Newbie with legal question...

[Marie Bella]

"I wouldn't worry about it babe" sounds like she needs help MENTALLY to trip like that!!

[ShysterJon]

Originally Posted by acp5762

How are the " Johns" arrested? The police check her cell phone and attempt to contact those associated with the numbers on her cell phone to see if they can form a case against them. Sounds likely by many, but I have never heard of an arrest being made in that manner, due to probable cause to arrest can't easily be established.

I agree it's harder to make a case against a hobbyist by using a provider's cell phone than catching him with his pecker out and money in his hand, but it does happen. A cop calls numbers in an arrested provider's cell phone. When a hobbyist answers, the cop identifies himself, says they've arrested Greek Freak Greta, and orders the hobbyist to come to police headquarters for an interview. Sure, a saavy hobbyist hangs up and that's the end of it. But many hobbyists in such a situation do just what the cop tells him to do because they believe that cooperation will lead to the cops leaving them alone. They're concerned with exposure to their wife, family, and employer. One client of mine wrote out a confession to prostitution because a provider's cell phone showed an offer and acceptance.

I can think of two other fairly recent cases where numbers in a provider's cell phone led to trouble for a hobbyist:

Example No. 1: A provider was busted at a hotel in an undercover sting after guests complained of men frequently coming to and going from her room. The police used her cell phone to text numbers in her address book to set up dates. My client appeared for his date, but a female undercover officer answered the door. The officer was much prettier and younger than the provider. The officer explained that the provider was sick, she shared the incall with her, and she'd do the date for X dollars. My client stupidly agreed and was arrested.

Example No. 2: The cops looked in an arrested provider's cell phone and read text messages between her and a hobbyist setting up a date. Two undercover cops sat in a car outside the hotel where the provider worked and waited for the guy to show up. The provider always used the same room and her clients were instructed to always enter through the same side entrance. The cops used the seized cell phone to confirm the date. When the hobbyist showed up just before the start time and headed to the side entrance, the cops called to him by his hobby handle. It spooked him so much that he walked over to the cops' car. By then they'd run the license plate on his company vehicle so they knew where he worked. The cops detained him on suspicion of manifestation of prostitution. To avoid that charge, he agreed to later set up two other providers at the same hotel by wearing a wire. (I represented one of the arrested providers. btw, the hobbyist was an ECCIE member.)

acp, your entire concern seems to be paying for a lawyer. That's fine. Maybe you know the law well enough to never need a lawyer. Maybe you're less risk-averse than others because you're unmarried and your employer wouldn't care if you were arrested. I don't know. But many hobbyists are very risk-averse, they don't know the law, or they don't handle pressure well. For them, a call to their lawyer and getting billed for 15 minutes of his or her time is well worth the investment.

[acp5762]

Originally Posted by ShysterJon

I agree it's harder to make a case against a hobbyist by using a provider's cell phone than catching him with his pecker out and money in his hand, but it does happen. A cop calls numbers in an arrested provider's cell phone. When a hobbyist answers, the cop identifies himself, says they've arrested Greek Freak Greta, and orders the hobbyist to come to police headquarters for an interview. Sure, a saavy hobbyist hangs up and that's the end of it. But many hobbyists in such a situation do just what the cop tells him to do because they believe that cooperation will lead to the cops leaving them alone. They're concerned with exposure to their wife, family, and employer. One client of mine wrote out a confession to prostitution because a provider's cell phone showed an offer and acceptance.

I can think of two other fairly recent cases where numbers in a provider's cell phone led to trouble for a hobbyist:

Example No. 1: A provider was busted at a hotel in an undercover sting after guests complained of men frequently coming to and going from her room. The police used her cell phone to text numbers in her address book to set up dates. My client appeared for his date, but a female undercover officer answered the door. The officer was much prettier and younger than the provider. The officer explained that the provider was sick, she shared the incall with her, and she'd do the date for X dollars. My client stupidly agreed and was arrested.

Example No. 2: The cops looked in an arrested provider's cell phone and read text messages between her and a hobbyist setting up a date. Two undercover cops sat in a car outside the hotel where the provider worked and waited for the guy to show up. The provider always used the same room and her clients were instructed to always enter through the same side entrance. The cops used the seized cell phone to confirm the date. When the hobbyist showed up just before the start time and headed to the side entrance, the cops called to him by his hobby handle. It spooked him so much that he walked over to the cops' car. By then they'd run the license plate on his company vehicle so they knew where he worked. The cops detained him on suspicion of manifestation of prostitution. To avoid that charge, he agreed to later set up two other providers at the same hotel by wearing a wire. (I represented one of the arrested providers. btw, the hobbyist was an ECCIE member.)

acp, your entire concern seems to be paying for a lawyer. That's fine. Maybe you know the law well enough to never need a lawyer. Maybe you're less risk-averse than others because you're unmarried and your employer wouldn't care if you were arrested. I don't know. But many hobbyists are very risk-averse, they don't know the law, or they don't handle pressure well. For them, a call to their lawyer and getting billed for 15 minutes of his or her time is well worth the investment.

