Mosque at ground zero

[theaustinescorts]

The reason why there is no closure is because the justice system here was thwarted.

The nineteen people who flew the planes are all dead.

There were a handful of other conspirators who helped them. They should have been hauled into a court in New York City, tried and then executed. They would have been humiliated and the world would have seen our system functioning properly. Instead these guys are secreted away in gulags where they are thought of as heroes by their idiot followers. There still has been no justice - no closure.

Osama bin-Ladin first denied having anything to do with it, then when he realized he could play the hero he reversed himself and claimed he was the mastermind, though he wasn't. He was tracked in Afghanistan all through October and November and the Afghans were expecting the US to snatch him but they never did....and still haven't. The Afghans were fed up with bin-Ladin and wanted the US to get rid of him, but the US attacked them instead.

The media loved playing over and over again the footage of the towers collapsing. Their ratings soared as the public was jolted out of their otherwise boring lives. Their President went to the towers site and vowed revenge. Two countries who never did anything to the US were thereby attacked and invaded. Both invasions failed. The inhabitants of both countries resisted fiercely.

[mj2749]

Okay, now I'm just gonna come straight out and say it. You live in a true fantasy world. The Taliban and Al-Queda make up a very small percentage of the population in Afghanistan. As far as your assertion that the inhabitants of Afghanistan "resisted fiercely", again, you're way off the mark. The Taliban ran like the cowards that they are for the sanctuary of Pakistan during our invasion. They did NOT rise up and fight. Many of them wore women's burkha's in their attempts to escape. So much for the notion of "resisting fiercely". From 2001-2005 there was virtually no resistance in much of Afghanistan. So obviously your contention that the poor innocent population here in Afghanistan rose up to fight the unjust invasion is absolute hogwash. I've been here (Afghanistan) since 2006, I've seen the insurgency grow during that time but it's still nothing in terms of a popular uprising. I just spent the last 3 days this week riding around in a soft skin (unarmored) Land Cruiser in Kunar province, 7.5 miles from the Pakistan border. Drove through crowded market places in Asadabad, and not one person lifted so much as a finger in our direction. We got a lot of "Assalamu Alaikum's" which we returned in kind. The farmers are happy that the floods in Pakistan translated into much needed water for their farm lands in Kunar province. Most of the hard core fighters are foreigners, NOT Afghan.
I know you were in Pakistan in the 80's. This is 2010. It's time to catch up with the reality of what's actually happening on the ground TODAY, not what happened 30 years ago.

[theaustinescorts]

I did not say that every person in those two countries are participating, any more than the fighters in Afghanistan did against the Soviets in the 1980s.

The facts are that an insurgency grew up in both countries which is fierce. You can call the Talibs cowards, or seek to denigrate them if you choose, but they are the same people we supported in the 1980s with the help of Pakistan and many others in the muslim world. These same people are now supporting the Talibs against us for the same reasons. Eventually we had to withdraw from Iraq, and the place is even more repressive and backward now then when Saddam Hussein was there. We are now in the process of withdrawl from Afghanistan.

As for the 9-11 attack, Osama bin-Ladin had prior knowledge of it but did not participate.

The 9-11 attack was staged by the same group that bombed the World Trade Center in 1993. Ramsi Yousef was convicted for that but many others remained at large. Their plan was to use 12 planes in a coordinated attack but they had to scale it back to only 4.

The FBI worked this matter intensively after 1993 but then was drawn back when some of the people they were working against turned out to be working for other agencies.

One of the FBI officers who worked in that affair was John O'Neil, and he was convinced that the same group would seek to strike the World Trade Center again. He went so far as to retire from the FBI and seek to head up the security office there, which he did.
He of course died in the attack.

I believe it may be that Osama bin-Ladin was not captured when he could have been because if he were there would likely be a trial, and it would emerge that he was not the engineer of the attack, as he and the Bush Administration claimed.

