Paying for it... My thoughts on the book

[eholiday]

I was looking for something new to read a couple of weeks back and came across this book titled 'Paying for it' by Chester Brown. Chester is a cartoonists/writer who lives in Canada, and this book of comic strip story and notes/observations is essentially his memoirs from participating in the hobby for the past 10 or so years.

I don't want to give too much away for anyone who might be interested in reading it, but I found the book enjoyable and enlightening in some ways. All of the encounters described and illustrated in the book took place in Canada. His art is very much a minimalistic style, so don't expect detailed close-ups of penetration or stuff like that. What I found the most interesting were the many notes, viewpoints. and comments in the appendices of the book. Some mirrored my own feelings and thoughts about the hobby, while others prompted me think about other aspects that I had only superficially touched on in the past. Most notably to me was the point below.

Prostitution should not be legalized and regulated, it should be decriminalized and left at that. The government has no business regulating what two (or more) consenting adults choose to do in the privacy of a bedroom if they are not infringing on the personal rights of others. The fact that money may or may not be exchanged is irrelevant.

Focus law enforcement funds on finding those sick people that force women, men, or children into the sex trade for their personal profit. Decrying and villifying anyone who would choose for themselves to engage in this, just forces it to go more underground, while preventing those that have been abused from getting help when it is needed, for fear of legal repercussions.

He also had some comments on the issues with legalizing and regulating (licensing) that I found interesting, and most likely true if our societies ever progressed to the point of legalizing it across the board.

I'll leave it at that for now. I open the thread to discussion from anyone who wants to give their input.

[Old Horn Dog]

Interestingly enough, E-H, I read this article just the other day & thought about posting it. I didn't, but it seems to dovetail nicely into what you've brought up:

http://reason.com/archives/2013/01/2...on-sex-workers

[eholiday]

Good article OHD. It also touches on but doesn't come out and say something that Chester Brown stated in the appendix of Paying for it.

To paraphrase:

Feminists used the argument that a woman should have the right to chose what to do with her body in the case of abortion laws. Then they convienently ignore the same right for women when it comes to the idea of a woman choosing to use her body to support herself and family in the sex work industry.

[Old Horn Dog]

The theory is that there is no REAL choice, b/c women in the sex industry are all dominated by men who control their every move and beat them into submission. I guess, sadly, there are girls who can be dominated like this, but I realized 10 years ago that I'd never actually won an argument with any female human (or dog), so I gave up. To me, the notion that women can be controlled by men is hysterically funny, as my experience is that we have shorter life expectancies because they nag us into early graves...

[Arverni]

Maggie McNeill, a retired New Orleans call girl and escort agency owner reviewed that book here ...

https://maggiemcneill.wordpress.com/...-october-2012/

She LOVED the book.

You might also want to check out her whole blog which is pretty much devoted to sex worker rights.

I think it's laughable that "trafficking" scare mongers automatically label all call girls as co-erced and trafficked women. Even if they have no pimp and are doing it voluntarily - the scare mongers will tell you that they are being economically co-erced into a job they don't want to do.

Well ... IF THAT's trafficking how about this ...

I quit college and I didn't have too many options. But I am a big, athletic guy and I suppose I have some talent for doing physical things. Sooo ... with FEW OPTIONS, I joined the military. Now, people SAY that hookers "sell their bodies" ... but that is a gross hurtful distortion as ownership never changes in a sexual transaction. However, I WAS CONSTANTLY REMINDED while I was in the military that my physical body was the property of the United States government. I was told I couldn't harm it - that even a sunburn could be considered "abuse". They gave me injections I never wanted to have. Told me to clean disgusting sanitary tanks full of human waste and various other dirty, difficult, or dangerous jobs. I was told I was a "bullet catcher" and that I had to be prepared to "catch a bullet" if the occasion required.

I was TRAFFICKED to foreign countries and forced to be stationed in places that were not of my choosing. I was told that if I attempted to leave - then I would be held captive in a federal prison.

Truly - in the truest sense of the word - military people are "trafficked".

But here's the thing ...

I enjoyed every minute of it!!

And one more thing: Men are born with PHYSICAL POWER and women are born with SEXUAL POWER and it's proper human nature for both sexes to use what they were born with. In the case of men - it's totally fine to use your PHYSICAL POWER to make a living. Sure, join the military, be a cop, be a bouncer in a bar or a construction laborer - no problem, we'll pay you for it.

