Why do we Play the way we do? Independent Providers vs Agency Girls vs Dancers that P4P vs Civiliains that P4P vs Sugarbabies

[sixxbach]

Quote:
Originally Posted by sixxbach
and well... how about this ladies..... what about the practice of welcoming a lady to the city and telling her that her rates are too low??? what is the feeling on that?

can i get someone to agree that no one should tell someone to raise their rates, etc b/c one fears to lose biz?


I am from Missouri, show me the facts behind your statement? If you can prove this then I will be behind you. Every lady should be able to establish her own rate. New ladies may start out low to get established but after seeing what others are charging (just have to look at the ads) may change theirs.

Hobbie

hobbie,

I cannot prove it b/c the lady told me after a session. She told me that she rarely looks at anything beyond the ads and did not want to cause trouble. she said her rates were low to attract biz since she is new in austin. unless, she is lying to me. i have no reason to think that. I simply commented that her rate was really good and she went on from there with the mention of two emails welcoming her and commenting that she needed to change the rates, they were too low.

so it can't be proven.... it just came from the source. i doubt she would have made that up

sixx

[TaylorMaiden29]

Originally Posted by sixxbach

Quote:
Originally Posted by sixxbach
and well... how about this ladies..... what about the practice of welcoming a lady to the city and telling her that her rates are too low??? what is the feeling on that?

can i get someone to agree that no one should tell someone to raise their rates, etc b/c one fears to lose biz?


I am from Missouri, show me the facts behind your statement? If you can prove this then I will be behind you. Every lady should be able to establish her own rate. New ladies may start out low to get established but after seeing what others are charging (just have to look at the ads) may change theirs.

Hobbie

hobbie,

I cannot prove it b/c the lady told me after a session. She told me that she rarely looks at anything beyond the ads and did not want to cause trouble. she said her rates were low to attract biz since she is new in austin. unless, she is lying to me. i have no reason to think that. I simply commented that her rate was really good and she went on from there with the mention of two emails welcoming her and commenting that she needed to change the rates, they were too low.

so it can't be proven.... it just came from the source. i doubt she would have made that up

sixx

It can be proven, ask her to forward the emails to you so that you have the proof. It's not about you or her lying, its about the accuser having to bear the burden of proof.



It

[Onceler]

Not sure where to begin or how this will go, but I've always felt information was good, so in that spirit, I'll share. If anyone knows me from my posts, they know I'm neither troll or WK. I'm just behind the screen, but since no one else will give their deeper view or "be named", I'll ascend the limb alone.

I was invited to the attagirls group based on a previous appointment I had made. I accepted the invitation merely as an informational tool for myself. I think the idea behind it is certainly appealing to a hobbyist. It provided a zero cost way for me to be effectively screened to see anyone in the group ( and this next part is key, so pay attention) if I CHOSE to. However, as a member, I was never pressured to book an appointment with anyone. I got no feeling that if I booked outside the group I would be expelled. I also never got the impression that providers in the group were asked to compromise their rates or services in accordance with some accepted criteria. These are MY views on the situation as a hobbyist.

I respect Kosher's viewpoint here, but I think anti-trust comparisons might be a little stretching it. I think anyone who gets a "good client" rate with an ATF, a regular rotation lady, or any other means has little objections to offered discounts. Any discounts which were offered seemed to be up to the provider's discretion to offer them, and were not any different than typical providers discount ads. And as far as I could tell, the ladies participating did not exclude non-members from making appointments with them, but I can't say I know that for sure. Again, this is MY understanding as an impartial but opportunistic observer. Also in full disclosure, I have not made any appointments with any provider when (since?) I was a member, so I can't be accused of being manipulated at this point.

Now I certainly cannot comment reliably on how this affects other provider's view of this. I don't pretend to be aware of how this is perceived, so I am listening and watching and educating myself as posts are made. I've aways been a proponent of a provider to have full authority to set her own rates and rules even if I disagree with those rules. Its encouraging to see women who want to help each other through a screening style process, but perhaps there are lessons learned for the process involved.

I am sure I miss a lot of the story because I don't live in back channels or venture to where the dogs don't run, and frankly I don't care. There will be parties on both sides of this not particularly liking my post, and I accept that. The point is to basically give my impressions as an invited member so maybe everyone is better informed rather than subsist on rumor, as fun as that is for many.