Do you really think if the US wanted Osama bin-Ladin that it couldn't get him? If the US really wanted him they would have moved heaven and earth to do so, and would have succeeded.

[mj2749]

WOW, do you really just enjoy making things up. Did you ever bother to read the 9/11 Commission report?
So Bin Laden "did not participate"? Let's debunk this myth you're trying to spread right now.
The idea for the September 11 plot came from Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, who first presented the idea to Osama bin Laden in 1996.[99] At that point, Bin Laden and al-Qaeda were in a period of transition, having just relocated back to Afghanistan from Sudan.[100] The 1998 African Embassy bombings and Bin Laden's 1998 fatwā marked a turning point, with bin Laden intent on attacking the United States.[100] In December 1998, the Director of Central Intelligence Counterterrorist Center reported to President Bill Clinton that al-Qaeda was preparing for attacks in the USA, including the training of personnel to hijack aircraft.[101]
In late 1998 or early 1999, Bin Laden gave approval for Mohammed to go forward with organizing the plot. A series of meetings occurred in spring of 1999, involving Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, Osama bin Laden, and his deputy Mohammed Atef.[100] Mohammed provided operational support for the plot, including target selections and helping arrange travel for the hijackers.[100] Bin Laden overruled Mohammed, rejecting some potential targets such as the U.S. Bank Tower[102] because "there was not enough time to prepare for such an operation".[103] in Los Angeles
Bin Laden provided leadership for the plot, along with financial support, and was involved in selecting participants for the plot.[104] Bin Laden initially selected Nawaf al-Hazmi and Khalid al-Mihdhar, both experienced jihadists who fought in Bosnia. Hazmi and Mihdhar arrived in the United States in mid-January 2000, after traveling to Malaysia to attend the Kuala Lumpur al-Qaeda Summit. In spring 2000, Hazmi and Mihdhar took flying lessons in San Diego, California, but both spoke little English, did not do well with flying lessons, and eventually served as "muscle" hijackers.[105][106]
In late 1999, a group of men from Hamburg, Germany arrived in Afghanistan, including Mohamed Atta, Marwan al-Shehhi, Ziad Jarrah, and Ramzi Binalshibh.[107] Bin Laden selected these men for the plot, as they were educated, could speak English, and had experience living in the west.

So TAE, unless your definition of "participation" means he wasn't actually ON one of the planes, then the rest of your assertions are utterly false. He was one of the planners, he ruled on target selection for the attack, he provided money and he met with some of the attackers prior to the 9/11 attack. You may also want to watch the video tape of him watching the attack take place. You know, the one where he tells his followers who were cheering after the first plane struck to be patient, more was yet to come.
It's incredible the amount of information you distort or simply make up.

[Booth]

Originally Posted by mj2749

I just spent the last 3 days this week riding around in a soft skin (unarmored) Land Cruiser in Kunar province, 7.5 miles from the Pakistan border.

I'm sure the military appreciates you divulging this information on a silly hooker message board. Aren't there rules against that?

[Booth]

Meanwhile, more stories in the news this morning about Americans being ambushed and killed in this area. You still with us mj?

[mj2749]

Well Mr. Booth, I didn't divulge it until I had left the province so no, there's no rules against that. It would have been bad form to write where I was going before I got there, not after I've returned already. Secondly, I'm not IN the military. 3rd, it's no secret that we have forces there since the U.S. military bases have huge military signs painted with their unit designation. I think it's safe to say the bad guys know we're in the Province.

[mj2749]

Originally Posted by Booth

Meanwhile, more stories in the news this morning about Americans being ambushed and killed in this area. You still with us mj?

Mr. Booth can you PM me with the link to that information? I have not heard of any American being killed in Kunar province this past week. Thanks.

[Booth]

I lean towards not believing a word you've said regarding your location but prefer to error on the side of caution so I choose not to engage in personal messages with someone claiming to be in a war zone. Nothing personal but I like to stay safe too.

