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Old 11-18-2024, 10:18 PM   #1
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Default NATO Expansion Would Be an Epic ‘Fateful Error’

who saw this coming? a lot of people including the LA Times back in the day when they weren't a liberal mouthpiece like they are today


NATO Expansion Would Be an Epic ‘Fateful Error’

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-...464-story.html


By EUGENE J. CARROLL Jr
July 7, 1997 12 AM PT note the year. after the collapse of the USSR


Eugene J. Carroll Jr., a retired Navy rear admiral, is deputy director of the Center for Defense Information, a defense watchdog group based in Washington


Gen. Dwight D. Eisenhower was the first NATO supreme veallied commander. Shortly after assuming that post, he wrote these words in February 1951:


“If in 10 years, all American troops stationed in Europe for national defense purposes have not been returned to the United States, then this whole project [NATO] will have failed.”


One can only wonder at his reaction today if he learned that 46 years later, the United States was the dominant force in a plan not just to continue our powerful military presence there but to enlarge NATO’s responsibilities and increase U.S. costs and risks in Europe. If his granddaughter, Susan Eisenhower, is any guide to his reaction, he would not be pleased. She gathered an impressive group of 49 military, political and academic leaders who joined her in signing an open letter to President Clinton on June 26 that terms the plan to expand NATO “a policy error of historic proportions.”


Why have so many knowledgeable and responsible authorities, in addition to the letter’s signatories, raised powerful objections to NATO expansion? Diplomat-historian George F. Kennan perhaps said it most clearly when he wrote earlier this year in a newspaper commentary: “Expanding NATO would be the most fateful error of American policy in the post cold-war era. Such a decision may be expected . . . to impel Russian foreign policy in directions decidedly not to our liking.”


Aye, there’s the rub. The long-term interests of the United States in Europe can best be served by actions that promote enduring peace in Europe through security arrangements that include Russia as a cooperative participant. The expansion of NATO, however, excludes Russia at the same time it moves NATO borders 300 miles eastward--the recent pact providing for regular NATO-Russia consultation notwithstanding.


President Clinton and his counselors deny that expansion threatens Russia. He told the graduating class at West Point in May that the objective was “to build and secure a New Europe, peaceful, democratic and undivided at last.”


It is delusory, deliberately so, to argue that expanding NATO is a way to unite Europe. Certainly Henry Kissinger, a strong proponent of NATO expansion, was more candid and accurate when he wrote in The Times recently that “the new members are seeking to participate in NATO . . . not to erase dividing lines but to position themselves inside a guaranteed territory by shifting existing NATO boundaries 300 miles to the east.” In stating that the real purpose of expansion is to create new dividing lines, he also provided a clear picture of Moscow’s perception of a new NATO threat moved closer to its borders.


This picture also reveals that, at its heart, NATO expansion is aimed at Russia. Secretary of State Madeleine Albright confirmed this in testimony to the Senate Armed Services Committee on April 23: “On the off-chance that in fact Russia doesn’t work out the way that we are hoping it will . . . NATO is there.”


NATO expansion is an attempt to extend Cold War divisions and strengthen the alliance against the chimera of a resurgent Russia bent upon imposing its hegemony in Eastern Europe. It may be safe to treat Russia as a prospective enemy today when it is helpless to prevent NATO expansion but there is the longer-term danger. A hard-line, anti-Western coalition will be strengthened in Moscow and give priority to anti-NATO measures in the future.


Even in the short-term there may well be nuclear dangers. The greatest U.S. security concern today is “loose nukes” in Russia. Our arbitrary and threatening actions may convince the hard-liners that nuclear weapons remain the only vestige of Russian military and political leverage. Efforts to reduce numbers, lower the alert status of long-range missiles and improve internal security for both weapons and missile material could easily be thwarted by the Russian Duma. This prospect represents a far greater threat to U.S. security than the improbable emergence of a Russian conventional threat at a distant date.


Overbearing U.S. insistence on expanding NATO strictly on our terms also could weaken unity within the alliance. Serious complaints are being leveled by some members concerning the autocratic tactics we have employed to control the expansion program. It will be ironic if our attempts to strengthen U.S. military leadership in Europe result in weakening U.S. political influence there.


Fortunately, it is not too late to halt the precipitous commitment to NATO expansion at the Madrid summit this week and consider alternatives that could produce a much more stable, peaceful Europe. Rushing into an unwise decision now to expand NATO in the face of real risks and great costs would be an action that fully merits the thoughtful warnings that it would be a “fateful error” of “historic proportions.”
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Old 12-25-2024, 02:02 AM   #2
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Another thread showed why people joined NATO.

Ike said alot of things.

Like we need the interstate highway system for deploying military across our country in crisis. When has that ever happened?
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Old 12-25-2024, 02:12 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Precious_b View Post
Another thread showed why people joined NATO.

Ike said alot of things.

