Government Assassination - the Austin connection

[gnadfly]

Originally Posted by DTorchia

I certainly don't have a dog in this fight. It seems funny though how labels get thrown around on both sides. During the entire Bush presidency, it seemed like anyone who leaned toward the conservative side was a "far right wing" this or that. Now, when the man that the liberal side elected on the promises of ending two wars, closing Guantanamo and focusing on the economy at home starts a 3rd and blatantly unnecessary war, without any excuse at all, well, then people still want to drag out the "neo-con" label and talk about 2003. I guess that beats facing the reality that the man they elected 5 years later is now blatantly as much of a "war mongerer" (another label the left tried to pin on Bush) as the previous President they claim to have hated so much.
Interesting times!

DTorchia, no worries. BinTex has a bad memory and lives in the past - a frightening combination.

Again BinTex, the adults are talking here. Please keep on topic if you must post.

[Nightcrawler29]

Well it seems people keep thinking that it is all about Republicans or Democrats....and now Tea partyers. The policies are the same underneath, so all of them are useless. If we are going into Libya to help these people, then why not to Yemen, Syria, Jordan, and others? Could it be because there's no oil or resources we could use? And if we are using bombs to help these people, then what are we going to do after we are done bombing? The people of Libya were protesting about their living conditions and the unemployment in their country.. I mean, are we going to give them jobs??...we didn't seem to make things better in Irak and Afghanistan.... they are probably even worse now than they where before! And then who are we to tell them how to live? We can't even take care of our unemployment issues and other serious problems here!

And then how can we agree to pay for this war when so much funding is being cut in other social programs in the US..... lets see, education, medicare, social security, you name it! We are about to lay off 300 teachers in Round Rock. But at the same time, we are spending billions of dollars on planes, missiles, bombs, moving ships from here to there, and all those things the military does that we are not told about, but certainly cost a fortune. Now why does that make sense, I don't know, but we seem too stupid to figure it out and do our own protesting here in the US.

[Guest040616]

Originally Posted by gnadfly

a frightening combination.

Gnadfly, don't be freightened!

Now seems to be as good of a time as any for you to finally confront those childhood fears. You have neglected them long enough!

If it appears to be too much for you to handle on your own, perhaps you should seek professional psychiatric assistance? I feel quite certain that if you look hard enough, you will be able to find a 'shrink' experienced in dealing with adolescents who are afraid the big, bad boogie man is always "out to get 'em!" Just follow the link! www.bigbadboogieman.com

Remember, seek and ye shall find!

I have now performed my good deed for the day!

[Guest040616]

Originally Posted by Nightcrawler29

We are about to lay off 300 teachers in Round Rock. But at the same time, we are spending billions of dollars on planes, missiles, bombs, moving ships from here to there, and all those things the military does that we are not told about, but certainly cost a fortune. Now why does that make sense, I don't know, but we seem too stupid to figure it out and do our own protesting here in the US.

On the surface I am inclined to agree. Indeed, it is a travesty the State of Texas is considering laying off as many as 100,000 school district employees statewide.

However, the funding mechanism is drawn from entirely different sources. The "billions of dollars" being spent on "planes, missiles, bombs," etc. is taxpayer money drawn from Federal Income Taxes (IRS). The taxpayer money used to pay teachers salaries and benefits in Texas is drawn from revenue collected by State and Local Government!

[DRorchia]

Originally Posted by Nightcrawler29

Well it seems people keep thinking that it is all about Republicans or Democrats....and now Tea partyers. The policies are the same underneath, so all of them are useless. If we are going into Libya to help these people, then why not to Yemen, Syria, Jordan, and others? Could it be because there's no oil or resources we could use? And if we are using bombs to help these people, then what are we going to do after we are done bombing? The people of Libya were protesting about their living conditions and the unemployment in their country.. I mean, are we going to give them jobs??...we didn't seem to make things better in Irak and Afghanistan.... they are probably even worse now than they where before! And then who are we to tell them how to live? We can't even take care of our unemployment issues and other serious problems here!

And then how can we agree to pay for this war when so much funding is being cut in other social programs in the US..... lets see, education, medicare, social security, you name it! We are about to lay off 300 teachers in Round Rock. But at the same time, we are spending billions of dollars on planes, missiles, bombs, moving ships from here to there, and all those things the military does that we are not told about, but certainly cost a fortune. Now why does that make sense, I don't know, but we seem too stupid to figure it out and do our own protesting here in the US.

