A Nation of Immigrants

[Jewish Lawyer]

Originally Posted by MojoR

OK: Roughly this is the list looking at average annual inflow of immigrants as a % of population:

Luxembourg 2.9%
Switzerland 1.5%
Iceland 1.4%
Spain 1.3%
Ireland 1.3%
New Zealand 1.1%
Austria 1.1%
Slovenia .8%
Belgium .8%
Canada .8%
Germany .7%
Sweden .7%
UK .7%
Italy .6%
Czech Rep .5%
Netherland .5%
Korea .5%
Denmark .5%
Portugal .5%
USA .4%
Israel .3%
Chile .3%
Greece .3%

If you factor in immigration outflow against inflow against base population the USA moves up to 12th place.

All those formerly white countries, destroying their own culture. Suicide.
Thanks for compiling the information.

[MojoR]

Originally Posted by Jewish Lawyer

All those formerly white countries, destroying their own culture. Suicide.
Thanks for compiling the information.

That is a sad way to look at it. Many would say (& not just the immigrants) that the countries and cultures were enriched by allowing immigration. I sure think that the USA has been enriched much more than damaged, in the short time we have been a nation, by immigration.

Looking to our own financial problems as a country I think we have been culturally more damaged with the shift in wealth from the mostly white middle class to the ALL white ultra wealthy 1%.

We've created a modern feudalistic society and that doesn't have anything to do with immigration and has everything to do with Big Business running politics in the USA.

BTW - you are welcome (for putting the stats together). It was educational for me.

[Prolongus]

Originally Posted by Jewish Lawyer

All those formerly white countries, destroying their own culture. Suicide.

Isn't that what Hitler thought? When he was exterminating Jews?
Very odd statement coming from you, JL.

[Muffman]

Originally Posted by MojoR

Just a point of clarity I have to disagree with your statistics. Having lived for 20 years in Europe I can tell you that there a fair number of countries there that allow more than 75K immigrants into their country each year.

I've not done the math but if you look at it as a % of population I think there are many countries that let in more immigrants each year than we do here in the USA.

What disquiets me is that the discussion of immigration always seems to come up more often when times are tough economically. I've yet to see a national discussion around immigration in any country when times are good. I don't want to call it racist, but it does appear to be protectionist and while that isn't bad I think we all need to be careful or it can and will become about race.

But the first problem is that it is economics 101 to reduce immigration during times of high employment and this simple fact seems to escape many people. Too little demand, reduce supply, but alas common sense seems to have died.

Percent of population is not a good way to look at the numbers because a tiny principality or island can produce high percentages that don't afford an apples to apples comparison. Nobody county is close to how many we take in legally and once you add the illegal the number grows even quicker.

You also say you don't want to call it racist, which is the typical talk of someone wishing to shut down discussion by suggesting one is racist if they discuss this issue. Do you want to know what racist is? It's letting 80% of our immigrants come from one country when people from all around the world wish to come here for a new chance at life. I have friends from Eastern Europe and Africa who say their friends and family don't have any chance to come here as we favor one group over all others. But it doesn't seem to matter what happens in America and how multicultural we become the race card is just too tempting to pass up.

Lastly, and this is not to you but to many of the comments on here. Arguing that there are only two choices in this discussion is stunningly simplistic and juvenile. The options are NOT the open door system we have now or a Berlin Wall where nobody get in and we use to have periods where we let many in and periods where we did not.

[MojoR]

Originally Posted by Muffman

But the first problem is that it is economics 101 to reduce immigration during times of high employment and this simple fact seems to escape many people. Too little demand, reduce supply, but alas common sense seems to have died.

Percent of population is not a good way to look at the numbers because a tiny principality or island can produce high percentages that don't afford an apples to apples comparison. Nobody county is close to how many we take in legally and once you add the illegal the number grows even quicker.

You also say you don't want to call it racist, which is the typical talk of someone wishing to shut down discussion by suggesting one is racist if they discuss this issue. Do you want to know what racist is? It's letting 80% of our immigrants come from one country when people from all around the world wish to come here for a new chance at life. I have friends from Eastern Europe and Africa who say their friends and family don't have any chance to come here as we favor one group over all others. But it doesn't seem to matter what happens in America and how multicultural we become the race card is just too tempting to pass up.

Lastly, and this is not to you but to many of the comments on here. Arguing that there are only two choices in this discussion is stunningly simplistic and juvenile. The options are NOT the open door system we have now or a Berlin Wall where nobody get in and we use to have periods where we let many in and periods where we did not.

Actually, I'm happy to have the debate / discussion and I'm not attempting to stop anyone from discussing the issue. There needs to be open dialogue about this subject. We all know that the current system around immigration in the USA needs improvement. What I want to avoid is the entire discussion slipping down the racist slippery slope as that then stops all dialogue and ends up in finger pointing.

% of population is the only way to compare (apples to apples) countries. The only other statistic that I can think of that would be good to know would be what the base number of existing immigrants are vs local people.

[HobbyFan42]

Originally Posted by Muffman

Do you want to know what racist is? It's letting 80% of our immigrants come from one country when people from all around the world wish to come here for a new chance at life. I have friends from Eastern Europe and Africa who say their friends and family don't have any chance to come here as we favor one group over all others.

I'd like to point out that nearly all countries do a "favored nations" type of thing in regard to immigration. As an American, I had no problem getting work permits to work in Dublin, IRE for 6 months, while my friends from Romania and Nicaragua had a lot of difficulty. Both of my friends have more higher education than I do and work in similar professions.

