A good guy with a gun will stop a bad guy with a gun

[grean]

Originally Posted by LexusLover

There is a distinction between a Grand Jury not indicting and a defense to the prosecution. The recent infamous case is the illegal alien in S.F. for the death of the bystander. He was charged, but not convicted. He was not shooting at someone, though. As I said I don't recall seeing that defense in a statute.

Point is from the article it seems that if police, while trying to keep someone from killing another, accidentally kill someone else, there are some protections from prosecution.

[I B Hankering]

Originally Posted by gnadfly

Back when "Black Lives Matter" about two years ago, there was an incident where a crazed black man went bezerk at a car dealership in Arlington, TX. It was night but he damaged a bunch of cars on the lot, broke into the showroom and was vandalizing the place.

The police showed up and a rookie cop shot and killed the black intruder inside the showroom. The rookie cop said he though he had a knife. Videotape of this vandal shows a wacked out black man with a mohawk.

Since the policeman was on probation and "should have waited for backup" he was fired. Nevermind that his mentor cop and other officers where at the scene.

Sometimes you need a fall guy. City "quieted down."

The policy of not entering without backup changed after the Columbine shooting, which was treated as a hostage situation, which it wasn't. Since Columbine, most police officers are being instructed to get to the shooter and end the situation. "If someone in the building is shooting, and you’re the first one there, you’re going in." – Indiana State Police Trooper Aaron Gaul.

[Why_Yes_I_Do]

Originally Posted by LexusLover

#1: Teacher is hit before teacher can fire even if the teacher is wearing the weapon while teaching.

That would be a narrow band option, such as the shooter just suddenly appeared and the first time noticed by anyone was the teacher seeing them come through the door, which was not the scenario you provided. Recall, Sandy Hook involved the shooter shooting his way through security. In the Florida case, many students reported hearing shots from afar, from somewhere, before seeing the shooter.

Originally Posted by LexusLover

#2: I've not seen any codified "defense" to aggravated assault or murder based upon a missed round or pass through hitting a bystander, even in a mass shooting situation. If there is it would be nice if someone provided a citation and the state to take a look at how it is crafted. It would not be a capital offense, because the intent to kill the person hit is absent, but the intent to commit the act of firing is present. My guess is CHL holders were taught that hitting bystanders is problematic.

Yes, hitting bystanders is problematic. Possibly there could be other charges, reckless endangerment or involuntary manslaughter - I dunno. If the perp was dropped, it would probably come under some sort of hero-hallo. Either way, knowing what is beyond your target is a fundamental rule. Hopefully one could use basic geometry to reduce the risk. Like stay low, aim high. But the question remains, would you take that shot if it meant you might hit an innocent? I mean that from an internal thought process as much as from a defense from prosecution sense.

Originally Posted by LexusLover

I've consistently said that an ounce of "prevention" is worth a pound of "cure"!

Stop people before they get on campus.

It's done in this country for government buildings and airports, as well as a lot of private, commercial businesses. What's the big deal with schools? Liberals! They don't like "guns" and "police"!

It's done in prisons as well. But do we want schools to be indistinguishable from prisons, sans the razor wire? At what cost? I doubt it's in the ounce category, more like multiple pounds of prevention. School budgets are hard to come by. As a consumer, I would want to see school choice options, yes vouchers, where I could pick the school of my choice. Maybe I want a place with razor wire and that prison vibe or maybe something different. But yes, not having a confrontation that endangers student is highly important.

Originally Posted by LexusLover

As far as I am concerned by the time the shooter gets to a claissroom (unless the target IS IN THAT CLASSROOM) already there are casualties and the neutralizing the situation is complicated ... entering, identifying, and confronting.

That's called situational awareness. I think of it as the Holy Trinity; You, your weapon and the environment. The perp is part of the environment. Observing their movements and protecting yourself are important as much as knowing how/where/when to use your weapon. Obviously, panic and fear are your enemies, so is the perp, but the perp is likely to be irrational and in some soft of blood lust. Calculate the odds based on the factors carefully and quickly. One big difference between them and you is clarity. You only need to make one shot, they are spraying rather randomly and erratically. Still - pretty terrifying.

[Hotrod511]

Originally Posted by I B Hankering

The policy of not entering without backup changed after the Columbine shooting, which was treated as a hostage situation, which it wasn't. Since Columbine, most police officers are being instructed to get to the shooter and end the situation. "If someone in the building is shooting, and you’re the first one there, you’re going in." – Indiana State Police Trooper Aaron Gaul.