You're absolutely right in the points you make Nightcrawler. The reason I replied to Big Tex is because in my opinion the insanity in our government has now been proven to be entrenched on both sides of the aisle. You can try to justify that our military involvement in Libya is more justified, will be shorter in duration or anything else in comparison to Iraq. However, this does not negate one simple fact. We are being lied to by our Government. Every bit as much now under Obama then we were under Bush. There is no difference. Besides the economic reasons you mention Nightcrawler, the fact is we have no business interfering in Libya at all. If we are there to "protect the protesters from slaughter" then why have we not launched attacks against Syria? They have already killed hundreds of protesters there, arrested many more and have shown in the past that they (the Syrian Government) have no qualms in killing thousands of their own people to stay in power. What makes the protesters lives in Syria cheaper than in Libya? Why not help the thousands of victims in the Sudan? Women there have been getting raped, killed mutilated for the last 10 years. No one is lifting a finger or sending our military to help them. What about the Congo? The list goes on folks. This is why it's obvious that we are being lied to. Does it matter whether the lie involves WMD's or Obama's current lies to "protect the protesters"? Since when have you EVER seen France and Germany be EAGER to commit militarily in the Middle East? Yet suddenly they can't wait to scramble their jets? That should be a CLUE! Of course I'm sure it's only a coincidence that 85% of Libya's oil exports have been to Europe. Since Big Tex brought up 2003, how many thousands of liberals back then accused Bush of being in the Oil companies pockets and only using WMD's as an excuse to grab more Oil? Yet not a single liberal has uttered any such theory about why we're bombing Libya. The record however shows that we won't help people under the very same government crack down in Syria than what took place in Libya and again, coincidentally I'm sure, Syria provides little to no oil to the U.S. or to Europe.
I'm not saying oil does or does not play a part in our intervention in Libya, I'm simply pointing out that it was a favorite rallying cry of liberals during the entire Bush administration and now those same people are silent.
If Saudi Arabia (our #2 oil exporter to the U.S.) starts shooting protesters, will Obama launch jets there? Lord knows the Wahabbis there have been a huge reason for the radical forms of Islam that was exported around the Middle East.
Lies are lies and Obama has proven as adept at telling them than any previous President you care to name. The only difference is that there is a silent complicity by the liberals that allow the lies to continue.
It's time Americans as a whole wake up and demanded a new Government. This one is showing to be broken beyond repair.

[Guest040616]

Originally Posted by DTorchia

We are being lied to by our Government. Every bit as much now under Obama then we were under Bush. There is no difference. .

With all due respect, you seem to be misinterpreting my intentions! I am not speaking for or against the Obama Administration's current involvement in Libya. I will make that decision when more information becomes available. I feel quite certain the Administration's response to Khadafi will eventually pass or fail in the eyes of the American public in the days, weeks, months and possbily years to come. Need I remind you that it took several years before the American public finally accepted the fact that they were seriously misled by the Bush Administration during the spring of 2003!

By contrast, the Obama Administrations involvement in Libya began less than two weeks ago! Presently, I find yours to be a losing argument. Perhaps new information will be brought forward in the not too distant future that will change my mind, one way or the other. Thus far, I have heard of no public statement by the current Administration that could possibly rise to the level of innacuracy expressed by the Bush Administration as it relates to WMD's in Iraq.

But who knows what the future might bring?

[DRorchia]

Originally Posted by bigtex

With all due respect, yours is a losing argument. But be patient, who knows what tomorrow might bring? Thus far, I have heard of no public statement by the current Administration that could possibly rise to the level of innacuracy expressed by the Bush Administration as it relates to WMD's.

Don't misunderstand my intentions, I am not speaking in favor or against the Obama Administration's current involvement in Libya. I will make that decision when more information becomes available. I feel quite certain the Administration's response to Khadafi will eventually pass or fail in the eyes of the American public in the days, weeks, months and possbily years to come.

