Sobriety

[Dr Grape]

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but sometimes there are facts that should be recognized before making a statement (you know who you are).

FACT: The American Medical Association declared Alcoholism a disease in 1956. It is not a choice for those afflicted. They didn't just try to have a good time and made a bad choice. They have a disease that takes over their choices. This is documented medical proof. Not an opinion.

[ElisabethWhispers]

Originally Posted by theaustinescorts

There's a lot of reasons why some people become addicts. IMHO the major factor is always that those people are challenged when it comes to experiencing happiness from ordinary living. The simple fact of being alive is so unpleasant for them that they must..and I mean must...find something to either let them escape, or better yet to give them a huge dose of dopamin or seratonin. Seeking escape from the drudgery of their lives is what begins the habit, and once a habit is formed it's difficult to change.

Some people just don't feel the normal range of pleasures, drives and motivations that humans are normally designed to have, and these people are the ones who find it difficult to stay sober.

My only advise is to find things in life that make you happy...really happy... And that means finding activities that bring you the normal pleasures of life and make you want to get up in the morning and do those things.

Finding a playmate who wants to be with you, in the hobby or outside of the hobby, can be one of those things - as long as that person has a healthy mind and knows how to find happiness from normal living as well.

I'm sure that you meant well by this statement however, if you haven't had any firsthand experience with the absolutely gut wrenching experience of trying to GET sober and then, staying that way (and I have a feeling that perhaps you haven't by reading what you've written), you're really over-simplying things completely.

It's not matter of feeling happy. It's a compulsion that will kill you, drive your family and loved ones crazy and well, it's a very complicated disease.

No one should think to themselves, well if I just try to be a bit more happy, maybe I won't drink so much.

Wish it were that simple. Really, I do.

So if you feel a bit miffed by others challenging what you've written, for those of us who have experienced both sides of addiction, we know of what we speak.

Take care,
Elisabeth

[Toyz]

Originally Posted by Dr Grape

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but sometimes there are facts that should be recognized before making a statement (you know who you are).

FACT: The American Medical Association declared Alcoholism a disease in 1956. It is not a choice for those afflicted. They didn't just try to have a good time and made a bad choice. They have a disease that takes over their choices. This is documented medical proof. Not an opinion.

Its an addiction. Anyone can wrap it up with a bow and say "its a disease" & quote scripture & medical diatribes. You'll only see alcoholics hold it up as a disease though. I know this will be an unpopular statement amongst those addicted to alcohol or another substance...because you need that security blanket of acceptance...but it is what it is. Its an addiction of the weak minded. Has it shattered lives? Of course...just like cocaine. Has it ruined reputations and livlihoods? Of course...just like crack...

Its an addiction.

That's not diminishing the impact or seriousness of the issue. My father was a drunk, but it was his CHOICE to hoist the bottle to his lips, not something he had no decision in it...(such as cancer, ebola, etc). I think this is a fallacy woven for the public calling it a "disease" to make it more acceptable to be "a recovering alcoholic"...as if one is getting over a bad cold.

Im not trying to make fun of anyone or minimalize anyones challenges....although I have reason to suspect OP of another in a long running systematic platform of stating anything to get attention/sympathy.

Continue with your normal chatter.

[OralPassion]

----------------
dis·ease
noun
noun: disease; plural noun: diseases; noun: dis-ease; plural noun: dis-eases

1. a disorder of structure or function in a human, animal, or plant, especially one that produces specific signs or symptoms or that affects a specific location and is not simply a direct result of physical injury.
----------------

A perfect brain is not addicted to anything.
Addiction is caused by item 1, above, making it a disease.
Good luck debating that...

[Toyz]

Originally Posted by OralPassion

dis·ease
noun
noun: disease; plural noun: diseases; noun: dis-ease; plural noun: dis-eases

1. a disorder of structure or function in a human, animal, or plant, especially one that produces specific signs or symptoms or that affects a specific location and is not simply a direct result of physical injury.

A perfect brain is not addicted to anything.

Addiction is caused by item 1, above, making it a disease.

Good luck debating that...

Not trying to debate...just making a statement. My opinion is all. I just find it incredibly rude to consider someone who likes to drink and someone who has multiple sclerosis as the same. Take it for what it is. I'm sure if I were an addict I would want that blanket to wrap around me too.

And I knew someone would find some article, definition or something to somehow validate this basic play on words...that's all this is Oral... Nothing personal, its really not.

Its an addiction...its a choice... I am SURE you can find some random something..somewhere...somepla ce...where someone was forced to have that first drink...and can somehow spin it to be a "disease".

[sean rider]

Originally Posted by Toyz

You'll only see alcoholics hold it up as a disease though.

Apparently the Mayo Clinic medical staff is populated by alcoholics.

"Alcoholism is a chronic and often progressive disease that includes problems controlling your drinking, being preoccupied with alcohol, continuing to use alcohol even when it causes problems, having to drink more to get the same effect (physical dependence), or having withdrawal symptoms when you rapidly decrease or stop drinking."

http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-c...n/con-20020866

[Toyz]

Originally Posted by sean rider

Apparently the Mayo Clinic medical staff is populated by alcoholics.

"Alcoholism is a chronic and often progressive disease that includes problems controlling your drinking, being preoccupied with alcohol, continuing to use alcohol even when it causes problems, having to drink more to get the same effect (physical dependence), or having withdrawal symptoms when you rapidly decrease or stop drinking."

http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-c...n/con-20020866

Why would the staff be addicted to alcohol? Where did you make that up from my statement?