Like we need the interstate highway system for deploying military across our country in crisis. When has that ever happened?



would you like it to?
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Old 12-25-2024, 08:50 AM   #4
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A story from 1997? What bullshit
A completely irrelevant story. What drivel.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Waco_Kid View Post
who saw this coming? a lot of people including the LA Times back in the day when they weren't a liberal mouthpiece like they are today


NATO Expansion Would Be an Epic ‘Fateful Error’

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-...464-story.html


By EUGENE J. CARROLL Jr
July 7, 1997 12 AM PT note the year. after the collapse of the USSR


Eugene J. Carroll Jr., a retired Navy rear admiral, is deputy director of the Center for Defense Information, a defense watchdog group based in Washington


Gen. Dwight D. Eisenhower was the first NATO supreme veallied commander. Shortly after assuming that post, he wrote these words in February 1951:


“If in 10 years, all American troops stationed in Europe for national defense purposes have not been returned to the United States, then this whole project [NATO] will have failed.”


One can only wonder at his reaction today if he learned that 46 years later, the United States was the dominant force in a plan not just to continue our powerful military presence there but to enlarge NATO’s responsibilities and increase U.S. costs and risks in Europe. If his granddaughter, Susan Eisenhower, is any guide to his reaction, he would not be pleased. She gathered an impressive group of 49 military, political and academic leaders who joined her in signing an open letter to President Clinton on June 26 that terms the plan to expand NATO “a policy error of historic proportions.”


Why have so many knowledgeable and responsible authorities, in addition to the letter’s signatories, raised powerful objections to NATO expansion? Diplomat-historian George F. Kennan perhaps said it most clearly when he wrote earlier this year in a newspaper commentary: “Expanding NATO would be the most fateful error of American policy in the post cold-war era. Such a decision may be expected . . . to impel Russian foreign policy in directions decidedly not to our liking.”


Aye, there’s the rub. The long-term interests of the United States in Europe can best be served by actions that promote enduring peace in Europe through security arrangements that include Russia as a cooperative participant. The expansion of NATO, however, excludes Russia at the same time it moves NATO borders 300 miles eastward--the recent pact providing for regular NATO-Russia consultation notwithstanding.


President Clinton and his counselors deny that expansion threatens Russia. He told the graduating class at West Point in May that the objective was “to build and secure a New Europe, peaceful, democratic and undivided at last.”


It is delusory, deliberately so, to argue that expanding NATO is a way to unite Europe. Certainly Henry Kissinger, a strong proponent of NATO expansion, was more candid and accurate when he wrote in The Times recently that “the new members are seeking to participate in NATO . . . not to erase dividing lines but to position themselves inside a guaranteed territory by shifting existing NATO boundaries 300 miles to the east.” In stating that the real purpose of expansion is to create new dividing lines, he also provided a clear picture of Moscow’s perception of a new NATO threat moved closer to its borders.


This picture also reveals that, at its heart, NATO expansion is aimed at Russia. Secretary of State Madeleine Albright confirmed this in testimony to the Senate Armed Services Committee on April 23: “On the off-chance that in fact Russia doesn’t work out the way that we are hoping it will . . . NATO is there.”


NATO expansion is an attempt to extend Cold War divisions and strengthen the alliance against the chimera of a resurgent Russia bent upon imposing its hegemony in Eastern Europe. It may be safe to treat Russia as a prospective enemy today when it is helpless to prevent NATO expansion but there is the longer-term danger. A hard-line, anti-Western coalition will be strengthened in Moscow and give priority to anti-NATO measures in the future.


Even in the short-term there may well be nuclear dangers. The greatest U.S. security concern today is “loose nukes” in Russia. Our arbitrary and threatening actions may convince the hard-liners that nuclear weapons remain the only vestige of Russian military and political leverage. Efforts to reduce numbers, lower the alert status of long-range missiles and improve internal security for both weapons and missile material could easily be thwarted by the Russian Duma. This prospect represents a far greater threat to U.S. security than the improbable emergence of a Russian conventional threat at a distant date.


Overbearing U.S. insistence on expanding NATO strictly on our terms also could weaken unity within the alliance. Serious complaints are being leveled by some members concerning the autocratic tactics we have employed to control the expansion program. It will be ironic if our attempts to strengthen U.S. military leadership in Europe result in weakening U.S. political influence there.


Fortunately, it is not too late to halt the precipitous commitment to NATO expansion at the Madrid summit this week and consider alternatives that could produce a much more stable, peaceful Europe. Rushing into an unwise decision now to expand NATO in the face of real risks and great costs would be an action that fully merits the thoughtful warnings that it would be a “fateful error” of “historic proportions.”
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Old 12-25-2024, 09:59 AM   #5
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1997?

Troll thread.

Next!
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Old 12-25-2024, 02:45 PM   #6
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would you like it to?
What's that have to do with the subject of the thread?

Example given that people say things that can be false.

Stay on topic with your thread.
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Old 12-25-2024, 03:07 PM   #7
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Did NATO expand or did Russia’s sphere of influence shrink? Because they really are two different things.

Russia wants to go back to a time when their influence could directly affect those countries around them.

Unfortunately, They found that after a certain amount of time the countries in question preferred democracy, anti-corruption, the rule of law, and a free press rather than the oligarchy and corruption of the Russian regime.