So it doesn't strike you in the least bit odd that Obama is authorizing military force against Libya under the guise of "protecting the protesters" yet he's not doing the same for Syria or any other African country where people are being slaughtered? It doesn't seem strange that after he promised to close Guantanamo and made a huge show his first day in office signing his signature that it would be closed within a year and now he's once again holding trials there? Is it that there are BIG lies and LITTLE lies?
Big Tex I'm not arguing with you and I hope you don't take this as such. I simply used your original reply to Gnadfly to raise some overall questions that have been running through my mind about what I've seen take place since he took office. I gotta be honest and say that it seems to me that all the things Bush was accused of....like being in bed with "big business", the "Oil companies", wanting to wage wage war to "show he's tough", all of the things Bush was accused of, the case can now easily be made that Obama's policies are no different, certainly no better, than his predecessor. I wasn't a huge fan of our last President but I'm simply curious how the liberal base that elected Obama and hated Bush's policies suddenly have no problem with multi-billion dollar corporate bail outs, new wars being started, promises like the Guantanamo closing being broken etc etc.
So I hope you don't take my responses personal, I'm just throwing things out there in the hopes that someone out there can enlighten me on the true differences between the last administration and this one. Honestly, I don't see any.

[Nightcrawler29]

As far as Irak and Afghanistan goes, I think the American public knew we were being misled from day 1. There was a definite push to getting things rolling there without any idea on how to fix the issues or a long term plan. Unfortunately we are ruled by corporate interests, and it really doesn't matter what party is in power, but the ones who have the money and the power underneath are probably the same. The worst part is that we got into Irak, Afghanistan and now Libya for oil interests, and we are still paying through the nose on gas here in the US. So for those idiots volunteering into the army, I really have no idea what they think they are fighting for. I would rather see them helping out in Japan than bombing the hell out of some people in Libya.... We are really a bunch of twisted savages. Instead of putting all our efforts and money into improving people's lives and standard of living, we just focus on defending corporate interests by stealing resources and who knows what else. We are living the age of greed people... welcome to the economic dark ages!

[Guest040616]

Originally Posted by DTorchia

I'm just throwing things out there in the hopes that someone out there can enlighten me on the true differences between the last administration and this one. Honestly, I don't see any.

Perhaps there is an ongoing mass extermination of the citizens of Syria to the same degree that it was occuring in Libya in the weeks prior to NATO taking action in Libya. If so, I am not aware of it! Are there injustices that are occuring in many countries around the world? Indeed there are. It seems to me the decision to take aggresive action against Libya appears to be a NATO decision. The Administration seems to be supporting the NATO decision more so than the other way around but I do not know that to be a fact. I suppose we will find out in the very near future! Won't we?

[Guest040616]

Originally Posted by Nightcrawler29

So for those idiots volunteering into the army, I really have no idea what they think they are fighting for.

The individuals "volunteering into the army" are not "idiots." Far from it! They have a very good idea of what they are fighting for. In a nutshell, they are serving their country out of a sense of duty and obligation. They deserve nothing less than our utmost respect and praise. They do NOT deserve our condemnation! End of sentence!!!!!!

I, for one, am very appreciative of their commitment and service. I trust I am not alone!

[DRorchia]

Originally Posted by bigtex

Perhaps there is an ongoing mass extermination of the citizens of Syria to the same degree that it was occuring in Libya in the weeks prior to NATO taking action in Libya. If so, I am not aware of it! Are there injustices that are occuring in many countries around the world? Indeed there are, including right here in the good ol' US of A! It seems to me the decision to take aggresive action against Libya appears to be a NATO decision. The Administration seems to be supporting the NATO decision more so than the other way around. I suppose we will find out in the future!

No need to wait for the future. Secretary of Defense Gates and Secretary or State Clinton answered those issues on this morning's "Meet the Press".

Asked if the Libyan conflict posed a threat to the United States, Gates said it was "not a vital national interest" but he insisted that the situation nevertheless demanded U.S. involvement. With tenuous democratic transitions under way in the neighboring countries of Tunisia and — more important to the U.S. — Egypt, allowing the entire region to be destabilized was a dangerous option.
Clinton noted how the strife affects Europe's key interests, from oil to immigration, and that their concerns were important. "We asked our allies, our NATO allies, to go into Afghanistan with us 10 years ago," she said. "They have been there. And a lot of them have been there despite the fact they were not attacked."
"When it comes to Libya, we started hearing from the U.K., France, Italy, other of our NATO allies," she added. "This was in their vital national interest."



Guess that answers those nagging questions I had. It basically had nothing to do with protesters and everything to do with protecting U.K., France, Italy and Germany's oil supply.



Here's a link to show you what things are like inside Syria at this very moment. Take a good look at the pics and add up the number of those killed in the various town across Syria in the last 4 days.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-violence.html

[Nightcrawler29]

Originally Posted by bigtex

The brave individuals "volunteering into the army" are not "idiots." And yes, they have a very good idea of what they are fighting for. In a nutshell, they are serving their country out of a sense of duty and obligation. They deserve nothing less than our utmost respect and praise. They do NOT deserve our condemnation! End of sentence!!!!!!