Last thought: Manipulation in this little free-for-all goes both ways. If you allow yourself to be manipulated or coerced, it will just end badly. I hope that the claims of all arguments (price control and free market capitalism) are being read with the correct amount of healthy skepticism from the quiet majority.

Onceler
...whatever you do, do NOT let yourself be manipulated...

[nuglet]

OK, here's another view. Until all of the guys on this board grow a vagina and tits, all of this is nothing but rhetoric. They (the ladies) have something for sale we want to buy.
Who, in their right mind, would suggest to a lady to raise her price? What a pack of whoopla.
When is the last time you told the waiter, "Hey that was a great meal. Can I pay an extra 25%. Or better yet, now that I've eaten, be sure to charge the next diner more than I paid, I won't be back, but if I am, be sure to keep charging me the lower price. Not withstanding the 20% tip I leave the waiter that had NOTHING TO DO with the way the meal was prepared.

What the hell does the waiter deserve a tip for? Being polite. BS! $30-$40 for saving me a walk to the kitchen? HAH

More realistically, if I had a stellar time with a provider for $50 (that's fifty dollars for the dimwitted), damned if I'd want her to raise her rates. I'd keep my mouth shut and book another appointment.
I think these claims of ladies being told to "raise your rate" are BS and I'm calling it.
Here's the scene: a couple gets together for $100 (one hundred) and at the end the guy says,"hey, you're good, you should be more expensive. So she promptly tells the gent, "Okay, you owe me another Fifty."
Not a likely scene. Anymore than: you buy a new vehicle, you like it sooooo much you tell the dealer he shouldn't have sold it to you for any less that the full sticker price and he's fool for making you a deal.. yeah right.
As for WK's, before I let loose on the BS about fellas ragging on them (the WK's), I want someone, NOT A LADY, to tell me exactly what, in your opinion, is a WK?
I want it clearly defined because without WK's you can forget Friends, Girlfriends, Wives, kids, jobs, etc.
I take it to mean "one that defends, without questioning, another" .... If you agree to that definition, the next post will really ruffle some feathers.. so what!

[KosherCowboy]

Originally Posted by TaylorMaiden29

Does that mean that girls who give P411 discounts or ECCIE discounts are playing dirty?

Taylor, thank you for replying w/o shooting the messenger.

In answer to your question, not at all, those discounts are available to any member of ECCIE or P411 which is open to the public to join if they so choose.

Providers were left out of ATTA intentionally and the some of the very girls who claim that this was a transition group were some of the same ones who joined ****2 and called it ' a place to hang their coat and hat' so happily; so there was a safe haven to protect the innocent from the storms, tornadoes and hurricanes brought on by the downfall of ASPD. Folks can say ATTA outsiders have no clue but the truth is the information came from the inside.

There is nothing wrong with private hobby or provider groups, the right or wrong lays in the purpose of that particular group. As more ladies post, it seems some of the reasoning behind the ATTA group seems to vary, as I expected it would. I notice one just used the term marketing strategy in a different thread, which implies business profit ( marketing is used to gain business which in turn makes $$) so I am glad it was posted. Marketing has one goal, $$. So we go from ' we needed a place to unite when the mothership crashes' to ' screening' and now ' marketing ploy'; with each former ATTA girl post discrepancies increase. Time is truth serum, stick foot in mouth, etc.

I stand by my post and will add that I wish no ill upon the former ATTA girls as they are a part of the community ( just like the left out girls were). I'm not a bad guy, but am willing to have stones hurled my way, I just believe in honesty, that simple. As to the guys, the discounts are always there, all you have to do is follow the ads or simply ask the girl, in this market and economy most will be more than happy to see a gent who is screened and not going to physically hurt them, rob them, etc.

I think when it comes to business you are a very wise lady and know how to make $$, and I am sure this will carry over to whatever career you may choose when you leave the community in October ( per your sig line) . I wish you nothing but the best and happy trails and the same goes for the former girls in the group. I've seen 8 girls on that list posted in another thread which includes many names of girls on the backchannel lists of who was in the group, I hope that thread is truly a genuine thank you from Sophia who I also find to be a very intelligent lady although I do not see eye to eye with her on this. I personally have never had any issues with any of the ATTA girls giving me a personal reference.