And how does your quote differ from this one? Answer...it doesn't.

Definition (of drug addiction)

By Mayo Clinic Staff

Drug addiction is a dependence on an illegal drug or a medication. When you're addicted, you may not be able to control your drug use (insert alcohol) and you may continue using the drug despite the harm it causes (see description for alcohol as a disease above). Drug addiction (insert alcohol) can cause an intense craving for the drug. You may want to quit, but most people find they can't do it on their own. Again...same thing...different blanket...

http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-c...n/con-20020970

I've made my point...not going to continue to bring common sense into the argument...you guys find your blanket and wrap up tight in it.

[OralPassion]

No worries Toyz - I was just throwing out the facts.
No one is comparing disease A to disease B - "disease" is just a technical label.

I would not compare a Rolls-Royce to a Hyundai, yet they both can be properly labeled, a "car".

It's the "wrap a blanket" kind of statements that can be problematic.
It simply demeans the afflicted and serves no good purpose.

You'll love this:

I never liked the disease concept, nor did I utilize it when I cleaned up.
And if I were to help an addict, I would never use the word, and would not allow it to be used as an excuse.
I believe the meat and potatoes of the whole thing is spiritual - that it is a spiritual malady, and the ultimate cure, is spiritual-based.

My 16 years of clean and sober has happened through spiritual means, not medical.

[Toyz]

Originally Posted by OralPassion

No worries Toyz - I was just throwing out the facts.
No one is comparing disease A to disease B - "disease" is just a technical label.

I would not compare a Rolls-Royce to a Hyundai, yet they both can be properly labeled, a "car".

It's the "wrap a blanket" kind of statements that can be problematic.
It simply demeans the afflicted and serves no good purpose.

You'll love this:

I never liked the disease concept, nor did I utilize it when I cleaned up.
And if I were to help an addict, I would never use the word, and would not allow it to be used as an excuse.
I believe the meat and potatoes of the whole thing is spiritual - that it is a spiritual malady, and the ultimate cure, is spiritual-based.

My 16 years of clean and sober has happened through spiritual means, not medical.

O.P. now there is a conversation I can embrace.


I lived with it all my early life. I watched it consume my Father (who I dearly loved). But I never felt it was something he couldn't walk away from. he just PREFERRED to be drunk. (And he was a fun drunk, not a mean one-lucky for us). Maybe it was the reason neither me nor my siblings have that addiction/disease in our adult lives. Or maybe its because the times when I did get drunk I hated feeling like shit the next morning so learned to moderate my alcohol intake.

But...I am GLAD you have been sober for 16 years! Seriously, good for you. I'm sure its no small accomplishment.

And we were just debating terms...nothing I am that passionate about defending or attacking. Although I think it gives alcoholics a false sense of entitlement...by letting them think "Oh I cant control it"... and I'm CERTAIN that varies from person to person and can't be used as a {pun intended} "blanket statement"

K, back to the BBQ, I need a Fosters now...

[OralPassion]

Originally Posted by Toyz

K, back to the BBQ, I need a Fosters now...

Now that's funny - literally made me LOL.

I can sincerely appreciate such statements as humorous but, sadly, those trying to fight the disease, could be offended.

A spiritual perspective will win out over a medical perspective, every time.

p.s. Foster's was my favorite for a year or two.
p.p.s. Picked up a six-pack of Smirnoff Ice today, in anticipation of a visitor tonight.

[David.Douchehurst]

Whar's tha rehab fer meh an' mah Republimahkin buddies thet'r drunk on power?

[Mr Peabody]

Govna Douchehurst,
I sinsarily hopes thet thar rehab done takes both'a oura po' litcans an them thar yankees in thet Illini state

[sean rider]

Toyz, let's see if I can lay this out for you so you get it...

Originally Posted by Toyz

... You'll only see alcoholics hold it up as a disease though.

Originally Posted by sean rider

Apparently the Mayo Clinic medical staff is populated by alcoholics.

"Alcoholism is a chronic and often progressive disease ..."

Originally Posted by Toyz

Why would the staff be addicted to alcohol? Where did you make that up from my statement?

It's called sarcasm. Obviously it's not only alcoholics who think alcoholism is a disease.

But hey, who cares if the experts at the American Medical Association and the American Psychiatric Association think alcoholism is a disease? Who cares if the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) has a well defined and standard criteria for its diagnosis?

Set all of that aside because Toyz says alcoholism isn't a disease, and the scientists who have invested multiple lifetimes studying alcoholism are wrong and he's right.

[Toyz]

Originally Posted by sean rider

Toyz, let's see if I can lay this out for you so you get it...







It's called sarcasm. Obviously it's not only alcoholics who think alcoholism is a disease.

But hey, who cares if the experts at the American Medical Association and the American Psychiatric Association think alcoholism is a disease? Who cares if the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) has a well defined and standard criteria for its diagnosis?

Set all of that aside because Toyz says alcoholism isn't a disease, and the scientists who have invested multiple lifetimes studying alcoholism are wrong and he's right.

Seriously, do you ever get tired of whining?

If you keep trolling me I'm gonna pull a Dr Lecter and have you chewing your tongue off in the middle of the night...you can't get me out of your head as it is and I've gone pretty easy on you...



Here is a mystery back for everyone else to gander at...

[chuckles]

If anyone is interested in understanding the current brain science research on addiction, an excellent book on the topic is: "In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts". The Hungry Ghosts of the title are an allusion to one of the ways of being in the Buddhist Wheel of Life. These people have huge stomachs but long thin necks that don't allow nourishment to pass.