no vaccine - no access ?

[VitaMan]

If you ran a cruise line, what would you do ?

[txdot-guy]

Take this for what you will. The supreme court has already ruled on vaccinations in a few cases. A quick google search for supreme court vaccinations shows

Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 (1905), was a United States Supreme Court case in which the Court upheld the authority of states to enforce compulsory vaccination laws. The Court's decision articulated the view that individual liberty is not absolute and is subject to the police power of the state.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts


Or Prince v. Massachusetts, 321 U.S. 158 (1944) - Supreme Court finds child protection laws, including vaccination, supersede parental religious freedom.
https://biotech.law.lsu.edu/cases/pp/prince-v-ma.htm

[VitaMan]

Focus is drifting, but this may give an idea how difficult uniform agreement to covid 19 vaccination enforcement might be.

[HedonistForever]

Like I said, there will be many, many Black people who will refuse to get vaccinated. What do we think they will say when they get denied service? "It's because we are Black", just like the Democrats do any time anything is questioned with a Black person involved.


But hey, if this is the road Democrats want to go down, splitting the country, instituting different classes of Americans, those with all rights, those with some, be my guest. Can't wait for 2022.

[Strokey_McDingDong]

Actually, one can simply squirt Robotussin DM up the ass hole and him/herm will become immune to COVID-19 disease.

It's also a powerful SPIRITUAL experience.

Trust your higher self.

Love and light.

Hating/loving yourself is a full time job!

Anyone want to accompany me on this spiritual journey?

[HedonistForever]

Originally Posted by Tiny

I can see your point of view as applied to, say, blacks and Republicans. Although not to registered Democrats. Just kidding Democrats.

Businesses should have the right to serve who they want to serve.



I think that was decided in the 1964 Civil Rights Act as not being the case. You can not refuse service on the basis of color and I can easily see the courts saying you may not require the health record of a person seeing as we already have laws against un-authorized sharing of health information.



If they don't want to sell to you because you don't have a COVID vaccination or a TB test or because you refuse to submit to a temperature test, then that's their right in a free society.

One would think so but you know that isn't true. There are categories of people you may not refuse service to and this "Could" end up being one of them. Once we reach herd immunity, I think we are already there, none of this will be necessary. Some businesses may not want to encounter the wrath of people that will not accept this new normal, some will not. Will you now have to make a list every time you leave the house as to who will be requiring this and who won't?

43.4% of Americans have been fully vaccinated. Count in people who've received one shot and those who had the disease but not the vaccine, and maybe around 60% are reasonably well protected.

What about the other 40%? These cruise ships have been shown to be COVID incubators. You've got a lot of people crammed into a small place, and the people who haven't gotten vaccinated probably aren't going to wear N95 masks either. You get something like the Delta variant on a cruise ship and not only are you going to have the unvaccinated coming down with COVID, but vaccinated people as well.



Then we are all dead!!! Seriously, when will we ever be able to go back to normal lives if the next variant, is right around the corner? Have you given any thought to the FACT that anybody can purchase a "fully vaccinated card" on the internet? How could a cruise ship possibly verify that everybody has been fully vaccinated?



A recent study out of Scotland indicates the Pfizer vaccine, the best of the bunch, is only 79% effective against that variant, which has rapidly come to account for the majority of cases in the UK and India. There's a good chance it will be the dominant strain in the U.S. soon too. The Delta Variant not only is highly contagious, but once infected it's about 2X as likely to put a person into the hospital as the UK variant, which currently is number one in the United States.

There are more people like your friend than you think. Do the Cruise Lines want to do this because they're bleeding hearts out to save humanity from the unvaccinated heathen? Hell no. They want to do it to make more money, so that people won't be afraid to go on cruises and so they won't get sued.

Simple answer to that last part, pass a law with no liability attached to businesses like "swim at your own risk". To avoid a lawsuit, a business could put a sign on the door that says "we do not require proof of vaccination" and let the individual decide. This is going to be one helluva new normal anyway we look at this.

It's not 95% effective. Again, perhaps 79% for the Delta variant which is crowding out the other ones where it's present. 90% for the UK variant that's currently #1 in the USA. That's with Pfizer. It's less for the other vaccines.

And again, if say 40% of the passengers are not vaccinated, you're telling the Cruise Lines they've potentially got to be prepared to handle localized epidemics onboard if they want to stay in business. Or find someplace other than Florida to set to sea.

Which is the decision they will have to make. Sometimes one has to stand on a principal just like all those early business owners who decided to serve Blacks long before it became mandatory. "This is what I'm doing because it is the right thing to do, not discriminate, and if we lose business, we lose business".


Gov. DeSantis has decided that he is not going to have a State that requires people to "show their papers". If you don't want to live in a state like that, you have 49 others to choose from, well, maybe not 49 but you'll have others which is AGAIN, why I believe we must have a federal law that settles this. Having a patch work of states some requiring others not, does not sound like a good way to move forward.


If the SC tells Ron DeSantis that he must allow the cruise industry and every business in America that they may require proof of vaccination, legally, the matter will be settled and that is what I think we need.