Best of luck and take care, despite my feelings of what went down there were some good girls in that group, some I have seen, others I have simply met in person, deep down we are all on the same team. I may not approve of all ATTA was but I think you have provided much to the community. I stand by my beliefs and ethics, despite what others may say or what stones they will hurl my way.

I'll conclude that just about all in ATTA are good girls, I'm glad to have played with and/or met some of them.

Wishing you the best,

Kosher

[sixxbach]

originally posted by nuglet

I think these claims of ladies being told to "raise your rate" are BS and I'm calling it.


you have always been cool to me. i have no issues with you. no, i have no proof and i will state that again. i was told this by a provider. she offered a really good rate. hell, she could have lied but what motive? in hopes that im going to run and tell everyone? the rate was really low and maybe some dont want some to be charging rates like that b/c men will flock to someone b/c of that price point or men will wait for rates to drop and eventually when no one is PM'ng for a 120 BBBJ for example.

with the kind of work i do, NOTHING surprises me. i dont think someone telling or asking someone to raise their rate to match what the rest of the market is charging is that far fetched. and im not implying that anyone from ATTA or whatnot did that.

[TaylorMaiden29]

Originally Posted by KosherCowboy

Taylor, thank you for replying w/o shooting the messenger.

You are welcome, I know you aren't trying to be abraisive or hurtful so I took care to not take your posts personally.

Originally Posted by KosherCowboy

In answer to your question, not at all, those discounts are available to any member of ECCIE or P411 which is open to the public to join if they so choose.

Not exactly, on P411 you must have passed screening, through other providers or through employment verification. We hadn't made it to the first round of invites to the ladies, but it was through nominations and vouches by atta girls and guys. That was how gentlemen were able to join as well, through a personal vouch.

Originally Posted by KosherCowboy

Providers were left out of ATTA intentionally

there was never a first round of invites and it doesn't look like we will never see that as the group is disbanding, which really sucks now.

Originally Posted by kosher

and the some of the very girls who claim that this was a transition group were some of the same ones who joined ****2 and called it ' a place to hang their coat and hat' so happily; so there was a safe haven to protect the innocent from the storms, tornadoes and hurricanes brought on by the downfall of ASPD. Folks can say ATTA outsiders have no clue but the truth is the information came from the inside.

If that were true, you all would have more accurate information to the why's and how's.

Originally Posted by Kosher

There is nothing wrong with private hobby or provider groups, the right or wrong lays in the purpose of that particular group. As more ladies post, it seems some of the reasoning behind the ATTA group seems to vary, as I expected it would. I notice one just used the term marketing strategy in a different thread, which implies business profit ( marketing is used to gain business which in turn makes $$) so I am glad it was posted. Marketing has one goal, $$. So we go from ' we needed a place to unite when the mothership crashes' to ' screening' and now ' marketing ploy'; with each former ATTA girl post discrepancies increase. Time is truth serum, stick foot in mouth, etc.

There were several brilliant reasons that it was a good idea, it's true.

Originally Posted by Kosher

I think when it comes to business you are a very wise lady and know how to make $$, and I am sure this will carry over to whatever career you may choose when you leave the community in October ( per your sig line) . I wish you nothing but the best and happy trails and the same goes for the former girls in the group. I've seen 8 girls on that list posted in another thread which includes many names of girls on the backchannel lists of who was in the group, I hope that thread is truly a genuine thank you from Sophia who I also find to be a very intelligent lady although I do not see eye to eye with her on this. I personally have never had any issues with any of the ATTA girls giving me a personal reference.

Best of luck and take care, despite my feelings of what went down there were some good girls in that group, some I have seen, others I have simply met in person, deep down we are all on the same team. I may not approve of all ATTA was but I think you have provided much to the community. I stand by my beliefs and ethics, despite what others may say or what stones they will hurl my way.

I'll conclude that just about all in ATTA are good girls, I'm glad to have played with and/or met some of them.

Wishing you the best,

Kosher

Thank you, I was hoping you would be nice to me in the end.

[rekcaSxT]

Originally Posted by Sensual Sophia

I DON'T KNOW WHY PEOPLE ON EITHER SIDE INSIST ON DISCUSSING RATES SO MUCH.

I agree with you here. I will bitch about rates in the locker room, I think it is in bad taste to do it here in COED.

