The glory days of the HDH are over.

[woodyboyd]

It has been interesting to see the forum morph from what it was on ASPD eight or nine years ago. Interestingly, the whole moral issue of prostitution has pretty much gone away. Sex for money is an accepted reality in our society now. Also, compared to many of the businessmen in companies like Goldman Sachs, BP, and Toyota, escorts have the moral high ground.

The other aspect that the old forum had in abundance that this one lacked was the nonstop no piece of ass is worth $$$ discussions, and I think it is worth looking back at this in term of an economic rather than right or wrong issue.

I have been in the hobby on and off since the late 80s and in the pre-internet days if anyone told me that you got what you paid for with an escort then I would have laughed my head off. It was totally hit or miss.

Then the internet came along and with it, you could compare notes with fellow hobbyists and with better information came a more rational pricing structure. However, despite being more rational, some people bought into it and decided it was totally rational, which was certainly not the case.

One provider was charging $20,000+ for a day (or a weekend). Obviously, some thought if she charges the most that she was the best, but her reviews were filled with men basically saying she wasn’t that great. In fact, her average score on TER was an underwhelming 7. Some providers like Morgan Ashley, who posted on the HDH ASPD forum, charged less and had considerably better reviews.

That raises the question though: in the internet era, was the highest priced piece of ass worth it? If you look at this as a simple transaction of money for sex, the answer was not just no, it was hell no. The ultimate bargain destination for cheap, Caucasian ass is actually Paraguay. In that land locked South American nation, I had one of the best sexual encounters of my life for a whopping $20. In fact, only one American woman was even in my top five for most of the decade of the 2000s.

But what if you limited it to the total experience and not just the sex (it’s not as emotionally fulfilling having sex with someone where communication is a problem) and geographically limit the encounter to the American market? Maybe it’s not 100% accurate to say this, but I think given the information that was available, you generally got what you paid for.

In late 2008, the U.S. then entered the Great Recession. From 2000 to 2008, it was hog heaven for providers. The most desirable women are typically in their twenties, and people were not having many children from 1973 to 1983 because of the economy in those years. So the supply of women was way down.

On the other hand, the stock market boom left a number of men with a huge pile of cash, and many of these men were in their 40s entering their mid life crises. The demand for women was particularly high, and the supply of women was low. That meant women had considerably pricing power.

However, all that has now changed. The Great Recession didn’t just hit men hard. It hit rich men excessively hard, and these men got older. The range of male baby boomers today is age 47 to 64 today. The range was 37 to 54 in 2000. Today, these men have on average less sexual desire and less money.

On the female front, the echo boom is now in place. The highest birth year in the 80s was 1987, which means there is a much bigger supply of women available in their 20s now, particularly the early 20s. Jobs are particularly hard to come by as well. I have read that only one in four current college graduates is getting hired now.

Bottom line is the supply of women has exploded while the demand from men is way, way down as is their wealth. The pendulum has swung.

And it has shown in my hobby life. In the past two years, I have bedded a ballerina who went to Juilliard, a gymnast ranked number one in the country , a model who shortly worked for Ford (modeling), a college cheerleader who will soon be a lawyer, and a track star. Ironically, none of the encounters was for less than three hours and the most I paid was $600.

On a side note, every woman that I mentioned above had the chance to be great and was somehow sidelined. The Juilliard girl had to move from NY bc of a divorce. The gymnast blew out her ACL. The cheerleader left school because she partied too much. The Ford model left because of a pregnancy, and the track star quit because of an abusive coach.

Interestingly, I have found the women who almost made it to be far more hungry and eager to perform than the women who did. I had a Penthouse Pet who was a horribly selfish lover. A Playboy playmate (not on the cover here but abroad) could not even put a condom on. And Serenity, a former hot XXX star, gave me the lamest lap dance of my life. She wanted $750 for a covered BJ and sex was “in the thousands”. Thankfully, I passed on that.

With the added supply of women, I have been finding gold in my back yard for now. The other intriguing part of the supply equation has been the explosion of a semi-legal form of prostitution, i.e. the sugar baby.

What got me started on this post was the cartoon showing a man begging for non-sexual companionship from a woman. I never understood why my other hobbyists paid for having dinner with a provider. Maybe I am in position unlike other men but I can eat at the best restaurants on someone else’s dime and have extremely attractive women in sales buy me dinner and fawn over me all night (not sexually of course). In fact, they would often include a type of gift bag for me.