I, for one, am very appreciative of their commitment and service. I trust I am not alone!

Well why don't we continue to play this record over and over until everyone gets brain washed!! Well, I would be very appreciative of their commitment if they had the capacity to think for themselves and figure out who's interests are they really trying to defend. I'm sorry, but I can't say they deserve my respect when they just volunteer to do whatever someone tells them to do without even thinking if what they are risking their lives on makes sense. If people had been drafted it would be different because they would have no choice but to obey, but a voluntary system??... I just wish the military was used in better ways than what it is being used for. I like to think that the men and women who are volunteering into the army are doing so because they want to improve something or make a difference. I actually find it to be disrespectful to them that they are being used to do things that don't benefit the people as a whole.

[DRorchia]

Originally Posted by Nightcrawler29

Well why don't we continue to play this record over and over until everyone gets brain washed!! Well, I would be very appreciative of their commitment if they had the capacity to think for themselves and figure out who's interests are they really trying to defend. I'm sorry, but I can't say they deserve my respect when they just volunteer to do whatever someone tells them to do without even thinking if what they are risking their lives on makes sense. If people had been drafted it would be different because they would have no choice but to obey, but a voluntary system??... I just wish the military was used in better ways than what it is being used for. I like to think that the men and women who are volunteering into the army are because they want to improve something or make a difference. I actually find it to be disrespectful to them that they are being used to do things that don't benefit the people as a whole.

Whoa! I think you're diving off the deep end now Nightcrawler. It has never been a soldier's job to question what he's fighting for.
The point you make about soldiers could just as easily be made about Police Officers. Think there's no politics going on in Austin? Think the Police don't get used for political reasons at times?
Let's not forget that the United States was attacked by Islamic extremists.
Whether the way we went about responding to those attacks were right or wrong, the fact remains that our men and women in the military sign up to SERVE their country. I know I'm in the minority on this board but I believe our mission in Afghanistan was just. I've been working here for almost 6 years now. I've certainly seen my share of bungling ineptitude on many levels but that doesn't mean the original mission wasn't necessary.
I have to go with Big Tex on this one. Our military men and women deserve our respect and appreciation. They put up with so many hardships, so much risk and do it all for so little pay.

[Nightcrawler29]

Originally Posted by DTorchia

Whoa! I think you're diving off the deep end now Nightcrawler. It has never been a soldier's job to question what he's fighting for.
The point you make about soldiers could just as easily be made about Police Officers. Think there's no politics going on in Austin? Think the Police don't get used for political reasons at times?

It is true that it has never been a soldiers's job to question their orders. However, if you are someone who is thinking about volunteering, you should know exactly what you are getting into, and know well what you are risking your life for. Just to put an example, if we had some crazy nut like Hitler in power, would you be willing to blindly volunteer and do whatever you are told? I know I'm diving off the deep end again with this, but perhaps that's why there's no real interest on improving our educational system. Why would you want a bunch of young educated people if they would question your motives?

[DRorchia]

Originally Posted by Nightcrawler29

It is true that it has never been a soldiers's job to question their orders. However, if you are someone who is thinking about volunteering, you should know exactly what you are getting into, and know well what you are risking your life for. Just to put an example, if we had some crazy nut like Hitler in power, would you be willing to blindly volunteer and do whatever you are told? I know I'm diving off the deep end again with this, but perhaps that's why there's no real interest on improving our educational system. Why would you want a bunch of young educated people if they would question your motives?

I think you're underestimating the intelligence of those who volunteer. During my time in the service and my subsequent interaction with military personnel in Iraq and Afghanistan, I met quite a large percentage of intelligent and educated young men and women. Some had joined in the enlisted ranks despite having college degrees. Others had 1, 2 or 3 years of college and decided they wanted to fulfill their desire to serve and see things from a different perspective before heading out into corporate America. Others had GED's and were counting on the college benefits/funds the military provides to seek a better life after the military. Some simply joined for the sense of adventure or because they knew they lacked the maturity to head out into the world completely on their own or simply because the felt it was the patriotic thing to do. Show me 10 soldiers and I'll show you 10 different reasons they had for joining.
No matter their reasons for joining, I think the large majority of them are smart enough to know that Bush was not Hitler, that Obama is not Stalin.
I believe you're drastically underestimating their level of insight and intelligence.