I have never complained about rates in COED, and I have never brought up "price fixing" (which I would still like a definition for) I know what price fixing is when it comes to corporations, but with independant contractors I can not figure it out. Without a union or organized crime I don't know how someone "fixes prices". So anyone who can explain this to me, I would appreciate.

[Sensual Sophia]

Originally Posted by rekcaSxT

I know what price fixing is when it comes to corporations, but with independant contractors I can not figure it out. Without a union or organized crime I don't know how someone "fixes prices". So anyone who can explain this to me, I would appreciate.

I took it to mean something similar to a cartel like OPEC where members collude to inflate prices. Or like a union of independent contractors where people agree to not work below a certain price -- such as what happened a few years ago with day labor in Austin -- they all got together and formed an unofficial union where they refused to work below $9 an hour.

Early in this thread Whispers said he would bet that there are threads in the private ladies area asking ladies to hold rates between $250 and $300 per hour. This is pretty funny considering that most Austin ladies now charge below $250 an hour, especially if you read the specials in the ad section. But still, I have never seen such a thread. Even if a group got together and decided to form a union, cartel, or whatever you want to call it that wouldn't go below a certain price, there is no way they could get the 500 or so providers in Austin all on the same page. Just like with OPEC, some would choose to go below that rate.

We can't fix prices because we are all different. We aren't an indistinguishable commodity like oil where prices can be manipulated, or like unskilled labor where one workers' skills and attributes are similar to another's. We are differentiated products. We each have our own brand and set the prices accordingly.

[rekcaSxT]

Yeah, like I said it would take a union or something to organize such a thing. I get it, I wasn't putting 2 and 2 together.

[KosherCowboy]

Originally Posted by TaylorMaiden29

Thank you, I was hoping you would be nice to me in the end.

I have no reason not to be nice to you, you have never wronged me personally or posted anything in a public forum that I read negatively of me and all exchanges we have had ( although very few in number) have been ' polite and civil.'

I appreciate that you took the time to reply to each of my thoughts. I don't agree with your replies in full 100% but I respect them 100%. I think the best and fairest thing is simply to respectfully agree to disagree and start to wrap this whole thing up. I think those in the community at this point have read enough to decide for themselves what is factual and what is BS and most likely made up their minds many posts back.

I've said all I needed to about ATTA and feel no need to go back and forth. That poor dead horse is ready to rest in peace, time to leave it alone I think. Now that things are out in the open maybe much of the animosity on this board will die down.

Maybe it is time to be a happy family of misfits even if we have to disagree at times. White Knights and non-White Knights and Pink Knights and non-Pink Knights have no choice but to share the same island and fish in the same sea , so we may as well just accept it.

Bon soir

[Smokin Joe]

I'm not sure about all the nonsense posted in this and other similar threads but I do know Kosher's a good guy.

[rekcaSxT]

Originally Posted by Smokin Joe

I'm not sure about all the nonsense posted in this and other similar threads but I do know Kosher's a good guy.

+1

[Guest062610]

This just seems like much ado about nothing and two different issues...IMO

So a few girls formed a back channel social group to help keep business going at what appeared to be the end of a era. A group of ladies that trusted each other enough to be willing to share information about gents they've previously screened to help the other ladies they chose to share the information with.

There have been private social groups around for years, they are always by invitation only. So what's the big deal?

What if a guy started a thread saying he felt "left out" because he wasn't included on the bbfs email list that's going around Austin? What if he called the people that control that list a bunch of pimps or handlers or WK's or lapdogs? What about the list that's going around another major city with a names of RMT's that offer extra's? What about the private group of guys that meet at the strip club and share information with only a chosen, hand picked few people about regarding strippers and waitresses to provide extra's? I could go on and on and on...the point is that these groups have been around for a long time and will continue to be around and will continue to be private and exclusive.

As far traveling ladies having a hard time getting screening and having a high NC/NS ratio in Austin, from what I've heard over the last year or so I believe it is true. However it's been going on much longer than the current social group you are accusing of doing it. Until someone gives me hard evidence to link to the two, it will continue to be two separate situations and the appearance of another agenda.

LAP

[RALPHEY BOY]

What if a guy started a thread saying he felt "left out" because he wasn't included on the bbfs email list that's going around Austin?

that would be terrible thing...

I could not resist...