I guess Mr Peterson had a different mine set for what ever reason

[LexusLover]

Originally Posted by Why_Yes_I_Do

You only need to make one shot, they are spraying rather randomly and erratically. Still - pretty terrifying.

#1: "one shot" is not proper training. Neither is a "head shot"!

#2: The teacher will not have sufficient training to respond in the time constraints and under the conditions if a shooter emerges at the door (the teacher would have 1-2 seconds to respond ... accurately*) ... using your scenario of shooting in progress before he arrives at the door .... the door should be "shooter proof" at that point ... so the teacher would have be called upon to address the shooter coming into the classroom.

*proper training" standards are "un-ass, 2 rounds center mass with 85% accuracy at about 7 meters, and reholster within 3 seconds .. goal is 2 seconds. That's strong hand. One has to be trained on weak hand and recharging a magazine with weak hand with the strong hand disabled.

You are assuming worst case scenario with shooter and best case with teacher.

Not a formula for success and safety.

[garhkal]

Originally Posted by friendly fred

A Peace Officer has a duty to intervene. If he is scared to engage, he should resign or be fired for dereliction of duty.

That He should/... BUT the sheriff just let him resign...

Originally Posted by LexusLover

That's present in a lot of places .... but that does not impose a duty on a school resource officer with a pistol to charge into an active shooting situation in a building when he's uncertain as to where a shooter is or how many are there and what types of weapons he or they may have ... not to mention explosive vests or whatever .... particularly if dispatch informs him that "back up" is on the way and to hold his position until they arrive .... who more than like lacks the adequate training to neutralize the UNKNOWN situation BY HIMSELF.

So what then, is the point in having those 'school resource officers' if they have NO DUTY to do jack diddly squat to stop/prevent a shooting, and/or lack the training??

[I B Hankering]

Originally Posted by Hotrod511

I guess Mr Peterson had a different mine set for what ever reason

IDK. I wasn't there. If I were there, I would want to try to advance on the guy from behind. Four minutes is a long time, but I'm not sure if it was possible in four minutes to determine the shooter's location and then move to a position to take out the shooter. A cop needlessly exposing himself and getting shot and killed isn't doing anyone else any good, either.

If the video shows the cop standing in one place for the full four minutes, then he was probably too scared to move and wrong. If the video shows him moving in a manner that indicates he was trying to locate the position of the shooter before entering a building, then one really can't fault him for being unsure of which way to best advance.

The article from which I quoted Trooper Gaul mentioned that LE is now issued high power rifles to use on such occasions. It's obvious Peterson didn't have a high powered rifle.

This just in, three other deputies first on the scene failed to enter the building

Coral Springs police upset at some Broward deputies for not entering school

"Coral Springs police were stunned and upset that the four original Broward County Sheriff's deputies who were first on the scene did not appear to join them as they entered the school ..."

(CNN)

[WTF]

We are going to turn into a police state...Israel 2.0.

[friendly fred]

Texas Code of Criminal Procedure 2.13

Art. 2.13. DUTIES AND POWERS. (a) It is the duty of every peace officer to preserve the peace within the officer's jurisdiction. To effect this purpose, the officer shall use all lawful means.

(b) The officer shall:

(1) in every case authorized by the provisions of this Code, interfere without warrant to prevent or suppress crime;

(2) execute all lawful process issued to the officer by any magistrate or court;

(3) give notice to some magistrate of all offenses committed within the officer's jurisdiction, where the officer has good reason to believe there has been a violation of the penal law; and

(4) arrest offenders without warrant in every case where the officer is authorized by law, in order that they may be taken before the proper magistrate or court and be tried.

(c) It is the duty of every officer to take possession of a child under Article 63.009(g).

I feel sorry for that Officer in Florida - but he has to go in that building whether he wants to or not, and stop that shooter or die trying. If he isn't willing to do that, he should resign, and apparently, he did.

I'm not saying I would have had the balls to do it - but I ain't no cop.

[garhkal]

Word now coming out, is he was NOT THE ONLY officer on duty at the school.. There were 3 others.. supposedly. It was on tonoght's 11pm news slot.

[LexusLover]

Originally Posted by grean

Point is from the article it seems that if police, while trying to keep someone from killing another, accidentally kill someone else, there are some protections from prosecution.

The article doesn't say that, nor does the statute.

Generally speaking LE has the same standards of defense as civilians....whether it's defense of self or defense of others.

The only real distinction is the official status of the officer based on identifying with a statement or uniform his status, which elevates the offense against the officer which in turn elevates the level of response the officer is entitled to you for protection of himself or herself.