However, with the sugar baby arrangement, dinner is included. In fact with one of my babies, I put her on the shelf for three weeks and when she asked what was wrong, I said that she was acting too much like a provider bc of upselling, comparing me to other guys, and not allowing MSOG. She turned about five shades of red and did me right in a big way that night.

So this psuedo legal arrangement has increased the supply of women even more than ever before. Many women seem to like being sugar babies because they don’t have to be obsessed with screening; it is semi-legal; they get much more control over selecting which men they like; they get a more consistent (but often smaller) amount of income. It is more work to get a sugar baby than a provider, but it can be a richer experience.

I remember one hobbyist saying how much fun he had with Morgan Ashley for one week. The cost on Ms. Ashley’s site for a week was $30,000. As of today, that amount would get you a minimum weekly encounter with a gorgeous, sexually skilled sugar baby for anywhere from six months to two years.

I think we have entered a new era: the HDH is now an endangered species.

[woodyboyd]

And just to prove the point, see the link: http://www.minyanville.com/dailyfeed...try-to-suffer/

[Clerkenwell]

Originally Posted by woodyboyd

I think we have entered a new era: the HDH is now an endangered species.

Perhaps, but after this post you certainly are.

Clever analysis backed up by experiment, you are the Kotlikoff of inter-generational compensated sexual congress. I am impressed.

[charlestudor2005]

Originally Posted by woodyboyd

That raises the question though: in the internet era, was the highest priced piece of ass worth it? If you look at this as a simple transaction of money for sex, the answer was not just no, it was hell no. I agree: it depends entirely upon the experience you want: if it's just a mere piece of ass, the cheapest may be the best; if it's multi-hour, then you might put different parameters on your search; and if you want a LT relationship (SB or not) then you will want to use entirely different search parameters. But nevertheless, if you want to establish a relationship with a new provider, now may be the best time because they general continue to give you the introduction rate. But in the end, for the most part, I don't think the price point is worth it.

The other intriguing part of the supply equation has been the explosion of a semi-legal form of prostitution, i.e. the sugar baby.

However, with the sugar baby arrangement, dinner is included. In fact with one of my babies, I put her on the shelf for three weeks and when she asked what was wrong, I said that she was acting too much like a provider bc of upselling, comparing me to other guys, and not allowing MSOG. She turned about five shades of red and did me right in a big way that night.

The cost on Ms. Ashley’s site for a week was $30,000. As of today, that amount would get you a minimum weekly encounter with a gorgeous, sexually skilled sugar baby for anywhere from six months to two years.

I think we have entered a new era: the HDH is now an endangered species.

A large part of your post deals with a situation that most of us could not easily explore: that of the SB. Those of us with SOs just can't go there for a number of reasons. Some of us can't even explore LT. In my case, I only hobby on the road; never in my own community.

Query: just where did you find ladies like the gymnast, cheerleader, etc.? Do they post on places like BP? Do they post providing ads? Is there an SB board where they tend to go?

[Katy Alexander]

Finally a no piece of ass is worth more than X amount thread. I have not seen one of these in ages.

[nevergaveitathought]

Originally Posted by charlestudor2005

Query: just where did you find ladies like the gymnast, cheerleader, etc.? Do they post on places like BP? Do they post providing ads? Is there an SB board where they tend to go?

fearful of missing out? lol

[KisserSoze]

Quite an interesting post from a dumb bartender at 2 in the morning. Cheers, Woody.
Seriously, thanks for sharing your experiences and long tem perspective.

[atlcomedy]

Woody,

Thoughtful post. I don't know how much of an impact some of the population cohort stuff actually had on supply/demand but it is worth a thought.

I think the recession has had a much bigger impact. The number of guys that can and will drop a couple of grand plus on a good time is way down whether it is an escort or otherwise. Let's face it you are always going to have the uber-rich that can afford crazy money like $25k+ for a date but the guys that could pop a couple of $K on a date (think SPitzer agency type business) is way down. The uber-rich were great for legendary stories of excess but it was that next group below that drove the business.