I must say interesting stories. Your second example is one that can be very problematic. Obviously this guy is in an area of police surveillance. The police have already done their homework on this provider on how she operates with the side door bit and all. So they lay and wait. now the police see a guy in their scope of concern and call out his hobby handle and he responds and walks over to him, wow. As you and I both know there is a lot of smoke there but a little flame flickering too. I think you're dealing with a lot of this sort of thing. Dallas seems to have a huge problem with Internet Escorting and the police are aware of it. I live in Louisiana. I would say over half the traveling girls here are from Dallas and surrounding areas. My friend, I think you could almost state on the back of your buisness card that you handle Prostitution offenses, lol. I think it's one thing to keep abreast of the law but the ways in which they are investigated as well. Have a good day.

[ShysterJon]

I think a big problem in DFW is that providers congregate in groups (either independents who make friends with other indys, or managed girls) at the same hotels. The hotel becomes a bee's nest of sporting ladies. The hoteliers know what's going on. They're making money so they don't mind running a de facto whorehouse. Then somebody (be it a hobbyist or provider) screws up, and all the girls in that hotel (and their clients) are placed at a greater risk. Busts follow, then the girls move on to create another nookie nest. That's why I advise providers to MOVE AROUND, don't keep working out of the same incall. Routines are more discernable to LE than more random behavior.

[atlcomedy]

Originally Posted by ShysterJon

I agree it's harder to make a case against a hobbyist by using a provider's cell phone than catching him with his pecker out and money in his hand, but it does happen. A cop calls numbers in an arrested provider's cell phone. When a hobbyist answers, the cop identifies himself, says they've arrested Greek Freak Greta, and orders the hobbyist to come to police headquarters for an interview. Sure, a saavy hobbyist hangs up and that's the end of it. But many hobbyists in such a situation do just what the cop tells him to do because they believe that cooperation will lead to the cops leaving them alone. They're concerned with exposure to their wife, family, and employer. One client of mine wrote out a confession to prostitution because a provider's cell phone showed an offer and acceptance.

I can think of two other fairly recent cases where numbers in a provider's cell phone led to trouble for a hobbyist:

Example No. 1: A provider was busted at a hotel in an undercover sting after guests complained of men frequently coming to and going from her room. The police used her cell phone to text numbers in her address book to set up dates. My client appeared for his date, but a female undercover officer answered the door. The officer was much prettier and younger than the provider. The officer explained that the provider was sick, she shared the incall with her, and she'd do the date for X dollars. My client stupidly agreed and was arrested.

Example No. 2: The cops looked in an arrested provider's cell phone and read text messages between her and a hobbyist setting up a date. Two undercover cops sat in a car outside the hotel where the provider worked and waited for the guy to show up. The provider always used the same room and her clients were instructed to always enter through the same side entrance. The cops used the seized cell phone to confirm the date. When the hobbyist showed up just before the start time and headed to the side entrance, the cops called to him by his hobby handle. It spooked him so much that he walked over to the cops' car. By then they'd run the license plate on his company vehicle so they knew where he worked. The cops detained him on suspicion of manifestation of prostitution. To avoid that charge, he agreed to later set up two other providers at the same hotel by wearing a wire. (I represented one of the arrested providers. btw, the hobbyist was an ECCIE member.)

acp, your entire concern seems to be paying for a lawyer. That's fine. Maybe you know the law well enough to never need a lawyer. Maybe you're less risk-averse than others because you're unmarried and your employer wouldn't care if you were arrested. I don't know. But many hobbyists are very risk-averse, they don't know the law, or they don't handle pressure well. For them, a call to their lawyer and getting billed for 15 minutes of his or her time is well worth the investment.

I respect the original posters question and am glad he did got some good advice. Namely, read, research, study, etc. and graduate from newbie to savvy ASAP.

That said I agree it does come down to one's risk profile whether or not to call a lawyer, but in the examples (particularly #1) you gave, your idiot clients did so many things wrong it is a wonder they thought to call you even after they were busted. Just because they were dumb doesn't mean the rest of are too.

Seriously, a little common sense goes a long way. I mean they call her a call girl because you call her when you wanna piece not the other way around. You should run like hell when any lady starts soliciting you for a date. And then you get there and someone other than her answers the door and offers to pinch hit? This guy deserves to get busted!!!