[mj2749]

No hard feelings Mr. Booth. You're free to believe what you wish. My FB page pretty much chronicles where I've been the last 6 years, people that know me, family and friends know where I am and what I do. I agree with you, this certainly forum certainly isn't the place to try and convince people of anything. It's simply an exchange of views and ideas. Some I'm passionate about, some I simply enjoy following along and reading without commenting. I wish you a pleasant weekend.

[theaustinescorts]

Unfortunately the 9-11 Comission Report which you cite had as much documentation for their false claims as the Bush administration had for the case that there were WMDs in Iraq [in other words no real documentation].

Among real scholars and intelligence analysts it is well known that Khalid Shayek Mohammed was one of the group that attacked the WTC in 1993, and that same group staged the 9-11 attack, not Osama bin-Ladin.

Osama bin-Ladin should have been captured, tried and executed for his role in attacking the Embassies in Africa in 1998. Instead Bill Clinton [a feckless politician IMHO] let the CIA handle it as a covert op and they bungled his assassination over and over again.

These events are criminal matters and should be left in the field of law enforcement and the courts. Our adversaries in these matters are small groups, not nations or governments.

If we let the FBI do it's job there never would have been a 9-11 attack and Osama bin-Ladin would be dead in a US gas chamber.

Instead we've unleased the military and covert ops community, and everything they've done has been counter-productive. We've spent over a trillion dollars and are right back where we started.

Hoo-rah.

ps - the closest account to the truth about these issues is in the various books by Peter Lance.

The best account of the Taliban war and surrender in 2002 is by Robert Young Pelton. No other journalist was there.

[mj2749]

LOL, of course TAE, I'm sure books by Peter Lance are much more factually correct than the thousands of documents provided by the various U.S. intelligence agencies.
I'm 100% done with this debate. I have 5 days left in-country before I get to come home to Austin for 45 days of glorious vacation time. The last thing I want to do is debate back and forth about this war with someone that's not here, that hasn't been anywhere NEAR this country in the past 30 years but professes to know the "real truth" because he's read books by Peter Lance. Good luck my friend. It's been fun.
Enjoy your weekend. I have now officially entered the no stress get ready for vacation zone!

[theaustinescorts]

Actually I served between 1983 and 1985 in Pakistan during the insurgency against the Soviets. I was in training for two years in graduate school in preparation.

As for the state of the current US effort there everyone should see "The Pat Tillman Story" which is showing at the Arbor Cinema.

Last week of course the Pakistanis closed the Kyber Pass to all US supply traffic so there is a line of trucks waiting to get in, and this morning the Talibs attacked the trucks. The charade of an alliance between the US and Pakistan is finally showing it's strains.

If you think this situation is worth one more American soldier's life I want to hear why? I would just like to hear some arguments rather than accusations. I would prefer to hear the evidence rather than passion-filled insults.

I've already cited the arguments of Howard Hart and other officers who served there who favor withdrawl. Your assertion that everyone who disagrees with you is uninformed, or lacks personal knowledge you possess is, well, untrue as well as disingenuous.

Woodward's book just released tells the real story as what the military's agenda is - they've lost buddies and will make up any argument to keep from surrendering the field. They think it's a competition, a game, and they don't want to lose. They made the same mistake in Vietnam. While the intelligence community was solidly opposed to further escalation, the military kept ramping things up because they'd lost buddies there. But no amount of military effort could win because the more people we killed the more the people of the country hated us. The more we tried the worse it got - not better.

When I started over there in 1983 I was convinced that what we were doing was noble, but as the months went on and I learned more about the situation I grew more and more disgusted until in December 1985 when I went home for Christmas I phoned in my resignation.

Nothing there has changed since.

[Sir Hardin Thicke]

No. I don't want a Mosque at Ground Zero. Move it to Brooklyn where the other mosques are located.