NATO membership came after that change not before.
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Old 12-25-2024, 03:24 PM   #8
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Tx, Putin got that hair up his ass from Chinese Premiere (sp).
China holds a steadfast grip on lands around them and they are eager to increase territory.

Putin wants the old Warsaw Pact countries and more.
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Old 12-25-2024, 05:16 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Tigbitties38 View Post
A story from 1997? What bullshit
A completely irrelevant story. What drivel.

and yet here we are in 2024 with NATO expansion one of the driving reasons why Russia invaded Ukraine


Quote:
Originally Posted by txdot-guy View Post
Did NATO expand or did Russia’s sphere of influence shrink? Because they really are two different things.

Russia wants to go back to a time when their influence could directly affect those countries around them.

Unfortunately, They found that after a certain amount of time the countries in question preferred democracy, anti-corruption, the rule of law, and a free press rather than the oligarchy and corruption of the Russian regime.

NATO membership came after that change not before.

all of that came after the collapse of the USSR. once the USSR fell their vassal states couldn't hold on to power. none of these nations were communist before WWII only in the wake of the USSR occupying them.

of course they were going to reject what was forced on them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Precious_b View Post
Tx, Putin got that hair up his ass from Chinese Premiere (sp).
China holds a steadfast grip on lands around them and they are eager to increase territory.

Putin wants the old Warsaw Pact countries and more.

so Putin wants a full scale war with NATO to reoccupy western Europe?

nonsense. you like others think Putin is a crazy madman, you'd be wrong. Putin is a cold calculating bastard but he's not crazy and assuming that he is crazy makes your assumption based on a false premise.
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Old 12-26-2024, 09:22 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Waco_Kid View Post
...
so Putin wants a full scale war with NATO to reoccupy western Europe?
Please show me the link where I stated he is a crazy madman.
(btw i'm still waiting on you proving me wrong that donny and the voting margin.)
I clearly stated what he wanted.

nonsense. you like others think Putin is a crazy madman, you'd be wrong.

Please show me the link where I stated he is a crazy madman.
(btw i'm still waiting on you proving me wrong that donny and the voting margin.)


Putin is a cold calculating bastard but he's not crazy and assuming that he is crazy makes your assumption based on a false premise.
You should really take a break. Some people lie enough to where they accidentally post a truth. You just ain't catching a break.
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Old 12-26-2024, 09:42 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Precious_b View Post
You should really take a break. Some people lie enough to where they accidentally post a truth. You just ain't catching a break.

if you say so
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Old 12-26-2024, 10:42 PM   #12
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if you say so
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Old 12-27-2024, 12:06 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Waco_Kid View Post
and yet here we are in 2024 with NATO expansion one of the driving reasons why Russia invaded Ukraine
I’m so glad that you have a direct connection to Putin and his motivations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Waco_Kid View Post
all of that came after the collapse of the USSR. once the USSR fell their vassal states couldn't hold on to power. none of these nations were communist before WWII only in the wake of the USSR occupying them.

of course they were going to reject what was forced on them.
My point is that NATO membership was requested not required. If Russia has a problem with that maybe they shouldn’t threaten the sovereignty of their neighbors. A lesson that El Schitzenpants Trump should learn.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Waco_Kid View Post
so Putin wants a full scale war with NATO to reoccupy western Europe?

nonsense. you like others think Putin is a crazy madman, you'd be wrong. Putin is a cold calculating bastard but he's not crazy and assuming that he is crazy makes your assumption based on a false premise.
Trying to determine Putin’s intentions is a losing strategy. You should instead focus on his actions. Assassination and Invasion appears to be his primary focus. That’s why we should support Ukraine. There’s no indication that Russia will stop at the Ukrainian border.

Wishing it weren’t so is foolish.
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Old 12-27-2024, 04:23 AM   #14
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I’m so glad that you have a direct connection to Putin and his motivations.

3 out of 4 most recent presidents starting with G Bushy II to Obama and Biden all advocated for Ukraine being a NATO member. one didn't. Trump. which one didn't see Russia take military action?



think about that.


My point is that NATO membership was requested not required. If Russia has a problem with that maybe they shouldn’t threaten the sovereignty of their neighbors. A lesson that El Schitzenpants Trump should learn.

nonsense argument. a request is a request. it signals intent.


Trying to determine Putin’s intentions is a losing strategy. You should instead focus on his actions. Assassination and Invasion appears to be his primary focus. That’s why we should support Ukraine. There’s no indication that Russia will stop at the Ukrainian border.

Wishing it weren’t so is foolish.

and you believe the neocon assumption that he won't. that attitude is more dangerous than Putin himself.
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Old 12-27-2024, 05:30 PM   #15
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Quote:
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and you believe the neocon assumption that he won't. that attitude is more dangerous than Putin himself.
Since you keep posting about the Ukraine issue it’s obviously important to you.

We obviously disagree on whether we should be supporting Ukraine.

What would you like to see Trump handle the issue? What is the ideal end game for the Ukrainian issue?
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