[acp5762]

Originally Posted by ShysterJon

I think a big problem in DFW is that providers congregate in groups (either independents who make friends with other indys, or managed girls) at the same hotels. The hotel becomes a bee's nest of sporting ladies. The hoteliers know what's going on. They're making money so they don't mind running a de facto whorehouse. Then somebody (be it a hobbyist or provider) screws up, and all the girls in that hotel (and their clients) are placed at a greater risk. Busts follow, then the girls move on to create another nookie nest. That's why I advise providers to MOVE AROUND, don't keep working out of the same incall. Routines are more discernable to LE than more random behavior.

You're absolutley right. They feel comfortable at one place. They see familiar faces and what not and develope a false sense of security.

[ck1942]

Having been "in the game" for more than several decades, I have known more than a few real madams. This was before cell phones, PDAs, etc., and so the madams and their working girls used little black books (or red, or green) and some were not that little.

Most of the very savvy madams I knew well enough to gain some confidential info told me in no uncertain terms that they frequently "seeded" and "salted" their little books with many real names and real phone numbers of gents who were not really "in the game" but having those "seeds" and "salts" prevented LE from being anywhere near sure that any of the data were really players.

Very easy back then to gain office, home and other contact data of high ranking officials, mayors, congressmen, LEOs, judges, governors, etc.

In fact, even easier now-a-days to get personal cell phone numbers (and the related data) and enter those into a provider's cell phone, or heck, maybe even hack into those officials phones and "add" just wee something or other to their phone books and PDAs.

Not to misquote Shyster John, but imho, anytime a LEO asks you about an activity in which you may be a suspect:

CLAM UP! and call your attorney.

[ShysterJon]

Originally Posted by ck1942

Not to misquote Shyster John, but imho, anytime a LEO asks you about an activity in which you may be a suspect:

CLAM UP! and call your attorney.

I think you're referring to this post:

ShysterJon's STFU Rules

[workoutjunkie]

stop being a pussy dude.

[npita]

Originally Posted by ShysterJon

I disagree. Take a case I recently handled. My client got a voicemail message on his hobby phone, something like, "This is Officer Jones with the Dallas Police Department. I'd like to talk to you about a prostitution case we're investigating involving Sally Smith, who I think you know as Big Boobs Betty. Please call me back at xxx-xxx-xxxx."

Wouldn't you be better off just ditching that hobby phone, getting a new one and waiting to see what LE does next? If they don't know your name, then getting rid of the hobby phone cuts your ties to that number. If they do know your name, then you've at least disposed of the evidence that ties you to that hobby phone and if LE does contact you again through your real name, at that time you could contact a lawyer. I would think the most important thing to do is to immediately get rid of the hobby phone so that you aren't caught with it anything LE didn't already have.

[ShysterJon]

Originally Posted by npita

Wouldn't you be better off just ditching that hobby phone, getting a new one and waiting to see what LE does next? If they don't know your name, then getting rid of the hobby phone cuts your ties to that number. If they do know your name, then you've at least disposed of the evidence that ties you to that hobby phone and if LE does contact you again through your real name, at that time you could contact a lawyer. I would think the most important thing to do is to immediately get rid of the hobby phone so that you aren't caught with it anything LE didn't already have.

If the cop doesn't use your real name in the message, then how would you find out if he knows your real name unless someone asks him?

I think you may be right about doing something with your hobby phone, but I'd give it to my lawyer rather than ditching it. I've had cops file a case against my clients for destruction of evidence because the clients threw things away connected with an offense. The destruction of evidence charge was always more serious than the underlying case. Destruction of evidence is a third-degree felony, punishable by 2 to 10 years in the Iron Bar Hotel. And who knows -- the phone might help you down the line. It's hard to predict the future, even if you're a lawyer.

[npita]

Originally Posted by ShysterJon

If the cop doesn't use your real name in the message, then how would you find out if he knows your real name unless someone asks him?

I would assume that if LE did know my real name and had some interest in me, they'd use my real name to find me, in which case they're finding me the same way anyone else would - not through my hobby phone.

I think you may be right about doing something with your hobby phone, but I'd give it to my lawyer rather than ditching it. I've had cops file a case against my clients for destruction of evidence because the clients threw things away connected with an offense.

In that case, I suppose it would be a judgment call depending on what evidence I think they could possibly have to show that I ever had the hobby phone to begin with. I certainly wouldn't crush it under my foot while they were breaking down the door. One thing's for sure. If they're just fishing, you can't alert them to evidence you don't have and they can't discover what you don't have. If you do admit to having it at some point, but that it was stolen from you, then you also potentially have plausible deniability for calls made from it. If it ever got to that point, I would already have a lawyer in any case.