But when a woman tries to use her SEXUAL POWER to do the same thing for her livelihood ... she is prevented from doing so.

[essayman]

^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^

Arverni -

Well said.

essayman

[Old Horn Dog]

Averni: the part about "Told me to clean disgusting sanitary tanks full of human waste and various other dirty, difficult, or dangerous jobs" reminds me of one of the funniest stories/jokes I've ever heard:

A C-130 is up in Thule Greenland on what is supposed to be a quick delivery-and-turnaround. The pilot, a Lt. Col., is frustrated by the many delays in getting back up; it's just one thing after another. Finally, he finds out that the final delay is that an Airman still needs to complete pumping out the sewage tank on the a/c. He goes out and begins reaming out this 20 yo Airman to beat the band--I mean giving him DOWN the country: "I'm going straight to your CO... this is completely unacceptable... who is your supervisor?.. I hope you understand what this could mean for you... etc." Finally the kid, who's meanwhile just trying to get the pump to work, says, "Sir: I know you're upset. But I'm a 20 yo E-3 in the USAF. I'm stationed in THULE GREENLAND. My job in GREENLAND is PUMPING SHIT. Exactly how much worse do you think you can make my life, sir?" Pilot checks himself, laughs, waves @ the kid and goes back in the a/c...

I'm sure it's apocryphal, but it sure SOUNDS like something that would've happened to some horse's-ass O-5, don't it?

[pyramider]

Originally Posted by Arverni

Maggie McNeill, a retired New Orleans call girl and escort agency owner reviewed that book here ...

https://maggiemcneill.wordpress.com/...-october-2012/

She LOVED the book.

You might also want to check out her whole blog which is pretty much devoted to sex worker rights.

I think it's laughable that "trafficking" scare mongers automatically label all call girls as co-erced and trafficked women. Even if they have no pimp and are doing it voluntarily - the scare mongers will tell you that they are being economically co-erced into a job they don't want to do.

Well ... IF THAT's trafficking how about this ...

I quit college and I didn't have too many options. But I am a big, athletic guy and I suppose I have some talent for doing physical things. Sooo ... with FEW OPTIONS, I joined the military. Now, people SAY that hookers "sell their bodies" ... but that is a gross hurtful distortion as ownership never changes in a sexual transaction. However, I WAS CONSTANTLY REMINDED while I was in the military that my physical body was the property of the United States government. I was told I couldn't harm it - that even a sunburn could be considered "abuse". They gave me injections I never wanted to have. Told me to clean disgusting sanitary tanks full of human waste and various other dirty, difficult, or dangerous jobs. I was told I was a "bullet catcher" and that I had to be prepared to "catch a bullet" if the occasion required.

I was TRAFFICKED to foreign countries and forced to be stationed in places that were not of my choosing. I was told that if I attempted to leave - then I would be held captive in a federal prison.

Truly - in the truest sense of the word - military people are "trafficked".

But here's the thing ...

I enjoyed every minute of it!!

And one more thing: Men are born with PHYSICAL POWER and women are born with SEXUAL POWER and it's proper human nature for both sexes to use what they were born with. In the case of men - it's totally fine to use your PHYSICAL POWER to make a living. Sure, join the military, be a cop, be a bouncer in a bar or a construction laborer - no problem, we'll pay you for it.

But when a woman tries to use her SEXUAL POWER to do the same thing for her livelihood ... she is prevented from doing so.

All this time we thought Iraq and Asscrackinstan were hot tourist traps.

[Annie Calhoun]

I love graphic novels. Thanks for reminding me to pick this one up. I'm a little reluctant, though, as I have a few concerns re: how a non-provider might handle the subject matter. But I guess I'll find out whether those concerns are founded or not when I read the book!

By any chance, did you get a paper copy, or did you read it on a tablet? I was going to buy the digital copy a while back, but I wasn't sure if it would transfer well to a screen.

Prostitution should not be legalized and regulated, it should be decriminalized and left at that. The government has no business regulating what two (or more) consenting adults choose to do in the privacy of a bedroom if they are not infringing on the personal rights of others. The fact that money may or may not be exchanged is irrelevant.

Took the words right out of my mouth. Thanks for understanding.