[Strokey_McDingDong]

YOU'RE WRONG!!!!!!!

[HedonistForever]

Originally Posted by VitaMan

If you ran a cruise line, what would you do ?

I would weigh the legal ramifications against the money made or lost by such a decision and make a decision to stay in Florida and hope that most people will be vaccinated and believe they are protected from those that are not and the liability that might come with that.


or


Move my ships somewhere that allows them to make this requirement and hope like hell they don't find out that even this will not protect them from a contagion.


Moving the ships, I would guess, would be the most cost effective. We'll see.


Me, I had no plans on ever cruising again, once was enough for me, didn't care for it, living on a Destroyer for 3 1/2 years was enough for me.

[DesWad]

Originally Posted by VitaMan

Under what conditions are organizations going to be able to deny people access to their facilities, if they have not gotten the covid 19 vaccine shot ?


Will they be able to deny access just because they say so, or their lawyers told gave them that legal advise, or because their board of directors have voted on it ?


Will that legally stand up ?

Nobody has proven the "virus" was not a farce to get Trump out. Nobody has proven that the mRNA vaccine has no mid to long term negative effects. Nobody has proven that you can give Covid after the vaccine or receive Covid after the vaccine. Nobody has proven how often the vaccine will be needed. This list goes on...
So to answer your question, absolutely fucking not.

[Jacuzzme]

Originally Posted by Yssup Rider

Just WOW!

Could you find a more offensive and inappropriate comparison?

Asking for 6,000,000 friends.

Don’t get your panties in a bunch, Mr Thinskin. It’s a technique taken from the great Ali Limbali (PBUH), illustrate absurdity by being absurd.

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by Strokey_McDingDong

Actually, one can simply squirt Robotussin DM up the ass hole and him/herm will become immune to COVID-19 disease.

It's also a powerful SPIRITUAL experience.

Trust your higher self.

Love and light.

Hating/loving yourself is a full time job!

Anyone want to accompany me on this spiritual journey?

No McDingDong, none of us is going to squirt Robotussin DM up your ass. This does not sound like a spiritual journey. It sounds like an enema.

[gnadfly]

Originally Posted by HedonistForever

...
[SIZE=3]..
Here in Florida, all those stores that had signs that say, "you may not enter without facial covering", now say "facial covering is not required for those who have been vaccinated but still required if you have not" but it is an honor system because you may not be asked to "see your papers".

Same signs in Vegas. I'm sure 50% of those people haven't vaxxed. They came to gamble. It's still like <1% of people are going to die. And that's just in a certain group. Hopefully it'll it will just rid of those 70+yo who are pulling O2 tanks with them.

Originally Posted by Strokey_McDingDong

CDC Director says masks offer more protection than the vaccine.

What hasn't the CDC/Fauci said at this point?

Originally Posted by SpeedRacerXXX

I have not read all the responses in this thread.

No the CDC has not said you can't get COVID if you've been vaccinated. The odds are between 80-95% that you won't get COVID based on the manufacturer.

I have a cruise planned in December. However, if I was going on one of the cruises planned in July or August I fully support the rule that would not allow unvaccinated guests on the cruise. If just one of the thousands of people on board comes down with the virus, the cruise is basically ruined for all. I realize that even limiting passengers to fully vaccinated people, someone can come down with COVID, which recently happened. But the goal should be to reduce the odds as much as possible. But DeSantis has made his decision.

Again, what about the ports of call? Last two cruises out of Galveston we had to go back to port after people died. That make it very clear that people who have terminal health conditions, very pregnant, etc should not get aboard. The passengers don't care.

A few days ago two passengers tested positive for COVID even though they've be vaxxed. They ship and passengers were still allowed to come home. Thousands of people are coming into the states without vaxxes and positive. Where's your outcry?

Originally Posted by Tiny

...
There are more people like your friend than you think. Do the Cruise Lines want to do this because they're bleeding hearts out to save humanity from the unvaccinated heathen? Hell no. They want to do it to make more money, so that people won't be afraid to go on cruises and so they won't get sued.



It's not 95% effective. Again, perhaps 79% for the Delta variant which is crowding out the other ones where it's present. 90% for the UK variant that's currently #1 in the USA. That's with Pfizer. It's less for the other vaccines.

And again, if say 40% of the passengers are not vaccinated, you're telling the Cruise Lines they've potentially got to be prepared to handle localized epidemics onboard if they want to stay in business. Or find someplace other than Florida to set to sea.

You're hysterical again. Relax, you'll be OK. Cruise lines have billions of dollars invested and millions of fans. Time to get them operational. Pandemic is over if you want.

The big takeaway is that people have bought hook line and sinker is that "The US govt can keep you safe and everything it does can be justified by that."

[SpeedRacerXXX]

Originally Posted by gnadfly

Again, what about the ports of call? Last two cruises out of Galveston we had to go back to port after people died. That make it very clear that people who have terminal health conditions, very pregnant, etc should not get aboard. The passengers don't care.