[LexusLover]

Originally Posted by garhkal

Word now coming out, is he was NOT THE ONLY officer on duty at the school.. There were 3 others.. supposedly. It was on tonoght's 11pm news slot.

The other 3 officers responded to the incident, arrived while it was ongoing, and ALSO took a defensive position behind their vehicles until the POLICE arrived. That is the report.

If that holds then the "coward" theory was a bit premature!

Like I've suggested: The Sheriff is covering his ASS!

It would be nice if people would hold judgment on others until the WHOLE TRUTH AND ONLY THE TRUTH are revealed. But that's not the internet, that's not the 24/7 media news cycle, and that's not POLITICS TODAY!

Like Ferguson by the time the TRUTH comes out everyone will be concerned about something else, which today will be the next bimbo who claims Trump grabbed her pussy or kissed on the mouth! Particularly since the Russian Collusion bullshit has pretty much been shit-canned, and 20 year old sexcapades is about all that's left.

[bamscram]

Sheriff reported they will investigate the report of the three deputies, but had not seen any tape showing it occurred.

[LexusLover]

Originally Posted by garhkal

So what then, is the point in having those 'school resource officers' if they have NO DUTY to do jack diddly squat to stop/prevent a shooting, and/or lack the training??

There are several issues generally, but as the FACTS of the current school district and sheriff's department unfold you will see I believe that neither took school protection and safety seriously or as a priority.

It's beginning to be revealed that the school district didn't want LE to intervene in school "problems" (and even student crimes) and if you listen to the superintendent (he's ranted several times on national TV) he wants to control "guns" but not the school. The sheriff wants "gun control" also. So there are two nut cases (one an "educator" the other "LE") who apparently believe this shooter would not have been shooting students if he hadn't had an AR-15, because they apparently believe there were doing everything else correctly.

That's TEACHERS and that's a politician covering his own ass.

Again.. realize Columbine was almost 20 years ago. Look where they are! 21 years ago!

Multiple Broward County Sheriff's deputies did not enter the school during a high school shooting in Parkland, Fla., last week, according to CNN sources on Friday.

CNN reported that when the nearby Coral Springs police department officers arrived on the scene, three sheriff's deputies from the school county were standing behind their vehicles with their pistols drawn, but had not yet gone into the school.

If confirmed, that raises the number of Broward County police officers on the scene who did not enter the active shooting situation to four, following a report that Scot Peterson was present but did not enter the building when the shooting occurred.

Peterson, a sheriff's deputy and the armed resource officer at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School, was suspended Thursday and subsequently resigned.

CNN reported that the Coral Springs officers responding to the scene entered the school soon after arriving and were joined by two newly-arrived Broward County sheriff's deputies and an officer from Sunrise, Fla.

http://thehill.com/homenews/news/375...-hadnt-entered

If some LE people will get honest when being interviewed you will hear they do not respect "campus cops" and consider them glorified security guards ... and will say they are not "real cops"! Historically local departments assign older, out of shape, and/or ineffective officers to "school duty" and in today's environment they are not much more than cannon fodder.

The school districts/colleges won't spend adequate money to train them from violence threats or special operation situations and end up sending them to schools on multi-culturalism, student feel good programs, and the like. Most administrators (and staff and teachers) don't want a uniform on campus and clearly don't want someone walking around with firearm strapped to them in "plain sight"! Cops are the "anti-Christ" to educators. They're fine for directing the school buses on and off the property or escorting the teams to sports events ... but that's it!

20 years after Columbine! With all the massacres in between.

That's what's wrong with the Las Vegas investigation.

The Hotel/Tourist Industry! They don't want armed guards, because it might "alarm" the guests and they might not want to stay. Same with schools. So 17 more are buried while the politicians negotiate NOTHING!

[bamscram]

Originally Posted by LexusLover

There are several issues generally, but as the FACTS of the current school district and sheriff's department unfold you will see I believe that neither took school protection and safety seriously or as a priority.

It's beginning to be revealed that the school district didn't want LE to intervene in school "problems" (and even student crimes) and if you listen to the superintendent (he's ranted several times on national TV) he wants to control "guns" but not the school. The sheriff wants "gun control" also. So there are two nut cases (one an "educator" the other "LE") who apparently believe this shooter would not have been shooting students if he hadn't had an AR-15, because they apparently believe there were doing everything else correctly.

That's TEACHERS and that's a politician covering his own ass.

Again.. realize Columbine was almost 20 years ago. Look where they are! 21 years ago!

Nothing was done then nor at sandy hook, and nothing will be done now. Chill out.