If the bags will keep you stateside for a few more months; I say that you should buy at least three dozen. (*grin*)

Of course, that stuff is largely lost on me. I look at the pictures and it doesn't look as though in terms of form, function and materials they are much different from the ones I see in Macy's. So I'll leave that to the experts.

[John Bull]

A million does not a wealthy person make.

[Leah Ireland]

Woodyboyd - "The rich don't drive Ferraris. "

Hey come on, some of them do - and they own them too. I live in Miami and lived in London before, in fact just about all the places I've lived have been pretty rich (Onassis would have approved!) - and there are still a lot of guys who own Ferraris...

I never met a woman who owned a Ferrari though. They're (the Ferraris) quite impractical and most women are far away from that kind of impracticality.

[Leah Ireland]

Laurentius - "The limiting factor of the true HDH as Camille described it is NOT her price. Rather it is the TYPE of service she provides. The type of service she provides essentially entails her clients becoming a part of her sympathy group. When it is considered that a provider may have parents, offspring, close personal friends, etc. -- there are not 15 slots available. At best, and this is a total maximum, there are 8. Likely there are fewer."

That is such a good quote and this is such a good thread. No wonder I have such a limited amount of energy for people! I tend to be really intense, and most HDH fees go nowhere near compensating real intensity. Except in private, probably totally separate from the internet, and I suspect that's where the real money plays out. So I've heard...

[woodyboyd]

that it should have a fire hazard attached.

Originally Posted by ..

ROFLMAO! woodyboyd sorry but this book is just a piece of crap. Contains lots of logical errors.

Beside you learn nothing about millionaires by reading books, just as you learn nothing about homeless people by reading books. You need to live with the milieu to understand them.

I didn't quote or paraphrase the theme of the book which does suffer from sample bias. I quoted the data from said book.

As for "needing to live with them", your assumption of who my peers are could not be more wrong.

Originally Posted by John Bull

A million does not a wealthy person make.

I am not sure where you get that I share such a view. The authors of said book didn't stop at people with $1 million. I repeat and this of all millionaires, "We have an average household net worth of $3.7 million. Of course, some of our cohorts have accumulated much more. Nearly 6 percent have a net worth of over $10 million."

And I think you have not figured in the time variable, JB. A millionaire at 65 is a heckuva lot different than a millionaire at 25. A person with a million at 25 is rich.

Originally Posted by Leah Ireland

Woodyboyd - "The rich don't drive Ferraris. "

Hey come on, some of them do - and they own them too. I live in Miami and lived in London before, in fact just about all the places I've lived have been pretty rich (Onassis would have approved!) - and there are still a lot of guys who own Ferraris...

Okay, this is not a true straw man because my comment was too extreme, but of all the things that those who want to appear rich but are not rich do, showing off the expensive car is the most common that I have seen. You are right, Leah, I know rich men that treasure expensive cars, but they are the exception not the rule. With rare exception, said men know that buying said cars is a notoriously poor investment.

One of my SBs was dating a guy with a Lamborgini. When she told me some things about him, they just didn't add up. At first, I thought he was lying about being rich. Then after some other things she said, I thought he did have money but from ill gotten means. Sure enough, the FBI picked him up and put his butt in jail for mail fraud. He is scheduled to go to trial in a few months.

Originally Posted by Camille

Being able to read financial statements does not indicate the habits of the HDH clientele.

This is just plain wrong. People spend money in very predictable ways. Over the last two years, I have seen women who were hard to book have to offer specials and start advertising. One HDH wrote me and asked how I was doing, something that she had never done before, which IMO was a clear attempt to solicit business. The $600 an agency in Dallas shut down/slowed to a crawl because of a lack of demand.

Originally Posted by Camille

Just as looking for reviews on TER and elsewhere will not lead you to any of the HDH women.

Oh, please, Camille, you have reviews on TER and you are wrongly idolizing your non-review colleagues. Every HDH on ASPD that I know of had reviews at one time even Ann Marie.

Originally Posted by Camille

They don't fit into the normal scheme of things..even when "normal" is recession.

You just want to believe what Laurenitis is saying is true and how the rich came out ahead in the recession. That is complete bs. The poor didn't lose $17 trillion. The people working at Lehman's, Bear Stearns, and AIG weren't poor.

Originally Posted by Camille

and how an SB and an HDH are the same when they are POLES apart.

Sorry, the relationship may be a little different but the core trade is still sex for money.

Exclusivity with a HDH is an illusion; with a SB, it can be reality. SBs do not have multiple pages of reviews.

Originally Posted by Camille

A man can quickly look for an HDH without having to wade through piles of ads and can bypass any sort of interview process.

This was the only point with which I agreed. But how does said man bypass the interview process? He looks at reviews either on line or from his buddies.

Originally Posted by Camille

Since you didn't answer the question, does that mean that you don't know and are assuming?

Camille, your question was about how I know of the spending habits of the HDH, and I did answer your question. I just answered it with empiric data as opposed to the rantings of Laurenitis who knows so much about the top 1% (even though he admits to not being in said group).

The reason you did not question him as to how he knows so much about the HDH clientele is simple: you liked his answer far more than mine.

Originally Posted by Camille

I'm sorry if you think I'm being harsh.

You have been harsh from day one, and I do not think you are one bit sorry. It is a lot easier for you to believe that I am a "prick" than speaking the truth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x64cy...eature=related

I get it.

[..]

Originally Posted by Leah Ireland

I never met a woman who owned a Ferrari though. They're (the Ferraris) quite impractical and most women are far away from that kind of impracticality.

For women a Ferraris has no value because it's a male symbol of status and power. However women have the same impracticalities. e.g. Birkin Bags

[..]

Originally Posted by woodyboyd

I didn't quote or paraphrase the theme of the book which does suffer from sample bias. I quoted the data from said book.

LOL! you "quoted the data from said book." I'm impressed.

Originally Posted by woodyboyd

As for "needing to live with them", your assumption of who my peers are could not be more wrong.

So woodyboyd entertain me more; tell me you are your peers?