Confederate flag was the flag of traitors

[CuteOldGuy]

They really only need one reason to secede. Then, as now, the only reason necessary is that they want to. No explanation required.

[I B Hankering]

Originally Posted by ExNYer

More bullshit from the tranny fucker.

I asked you repeatedly for citations to any of the Declarations of Secession and YOU decide to substitute the short Ordinances ratified by some of the legislatures.

They are NOT equivalent.

Florida's Ordinance is only a single long sentence with NO reason for seceding.

Most of them don't state ANY reason for secession. Exactly, and you admitted it, you racist, dumb-fuck Yankee jackass! They just declare they are seceding That's why I didn't ask for them. Are we supposed to conclude the left for no reason?

You are committing a logical error called "arguing from silence". You would know that if you were as educated as you pretend to be.

Most of the ordinances are silent as to the reasons for seceding, so YOU logically conclude that it was some reason other than slavery.

Dumb ass.

Not every state wrote a detailed Declarations of Secession. But every one that did cried like a little bitch about losing all of its slave "property".

I guess the other states were too embarrassed to go on the record and say they were leaving to keep slavery intact.

Cite where there is any such document formally titled "Declaration of Secession", you racist, dumb-fuck Yankee jackass. Documents formally titled as you claim do not exist, you racist, dumb-fuck Yankee jackass.

[Old-T]

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

They really only need one reason to secede. Then, as now, the only reason necessary is that they want to. No explanation required.

Based upon the past hundred years or so, that reason didn't work very well.

[CuteOldGuy]

Originally Posted by Old-T

Based upon the past hundred years or so, that reason didn't work very well.

Lincoln was a statist. Go figure. However, might does not necessarily make right.

[Guest032516]

Originally Posted by rodog44

Mental masterbation. You've got to be tired by now. Is the spelling ok?

Are you kidding me?

You fucked up "masturbation" twice?

[Guest032516]

Originally Posted by I B Hankering

Cite where there is any such document formally titled "Declaration of Secession", you racist, dumb-fuck Yankee jackass. Documents formally titled as you claim do not exist, you racist, dumb-fuck Yankee jackass.

Are you kidding me, you lying sack of shit?

You are the king of Google and Wikipedia. If you Google "Declaration of Secession" this is the FIRST page that comes up:

http://sunsite.utk.edu/civil-war/reasons.html

The four states I listed are right there. The titles are longer, but they are collectively known as the "Declarations of Secession".

You are supposed to be the Civil War authority, and yet you somehow don't know that? I'm supposed to believe you couldn't find them?

And the Ordinances of Secession that you supposedly DID find don't have the FORMAL name "Ordinance of Secession" either.

South Carolina's Ordinance is called "AN ORDINANCE to dissolve the union between the State of South Carolina and other States united with her under the compact entitled "The Constitution of the United States of America."

The rest have similar wordy titles. Only Florida's actually starts with the words "Ordinance of Secession".

And, the fifth page that you find when you Google Declarations of Secession takes you to this site:

http://www.civil-war.net/pages/ordinances_secession.asp

The Ordinances of Secession (NOT the real names) are right there with their correct titles. And they INCLUDE links to the Declarations of Secession. Check out South Carolina and Mississippi right at the top.

So, how is it that when I asked for the Declarations of Secession, you managed to find the "Ordinances of Secession", but NOT the actual "Declaration of Secession"?

Perhaps because you deliberately chose to ignore them, LIAR?

[Guest032516]

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

They really only need one reason to secede. Then, as now, the only reason necessary is that they want to. No explanation required.

No actually.

Not only do they need a reason to secede, they need permission in the form of a Constitutional Amendment that allows them to secede.

You aren't a conservative. You are an anarchist and a nihilist.

If any group or faction can simply quit a political union any time they don't like the way the wind is blowing, you have neither a government nor a nation.

Because there is nothing sacred about state boundaries either. A seceding state can further fragment into into still smaller states (on a whim) until you are left with a bunch of tiny warring regions. The result is chaos and violence. Take a look at the Balkans and see how well that worked out.

In the end, you wind up with a dictator taking power and restoring order among the warring factions through brutality. Kind of like Saddam Hussein.