Feminists used the argument that a woman should have the right to chose what to do with her body in the case of abortion laws. Then they convienently ignore the same right for women when it comes to the idea of a woman choosing to use her body to support herself and family in the sex work industry.

Please don't attribute this belief to feminists. This is the position of abolitionists. Yes, some are feminists. But it's like a Venn diagram. A ton of feminists (myself included) are for decriminalization, and believe that body autonomy is essential to the feminist movement, and that means a woman has the right to do with her body what she wishes, regardless of her reasons--even if that means using her body, her sexuality, and her femininity to earn a living.

[Arverni]

Originally Posted by Annie Calhoun

A ton of feminists (myself included) are for decriminalization, and believe that body autonomy is essential to the feminist movement, and that means a woman has the right to do with her body what she wishes, regardless of her reasons--even if that means using her body, her sexuality, and her femininity to earn a living.

You might like the way that Maggie McNeill expresses it ...

http://maggiemcneill.wordpress.com/

What is a Neofeminist?

If you read this site for any length of time you will encounter the term “neofeminist”. This is my own coinage, because I refuse to apply the term “feminist” to a sort of twisted male chauvinist who believes that women are not good enough as we are and should therefore strive to think, act, work and look as much like men as possible. This is in sharp contrast to “archeofeminists” like myself, who recognize that women are just fine as we are and would in fact be weakened by becoming more like men.


Neofeminism is actually nothing more than another flavor of Neomarxism, that thankfully-discredited ersatz "philosophy" which seeks to provoke warfare between two large segments of society so as to create the chaos necessary to grab power for itself. I sincerely hope that within the next few years humanity as a whole recognizes this abomination for what it is and casts it into the rubbish-heap of history along with the Marxism which spawned it, but in the meantime the neofeminists and their castrated lap-dogs have become quite proficient at warping any and every discussion on the rights of individual women into a means of furthering their own anti-male, anti-sex agenda.

[Annie Calhoun]

I actually strongly disagree with her on this (and a lot of other topics).

[jl11]

I'd like to hear how someone voluntarily enlisting in the armed forces to serve can be compared to an 8 to 16 year old girl being kidnapped, raped, and tortured.

What if the Government were to legalize, tax, and regulate and take the revenues and put toward treatment programs for trafficking victims and other victims of sexual abuse? Would you support the legalization and taxation then? If you don't pay taxes, then who is going to stop sexual trafficking? Anyone?
Before anyone calls me an idiot, this is more of the front that you need to get on to change opinions. Simply saying, "lol oh it's my body and I can do what I want with it" has been around for ages and has gotten nowhere with overturning the law.

[Annie Calhoun]

Originally Posted by jl11

I'd like to hear how someone voluntarily enlisting in the armed forces to serve can be compared to an 8 to 16 year old girl being kidnapped, raped, and tortured.

I'm not sure who made that comparison, but I agree with you that it's inappropriate.

What if the Government were to legalize, tax, and regulate and take the revenues and put toward treatment programs for trafficking victims and other victims of sexual abuse? Would you support the legalization and taxation then? If you don't pay taxes, then who is going to stop sexual trafficking? Anyone?

Why don't we use YOUR taxes to do that?

You don't get to blame providers for the suffering caused by the modern slave trade.

And by the way, most trafficking victims in the US are not 8-16 year old girls being forced into prostitution. They're people working in manual labor, hotel housekeeping, and nail salons.

[Annie Calhoun]

And by the way? I pay my taxes.

For one thing, we all pay sales tax. But I pay income tax as well, and tax is deducted from my paycheck every 2 weeks.

[jl11]

Well I take it that you read one of Averni's responses in which he gave a testimony from a serviceman. Now you're out to make me look stupid and full of shit by your response. I guess that all of the horror stories of victims of underage trafficking are just scare tactics by the Government to continue the enforcement of prostitution, eh? Oh no that's right, it's an all out fuck jl11 with, oh let's just make him look like a dumb bastard. Had I of responded that most trafficking victims are women who work in hotels and nail salons, then you'd of responded that most are underage and shipped in?

I didn't say that you don't pay taxes. I don't mind paying taxes to go toward helping anyone out of slavery. My point is that since prostitution will more than likely never be legalized or decriminalized in our lifetime, why not find another approach to go on or move to Holland or Canada.