Add to that the well-documented "internet effect" that group that was paying a couple of $k don't need to as there are a number of perfectly good subsititutes at a lower price point and we may well have seen the end of the "Golden Age of the HDH"

That said, turning to HDH of ASPD or this forum here, I have seen over the years it become populated much more by folks that openly acknowledge they are not a true HDH (self described, I'm not trying to define an HDH) or client of true HDH's. But I don't think that has much if anything to do with the decline in the broader HDH market.

I attribute it to an increasingly open, accepting forum that has welcomed non-HDH players. I think years ago if a lady charged $200-300/hour she may have lurked at the discussion, found it interesting, but was too intimidated to post. As others have joined in those perceived exclusivity barriers have fallen. Add to that it is consistently one of the better general interest forums out there. ASPD & eccie are both very limited in their national reach, so this is one of the better options for those in less developed regions.

[charlestudor2005]

Originally Posted by Becky

Finally a no piece of ass is worth more than X amount thread. I have not seen one of these in ages.

Some ladies charge more than others...wives, for instance.

OTOH, I would suggest that some hobbyists and providers engage in an "over-under" negotiation. The provider PMs the hobbyist (through a third party, of course) the lowest amount for which she will see him (not her lowest rate, but the lowest amount), and the hobbyist does the same, but uses the highest amount he will pay. Once the statements are in, it is understood that the parties will split the difference and agree to that figure as the donation amount. Could make for some interesting stuff.

It would probably work especially well where the provider is willing, but doesn't want to lower her rates.

[..]

Originally Posted by Becky

Finally a no piece of ass is worth more than X amount thread. I have not seen one of these in ages.

LOL! Word!

[..]

Originally Posted by charlestudor2005

OTOH, I would suggest that some hobbyists and providers engage in an "over-under" negotiation. The provider PMs the hobbyist (through a third party, of course) the lowest amount for which she will see him (not her lowest rate, but the lowest amount), and the hobbyist does the same, but uses the highest amount he will pay. Once the statements are in, it is understood that the parties will split the difference and agree to that figure as the donation amount. Could make for some interesting stuff.

I doubt that e.g. http://www.mikahoffman.com finds this "interesting", Charles.

[charlestudor2005]

Originally Posted by ..

I doubt that e.g. http://www.mikahoffman.com finds this "interesting", Charles.

Well, every lady says her rates are not negotiable. But we all know they are subject to change IF the lady decides to change them. Mika doesn't have the highest rates I've ever seen (nor is she attractive to me...her looks are too severe and she is too tall) by far. But she does say they aren't open to negotiation. The over-under dynamic allows a meeting through a device where neither admits they went outside their pricepoint.

[Ansley]

What's with this over-under? For you it's a hobby. For a lot us it's a living. Stop trying to play games with our rates.

[charlestudor2005]

Originally Posted by Ansley

What's with this over-under? For you it's a hobby. For a lot us it's a living. Stop trying to play games with our rates.

I've never played games with rates with anyone!! I'm I'm quite proud of that fact. I have always paid the requested donation despite whether or not I've been shorted on time or attention. I have never suggested anything less with any lady I ever saw. To suggest otherwise sheds a false light on my post. The suggestion was a reflection of the economic times. The system works quite well in other realms as a way of doing business.

However, in the end, if it is not going to work in the hobby, it's not going to work.

Yes, for me it may be a hobby, but it is an expensive one. I've had other hobbies that I haven't spent anywhere near the money I've spent in this hobby. And it is up to me to determine how much I'm willing to spend in this hobby. And it is up to you to try and wheedle more out of me. That's the nature of the beast.

And, yes, it may be a living for you, but it's your choice. And when the economy sucks, it may be time to get creative. It was just a "creative" suggestion. No need to take offense. Far be it from me to tell you how to run your "business." I can never judge the business from your side, just from mine.

And think about this: the lady sets the rate. And it is normally in the upper limits of what she thinks she is worth in the market. I've seen some rates that I immediately thought, "Any guy who would pay that would be out of his mind." While other times I've thought, "I can't believe there isn't a line outside her door." But that's just my opinion to myself. It's a good thing there isn't a thread where you vote on whether a provider is charging too much or too little. There wouldn't be enough bandwidth for that thread.

[..]

Originally Posted by charlestudor2005

And when the economy sucks, it may be time to get creative. It was just a "creative" suggestion.

BTW, your phrase "creative suggestion" reminds me of a certain bosnian comedy episode which is very popular in ex Yugoslavia.