[Muffman]

Originally Posted by MojoR

Actually, I'm happy to have the debate / discussion and I'm not attempting to stop anyone from discussing the issue. There needs to be open dialogue about this subject. We all know that the current system around immigration in the USA needs improvement. What I want to avoid is the entire discussion slipping down the racist slippery slope as that then stops all dialogue and ends up in finger pointing.

% of population is the only way to compare (apples to apples) countries. The only other statistic that I can think of that would be good to know would be what the base number of existing immigrants are vs local people.

If you are happy to have it I will take you at your word, but when you dangle the greatest contemporary American stigma of being called racist out there it sounds like a conversation quasher. Unfortunately the discussion on a national level has already crashed down that slope as any who suggest change are labeled racist.

As for comparing the countries I would state once again that the numbers can't be apples to apples when you compare large nations to very tiny ones. A single year of large inflow or outflow can radically change the percentages in those countries and that applies to many statistical comparisons. An example is a tiny nation such as the UAE who has a staggeringly high percentage of immigrants. But nobody would think of them as one of the great immigrant nations as they bring in workers who have little rights, can be kicked out for any reason (traffic fines is a current reason) and have only brought in these immigrants as a recent phenomenon. But their immigrant percentage is 75%. Tiny numbers allow radical percentage changes rather easily.

Now if you look at what country takes the largest percentage of the total pool of immigrants every years nobody comes close to the US but if you look at immigrants as a percentage of population you have the statistical mirage that one new skyscraper project will radically change those numbers for a country the size of the UAE.

[Muffman]

Originally Posted by HobbyFan42

I'd like to point out that nearly all countries do a "favored nations" type of thing in regard to immigration. As an American, I had no problem getting work permits to work in Dublin, IRE for 6 months, while my friends from Romania and Nicaragua had a lot of difficulty. Both of my friends have more higher education than I do and work in similar professions.

A fair and true point but we like to talk about a melting pot and 80% coming from one nation doesn't support that idea. Favored nations are one thing and one nation out of 185 others getting 80% is quite another.

[Jewish Lawyer]

Originally Posted by Prolongus

Isn't that what Hitler thought? When he was exterminating Jews?
Very odd statement coming from you, JL.

I believe you can oppose a murderous thug and still support rational organizing of cultures.
Immigration to the US was essentially all white prior to 1965. Massive culturally incongruous immigration has coincided with our collapse of community.
I believe we should come up with a non violent, mutually acceptable scheme to create a place where white people could feel welcome.

[HobbyFan42]

Originally Posted by Jewish Lawyer

I believe you can oppose a murderous thug and still support rational organizing of cultures.
Immigration to the US was essentially all white prior to 1965. Massive culturally incongruous immigration has coincided with our collapse of community.
I believe we should come up with a non violent, mutually acceptable scheme to create a place where white people could feel welcome.

I think you've gone too far in saying that white people don't feel welcome in the United States.

[HobbyFan42]

Originally Posted by Muffman

A fair and true point but we like to talk about a melting pot and 80% coming from one nation doesn't support that idea. Favored nations are one thing and one nation out of 185 others getting 80% is quite another.

I don't know if 80% coming from one place makes it less of a melting pot, but I'm not sure you can apply that term to the US in it's present state or in the state that it's been in for nearly 100 years. Also you have to look at other factors that influence immigration. One barrier to immigration is what it takes to get to the country you want to immigrate to. If I'm in Mexico or Canada, I don't need to fly and in some cases I don't even need to drive. If I'm in a European nation however, I have to take at least one very long, and a bit pricey, plane ride.

[MojoR]

Originally Posted by Muffman

If you are happy to have it I will take you at your word, but when you dangle the greatest contemporary American stigma of being called racist out there it sounds like a conversation quasher. Unfortunately the discussion on a national level has already crashed down that slope as any who suggest change are labeled racist.

As for comparing the countries I would state once again that the numbers can't be apples to apples when you compare large nations to very tiny ones. A single year of large inflow or outflow can radically change the percentages in those countries and that applies to many statistical comparisons. An example is a tiny nation such as the UAE who has a staggeringly high percentage of immigrants. But nobody would think of them as one of the great immigrant nations as they bring in workers who have little rights, can be kicked out for any reason (traffic fines is a current reason) and have only brought in these immigrants as a recent phenomenon. But their immigrant percentage is 75%. Tiny numbers allow radical percentage changes rather easily.

Now if you look at what country takes the largest percentage of the total pool of immigrants every years nobody comes close to the US but if you look at immigrants as a percentage of population you have the statistical mirage that one new skyscraper project will radically change those numbers for a country the size of the UAE.

Sorry it wasn't my intent to shut down discussion on this.

As an example I lived in The Netherlands for many years. While the overall number of incoming immigrants each year is a drop in the bucket compared to the US, the impact they have is significantly larger as the impact is less diluted. The resident population is smaller, so the impact they make both from a cultural, economic and welfare is greater. Just like here in the USA illegal immigration has a much higher negative impact on border states like Texas, Arizona and California. Whereas states like Alaska, Idaho, Montana are not as badly impacted as a small % of the cost for illegal immigrants is covered by their budgets.

[Ramjet]

History has treated many former Presidents with a different view of them after they left office. Harry Truman comes to mind. Abe Lincoln has fared well too, but this factoid may land like a turd in the punch bowl: The male Irish immigrants that came to this country during the Civil War left Ellis Island and went directly to the Union army.