Do you care about the Greek bailout?

[john_galt]

Greece's economy is in shambles and is demanding that Europe (and the US) subsidize their predicament. What say you? Greece is looking for billions to pay off their union bills but do not want to change the way they do business which is what got them here. In Greece 1/3 of the people work for the government. You can retire at 53 years old with close to full pay. A Greek worker gets at least 6 weeks of paid vacation every year. If a Greek worker dies after retirement, their spouse collects a full check until their death. If there are children, they get the full check even if the children may be 30 years old. The unions refuse to negotiate and are, in fact, leading the increasingly more violent protest in the streets.
I view like this; you are the most successful member of a large extended family. You are having your own financial crisis but your cousin shows up at your doorstep looking for help. You find out that he has been living way above his means and has gambling debts, and obligations to many debtors. He absolutely refuses to reorder his or his families lifestyle. He will not get rid of any cars, he will not cancel vacations to fun spots around the world, he will not find his children a less expension school, he will not consider getting rid of the vacation homes but he is looking for about 3 years of his pay from you. The understood point is that you will never see the money again. It is gone but he continues to live it up for about 3 more years when he comes knocking again.
Do you think that we should demand changes BEFORE any bailout? This is relevant as California will soon be asking for money from all American citizens without changing their ways.

[dirty dog]

From what I understand we are already committed to 80 million, amazing how quite that was kept in the media. Unfortunately while I agree with your sentiment I think its bad practice to get involved in the operation of other countrys just because we loan/give them money. It sets a bad precident. Imagine if China all of a sudden said that they wanted us to change how we operate as a country if they give us money. It would be a bad move and would cause enormous resentment. To do so to Greece would cause more anger and resentment towards the US than not giving them any money. As for the cousin, he would probably be showed the door when I heard the words, "need money". So to answer your question, no we should not get involved with demanding change, I believe its time to stop giving anyone money and that includes allies.

[Omahan]

There was an argument about this on Fox last night. Neither would let the other finish their thoughts so I'm not sure of the facts. What I think the British guy was saying is that although we only agreed to a fixed amount (probably the 80 billion mentioned above) we are advancing the money for the other contributors who are short. If true, I don't like that.

[lacrew_2000]

Looking at Greece's debt to GDP (115%) and annual deficit to GDP (13%)....and comparing it to our own (100%) and (21%)....I'd say this should be a wake up call.

Are we currently becoming more like Greece or less like Greece?

Now the people of Greece are pissed, because of austerity measures. No more full pensions at age 53. The government unions are rioting because of a 15% cut in pay. They estimate their VAT will go to 26%.

Apparently, promising everybody everything all the time doesn't work....and I think we should look hard at ourselves...we are going down that road, and it doesn't have a happy ending.

[john_galt]

I guess not making the loan would, in a way, force the Greeks to change their way of doing business just so they can come back and ask again.

I'm sure that everyone knows that the Obama administration wants to start a VAT in the US. Of course it would be very small... at first. The SSI tax was only 1% when it started and now it is 12.4%.

I also know that Glenn Beck (yes, GB but it is not his words) has had economic experts on his show that say we may have to cut services (SSI, Medicare, Unemployment, etc.) by 50 % in order to survive. I suppose that would include all of those fat, government pensions.

[KCJoe]

All I can say is that if the Greeks want a bailout from other countries, they better be ready to take it up the ass themselves.

[lacrew_2000]

In the long run, I don't see pensions being cut. I do see the currency being inflated to reduce the value of these pensions....and people's life savings will be collateral damage.

I'm starting to see the VAT as a slight of hand. The 'bipartisan commission' looking at deficit reduction is supposed to come out with their recommendations in December, after the Dems will have lost a supermajority in the senate. They may recommend a VAT, but it won't pass....but the rope a dope will be that congress accepts 'more palatable' taxes:

1. Let Bush tax cuts expire
2. Raise income ceiling on social security taxes (perhaps eliminate ceiling)
3. Recommend retirement age be increased...just to get it out there and get discussion going.
4. Recommend eliminate mortgage interest deduction...again just to get the idea 'in play'
5. Recommend no tax exemption on 401k contributions...another trial balloon.
6. Raise capital gains tax
7. Raise income tax rate on highest earners

Also, we will be told that we have to reduce defense spending to balance the budget. We will dishonestly be told that defense is 'x' percent of the budget, cleverly using only discretionary spending to define the budget.

What do I think should happen:

1. Sure, raise the income ceiling in SS withholdings
2. Sure, raise cap gain rates to equal the highest tax bracket (I know too many people who play shell games with companies to earn zero income but hundreds of thousands in cap gains...taxed at a considerably lower rate).
3. Keep Bush tax cuts
4. Apply any unspent ARRA funds to the general fund immediately, and eliminate ARRA programs.
5. Repeal the healthcare bill
6. Repeal the last energy bill and take cap and trade off the table

If we don't do these things, we will look alot like Greece in just a few years.

[Cheaper2buyit]

this is what everyone wanted a world economy. But the fact is we give billions away every you don't hear about that. Thats what I want the tea party to yell & chant about

[lacrew_2000]

US Foreign aid to other countries is approx $25 billion. I think we've spent more money on one car company in this country. Compared to the last congressional budget, ARRA, Healthcare, its a drop in the bucket.

Hell, we just forked over $50 billion in the EU bailout without blinking.

Foreign aid is worth discussing, but we could eliminate all of it, and it would make no substantial difference in our current situation.

[dirty dog]

"this is what everyone wanted a world economy. But the fact is we give billions away every you don't hear about that. Thats what I want the tea party to yell & chant about "

Careful there Cheaper buddy, not everyone wanted to be a member of the world economy. Personally I kind of favor an isolationist prospective, like we had in the early 1900's. Our economy was self contained, our foriegn policy was self centered which means we only got involved in matters which directly affected the US. We were not the worlds policeman.

Crew your right the amount of money we spend on foriegn aid is only around 25 billion, but thats not counting the hidden costs, the millions we spend to promote peace, the billions we spend aiding natural disasters. I am not a heartless person but christ everytime there is an earthquake, flood, etc. were there using our military for manpower (which costs money), our airforce to delivery supplies, etc etc. Why does it have to be us to pick up the tab all the time. We are just one country on a planet full of them. What do we gain from this help, look at Hati, were down there helping them and the whole time their bad mouthing us. Were rebuilding other countrys but haven't rebuilt new orleans. So when you look at stuff like Heathcare (which I did not and do not agree with) I have to say I would rather we spent the money on this country and our people than on others. With that said, I say fuck Greece, let them fix their own problems, we should not send them a penny, we should eliminate all aid to all countrys, its funnny but I just had an epithany, everyone is beating up on Obama for redistribution of wealth, but isnt that what we are doing as a country with all of aid were giving away. Now if there are any of your fine ladys who would like to explore this greek problem in more detail let me know. Ahhhhh Hawwwwww (channeling Dennis this morning).

[Cheaper2buyit]

you all know what greek means to us on this board lol. I think we give a lot more money when you include arms & all the black list stuff but I could be wrong. anyway i am with dirty on this greece can get greeked.