But, Saddam is better than a "statist' like Abraham Lincoln, right?

[CuteOldGuy]

Originally Posted by ExNYer

No actually.

Not only do they need a reason to secede, they need permission in the form of a Constitutional Amendment that allows them to secede. Really? Where does it say that?

You aren't a conservative. Never claimed to be. You are an anarchist and a nihilist. Really? No, not really.

If any group or faction can simply quit a political union any time they don't like the way the wind is blowing, you have neither a government nor a nation. Actually, you have freedom. Ask Jefferson.

Because there is nothing sacred about state boundaries either. A seceding state can further fragment into into still smaller states (on a whim) until you are left with a bunch of tiny warring regions. Seriously? Do you think people are that stupid? Oh, yeah. You believe we need government to tell us what to think. The result is chaos and violence. Take a look at the Balkans and see how well that worked out. Explain that.

In the end, you wind up with a dictator taking power and restoring order among the warring factions through brutality. Kind of like Saddam Hussein. Actually, that's what would be prevented. What direction are we headed now?

But, Saddam is better than a "statist' like Abraham Lincoln, right? You make up the stupidest shit to prove your point, or lack thereof.

Never claimed to be a conservative, XNY, in fact, I reject that label completely. But since you claim to be opposed to slavery, why would you support a government requiring an involuntary association? Hmmm . . . Oh, where in the Constitution does it require an amendment to secede?

[JD Barleycorn]

A couple of things need to be corrected. There is no amendment, passage, or reason to secede from the government created by the Constitution. If fact, it says that the association is in perpetuity, meaning forever. However, the Declaration of Independence, not a legally binding document, a Virginian named Thomas Jefferson advanced the idea that if a government became tyrannical then the citizens had the RIGHT to revolt and change that government. Though not legally binding as I said, all the representives of the 13 colonies agreed to the langauge with their signatures.

Now secession is a messy business so not to be taken lightly. The idea that no reason is needed is a little far fetched. Not only do you have to do the paperwork but what do you do with the people living in your new nations who don't want to be there. Do you deport them? Do you allow them to stay with the understanding that they don't agree but they have that right. Nevermind that the former parent government may have some say in the matter. You just don't quit because you feel like it. This is the United States and not the Middle East or even Eastern Europe. I think that odds of a newly formed state breaking down further along with violence are slim and none.

Now I have written about secession here many times (why'd you leave me out this time I don't know). I see modern secession as a non-compliance to federal laws followed by legal recognition. I don't think the political environment would support another Civil War. Counties in Colorado have petitioned for secession and people here laughed. They have not quit. Now counties in California and Oregon have done the same. The latest story is about Silicone Valley. They are unhappy that they are not leading a technocracy and there is some discussion that these LEFT wingers want to create their own country with their vast wealth and genius IQs. They won't get laughed at I bet. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/29/us...?src=recg&_r=0
Notice how these New York Times article kicks the shaggy dog with that stupid "slave-owning" south comment.

[I B Hankering]

.

Originally Posted by ExNYer

Are you kidding me, you lying sack of shit? Can't produce such a document, can you, you racist, dumb-fuck Yankee jackass? Because there is no document from any of those states titled "Declaration of Secession", is there you racist, dumb-fuck Yankee jackass. So the basis for your racist, dumb-fuck Yankee ass argument is disingenuous.

You are the king of Google and Wikipedia. If you Google "Declaration of Secession" this is the FIRST page that comes up:

http://sunsite.utk.edu/civil-war/reasons.html

The four states I listed are right there. The titles are longer, but they are collectively known as the "Declarations of Secession".

You are supposed to be the Civil War authority, and yet you somehow don't know that? I'm supposed to believe you couldn't find them?


That site, you racist, dumb-fuck Yankee jackass, doesn't list a single document entitled "Declaration of Secession". What it does list, you racist, dumb-fuck Yankee jackass, are the following:


1. A Declaration of the Immediate Causes which Induce and Justify the Secession of the State of Mississippi from the Federal Union.

2. A Declaration of the Immediate Causes which Induce and Justify the Secession of the State of South Carolina from the Federal Union.