A few days ago two passengers tested positive for COVID even though they've be vaxxed. They ship and passengers were still allowed to come home. Thousands of people are coming into the states without vaxxes and positive. Where's your outcry?

There are times and places where it is more prudent to limit access to fully vaccinated people. Whoever said most establishments are using the honor system is correct. Signs state "if you have not been vaccinated please wear a mask." I doubt this policy works but there is no way to check all customers at a major store.

But a cruise ship is different. First, the cruise line knows who is coming on board usually months ahead of time and can check the vaccination status of passengers rather easily, and validate that they are legal. Second, the passengers do care on most cruise lines. Third, cruises last from 3 days to 180+ days. My next planned cruise is 30 days. If people are not required to be fully vaccinated. and I don't know what the requirements are right now, 6 months from cruise time, there will probably be the standard precautions required -- wear masks when among other passengers and social distance. If requiring full vaccination of all passengers eliminates those requirements, I am all for it.

Royal Caribbean announced they will not require vaccinations for passengers but those not vaccinated will have to be tested and "follow other protocols". \

In a news release earlier this week, Carnival Cruise Line announced that the Carnival Vista and Breeze will sail in July from Galveston with all vaccinated passengers, despite a Texas law banning vaccine verifications. The cruise line said it hoped to provide an update today about the Carnival Horizon’s scheduled restart out of Miami in July.

Despite Florida’s law, Norwegian Cruise Line is also insisting it will require everyone on board its ships to be fully inoculated against Covid-19.

“At least in the beginning, 100% of our guests and our crew will be vaccinated,” Norwegian CEO Frank Del Rio told CNN in late May. “I think everyone should be wanting to start cruising in the safest possible manner.”

Since the start of the pandemic, I have taken 4 vacations, the last 2 weeks ago to Aruba. I eat at restaurants, I go to the movies, I go to the gym almost daily. In the last 2 weeks I've gone to 3 concerts. Point being I am careful but not overly worried about the virus since I am vaccinated. But I do like the odds tilted as much as humanly possible in my favor.

[HedonistForever]

Originally Posted by SpeedRacerXXX

There are times and places where it is more prudent to limit access to fully vaccinated people. Whoever said most establishments are using the honor system is correct. Signs state "if you have not been vaccinated please wear a mask." I doubt this policy works but there is no way to check all customers at a major store.

But a cruise ship is different. First, the cruise line knows who is coming on board usually months ahead of time and can check the vaccination status of passengers rather easily,



Please explain. When I Google "is there a federal data base of vaccinated people", this is what I get.


https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/adults/...n-records.html

and validate that they are legal. Second, the passengers do care on most cruise lines. Third, cruises last from 3 days to 180+ days. My next planned cruise is 30 days. If people are not required to be fully vaccinated. and I don't know what the requirements are right now, 6 months from cruise time, there will probably be the standard precautions required -- wear masks when among other passengers and social distance. If requiring full vaccination of all passengers eliminates those requirements, I am all for it.

Royal Caribbean announced they will not require vaccinations for passengers but those not vaccinated will have to be tested and "follow other protocols". \


Then there is the answer to the problem in Florida should the cruise line decide to take that route of not demanding everybody be vaccinated


In a news release earlier this week, Carnival Cruise Line announced that the Carnival Vista and Breeze will sail in July from Galveston with all vaccinated passengers, despite a Texas law banning vaccine verifications. The cruise line said it hoped to provide an update today about the Carnival Horizon’s scheduled restart out of Miami in July.

Despite Florida’s law, Norwegian Cruise Line is also insisting it will require everyone on board its ships to be fully inoculated against Covid-19.

“At least in the beginning, 100% of our guests and our crew will be vaccinated,” Norwegian CEO Frank Del Rio told CNN in late May. “I think everyone should be wanting to start cruising in the safest possible manner.”



We'll see if they want to give up that brand new 10 million dollar terminal in Miami and pull out. My bet is, they will figure out a way to compromise.


Since the start of the pandemic, I have taken 4 vacations, the last 2 weeks ago to Aruba. I eat at restaurants, I go to the movies, I go to the gym almost daily. In the last 2 weeks I've gone to 3 concerts. Point being I am careful but not overly worried about the virus since I am vaccinated.

Good for you, that is how all vaccinated people should be living their lives and not hung up on "what if".


I find it very hard to believe that un-vaccinated people would take a cruise but say a couple do. What are the odds at this point in time, that those couple of people will be asymptomatic upon boarding and days later be positive for Covid? A couple of million to one? And since you are vaccinated, the chance of you becoming so ill you need hospitalization is less than 5% at best and more like less than 1%?



Is it really going to be worth it with things improving as they are, that stores, gyms, movie theaters, concerts will start denying anybody from entering that can't prove they have been vaccinated and again, what about the fake vaccination cards? A cruise line might be able to do better checks but no guarantee they won't make mistakes.


I can just see a Black person being refused service at a lunch counter because he or she will not produce a vaccine card. That will be the end of our democracy.

[1blackman1]

Your concern for black people is hilarious.