3. A Declaration of the Causes which Impel the State of Texas to Secede from the Federal Union.

Further, you racist, dumb-fuck Yankee jackass, each of those documents makes reference to the actual act of secession as fait accompli.

BTW, you racist, dumb-fuck Yankee jackass, the order of precedence ascribed by a search engine in no manner determines "legitimacy". You'd do well to note, you racist, dumb-fuck Yankee jackass, that when one does Google "Declaration of Secession", the "Ordinances of Secession" also appears as a selection @ http://www.constitution.org/csa/ordi..._secession.htm


And the Ordinances of Secession that you supposedly DID find don't have the FORMAL name "Ordinance of Secession" either.

But it's your disingenuous, racist, dumb-fuck Yankee ass that is quibbling over semantics, you racist, dumb-fuck Yankee jackass, by ignorantly consigning relevance to document "titles" -- "titles" that in fact do not exist -- and by your ignorant insistence that those "Ordinances" are not in fact the real "Declarations of Secession"!

South Carolina's Ordinance is called "AN ORDINANCE to dissolve the union between the State of South Carolina and other States united with her under the compact entitled "The Constitution of the United States of America."

The rest have similar wordy titles. Only Florida's actually starts with the words "Ordinance of Secession".

And, the fifth page that you find when you Google Declarations of Secession takes you to this site:

http://www.civil-war.net/pages/ordinances_secession.asp

The Ordinances of Secession (NOT the real names) are right there with their correct titles. And they INCLUDE links to the Declarations of Secession. Check out South Carolina and Mississippi right at the top. Again, it's your disingenuous, racist, dumb-fuck Yankee ass that is quibbling over semantics, you racist, dumb-fuck Yankee jackass, by ignorantly consigning relevance to document "titles" -- "titles" that in fact do not exist -- and by your ignorant insistence that those "Ordinances" are not in fact the real "Declarations of Secession"!


So, how is it that when I asked for the Declarations of Secession, you managed to find the "Ordinances of Secession", but NOT the actual "Declaration of Secession"? Because, you racist, dumb-fuck Yankee jackass, the document titles you insist on do not in fact exist!

Perhaps because you deliberately chose to ignore them, LIAR? There are thirteen "Ordinances of Secession", you racist, dumb-fuck Yankee jackass, wherein representatives from thirteen, southern states "declared" they were seceding from the Union. Since the basis of your argument, you ignorant and racist, dumb-fuck Yankee jackass, is wholly dependent on your so-called "Declarations of Secession", it's incumbent upon you to produce nine more, you racist, dumb-fuck Yankee jackass, to substantiate you ignorant position.

[Yssup Rider]

making friends and influencing people again, eh, Johnny Reb?

[timpage]

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

They really only need one reason to secede. Then, as now, the only reason necessary is that they want to. No explanation required.

Well, opinions vary. Last time it was tried, the folks who were of the opinion that you are flat fucking wrong carried the day....600,000 deaths later.

The entire premise is absurd and so are you and the rest of the clowns who propose secession as any sort of viable alternative to the problems currently facing our country. Shit, a better idea would be for those of us who love this country to save you the trouble of seceding and to kick your whining asses out. All of you idiots remind me of little children who have had a toy taken away from them and who stamp their feet and cry and threaten to run away from home because they can't get their way. It's fucking ridiculous.

Pick better candidates, come up with better policies and ideas, stop being nothing but haters with no fucking ideas other than intolerance and divisiveness and maybe you could get some candidates elected who can accomplish whatever the fuck it is you think you are trying to accomplish. The solution isn't to fucking secede. That is never going to happen for about a thousand different reasons, not the least of which is they're are not enough crazies in the country like you and the other nitwits on here who would support it.

[JD Barleycorn]

Originally Posted by timpage

Well, opinions vary. Last time it was tried, the folks who were of the opinion that you are flat fucking wrong carried the day....600,000 deaths later.

The entire premise is absurd and so are you and the rest of the clowns who propose secession as any sort of viable alternative to the problems currently facing our country. Shit, a better idea would be for those of us who love this country to save you the trouble of seceding and to kick your whining asses out. All of you idiots remind me of little children who have had a toy taken away from them and who stamp their feet and cry and threaten to run away from home because they can't get their way. It's fucking ridiculous.

Pick better candidates, come up with better policies and ideas, stop being nothing but haters with no fucking ideas other than intolerance and divisiveness and maybe you could get some candidates elected who can accomplish whatever the fuck it is you think you are trying to accomplish. The solution isn't to fucking secede. That is never going to happen for about a thousand different reasons, not the least of which is they're are not enough crazies in the country like you and the other nitwits on here who would support it.

Secession does not have to include a war. Parts of Massachusetts seceded to help create Maine, parts of Virginia seceded to create West Virginia, parts of Delaware seceded to join Pennsylvania on the same side of the river, and there are a couple of other examples of peaceful secession. Why do you think the map is finished? It was over 50 years between the last redrawing of state lines to the creation of Alaska and Hawaii. It has been 50 years again. Maybe it's time.

[Guest032516]

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

Never claimed to be a conservative, XNY, in fact, I reject that label completely. But since you claim to be opposed to slavery, why would you support a government requiring an involuntary association? Hmmm . . . Oh, where in the Constitution does it require an amendment to secede?

You need an amendment to secede because there has been a Supreme Court decision affirmatively stating that there is no right to secede.

The Constitution is a CONTRACT among the states to form a nation. A state can't back out of the nation any more than you can back out of a contract without penalties. Your statement about involuntary association is idiotic. So is the comparison to slavery.

ALL states voluntarily joined the US. Once in, you need permission to get out. Just like if you want to break a contract you need the permission of the other party.

To hold otherwise would be chaos - your idiotic comment about "freedom" and "ask Jefferson" notwithstanding.

If a Constitution isn't binding, then you are stuck with the tyranny of the minority. A single state that is petulant over something can threaten to secede whenever it doesn't get its way. We are going through this now with the idiotic debt ceiling debates and the stupid talk about seceding over Obamacare.

50 hostile uncooperative states will collectively be less free than one United States in which comprise is forced on all parties through the legislature.

We already went through this debate with the Articles of Confederation. Or don't you remember? I guess those who don't remember history really are doomed to repeat it.

Among other things, states were putting tariffs on each other and the whole thing was decaying into anarchy. But even then, no one seceded. They held a Constitutional Convention to form a new government structure to replace the old government structure. Even Thomas Jefferson approved.

So, the same thing applies today. If you don't think the Constitution is working out, amend it or hold another Convention and dissolve it. But no one gets to be an extortionist by threatening to leave if they don't get what they want.

Do you really need an explanation about the Balkans?

And regarding whether or not people are stupid enough to break up states into even smaller regions, yeah, they are that stupid and YOU are one of them. We had this discussion a LONG time ago when secession was being discussed. Then, like now, you were essentially advocating every region had the right to quit its political associations on a whim. I pointedly asked you about states breaking up. I think I gave the example of Texas breaking up. And you agreed that even THAT was OK because people had some kind of unfettered right to be utterly autonomous.

You were ridiculous then and you are ridiculous now.

[Guest032516]

Originally Posted by I B Hankering

.

Dear Shit-for-Brains:

The only one playing semantic games here is you. "Formal" document titles? Really? The Ordinances don't have the formal titles "Ordinances of Secession", either. Yet you have no trouble locating those.

The argument is WHY the Confederacy seceded. I said it was to preserve slavery.

You say it wasn't, but then, like an idiot, you try to use the Ordinance of Secession as proof. But the Ordinances don't state REASONS for leaving. What kind of proof is that? Except to an idiot like you.

The Declarations of Secession are the only documents that give full explanations. And they are overwhelmingly focused on preserving slavery.

The fact that not all eleven states of the Confederacy have a Declaration isn't my fault. But the presumption is that the other states left for the same reason as Texas, Georgia, Mississippi and South Carolina.

if you want to rebut that presumption, then the burden is on YOU to find some official state document that proves that some Confederate state was leaving for some OTHER reason and NOT to preserve slavery. The ordinances don't help because they don't state any reason.