For those libs out there who blame GUNS for crime and bad things.

[Truckertom]

Jack used a knife, Molly used a hatchet, Bundy used a club. It's not the weapon that matters, it's the people that are holding the weapon. Without guns, all of those deaths still would have happended, just by a differnt means.

[Silver Bullet]

Bad people will commit crimes with guns, clubs, knives, etc... regardless of gun control laws. All gun bans do is keep guns out of the hands of law abiding citizens.

Various handgun permit laws do well at making sure law abiding citizens can carry handguns. This link shows the most recent violent crime stats in Texas and how many were committed by people licensed to carry handguns. The legal handguns carriers are by far a very safe group.
It is also important to note that violent crime has dropped in all states that have some form of law allowing citizens to carry firearms (eith proper licensing). Note that stats are 2 years behind to allow for final dispositions of cases.
http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/adminis...Report2007.pdf

[timpage]

Bullshit. All the countries that control firearms have clubs, knives etc. Cite me to the one that has 30,000 deaths a year from clubs and knives.

I note and welcome all of the responses to my post. And not a single one addresses the issue that since yesterday when we all were posting up, another 80 or so people in the US have died from a firearm-inflicted injury. Not an issue you know how to deal with is it? 80 or so people dead from guns in the last 24 hours in the United States. I'll keep waiting for whatever rationale you want to offer that justifies that kind of crazy.

[LazurusLong]

80 people in the US died.

How many of those deaths were gang violence against other gang members or related to crime infested areas where there already was 100% strict no guns allowed areas such as DC or Chicago?

[Guest010615]

Your still using the Lifetime Network style of debate. I'm talking about TOTAL CRIME after gun bans.. Lets use the United Kingdom again, since they are pretty much the most strict on guns in the world.

Crime skyrocketed there AFTER they took away the citizen's guns.

Currently the UK has more total crimes per capita then the US.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...mes-per-capita

Currently the UK has more total crime Victims then the US.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...mes-per-capita

Currently the UK has more total robbieries per captica then the US
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...ies-per-capita

Currently the UK has more total car thefts per capita then the US
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...ies-per-capita

Currently the UK has more Burglaries per capita then the US
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...ies-per-capita


Now that being said, the US does have a higher Gun Homicide rate then the UK
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...er-100-000-pop

But much lower then another country with extremely tough gun laws.. dun dun duuunn MEXICO!


Anyway, my point is.. and call me coldhearted.. but I'd rather live in a country with LESS TOTAL CRIME , than in a country with HIGHER TOTAL CRIME. Even if that means that their are more gun related deaths. I'd imagine that a large percentage of those gun deaths are criminal on criminal and suicide related. and again even with higher gun homicides in the US, the crime rate is still LOWER then the UK.... imagine that!

lol

[timpage]

We'll set aside the fact that the statistical likelihood of being a crime victim in the US and Britain is insignificant.

The problem with your argument is that people in Britain have never, at least in recent history, had open access to firearms and firearms ownership has never been widespread. The percentage of the population that owns a handgun for instance has always been miniscule. Less than 60,000 when the total ban went into effect in the late '80's. The argument that less guns caused more crime in Britain is absurd. They never had guns to begin with...try something else.

As for your flip assertion that 80 deaths a day is an emotional melodramatic argument; Maybe. So respond to it with your inexorable and irrestible conservative logic. I'll wait. In the time these last few comments to this thread have been posted, another 20 or 25 people died a firearm related death.

[Guest010615]

lol, you just keep digging yourself deeper. Thats what happens when you try to have an emotional debate and dont look at the facts..

lets break it down a little.

Originally Posted by timpage

We'll set aside the fact that the statistical likelihood of being a crime victim in the US and Britain is insignificant.

Why one Earth would anyone want to set aside FACTS in a debate?? Just because you dont like the facts, doesnt mean you can dismiss them to help your arguement. The crime statistics are VERY important here. They show a clear fact.. despite UK's gun ban, crime has INCREASED... it even SKYROCKETED and in many cases , your more likely to be a victim of a crime in the UK then you are in the US. Lets NOTs set aside that fact.

Originally Posted by timpage

The problem with your argument is that people in Britain have never, at least in recent history, had open access to firearms and firearms ownership has never been widespread. The percentage of the population that owns a handgun for instance has always been miniscule. Less than 60,000 when the total ban went into effect in the late '80's. The argument that less guns caused more crime in Britain is absurd. They never had guns to begin with...try something else.

this one is just as easy, you should really look into the facts before making these kinds of statements... Britain has a LOONG history of Guns and gun ownership, and the "recent history" you talk about is the last few decades when the government took away their guns. lol, and again you say that "less guns caused more crimes is absurd", even when the statistics are right there infront of you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnnmL4T_WDc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfTzPfdzFBY


So untill you actually start backing up your arguements with facts and not your opinions, i dont think i need to "try something else".

Originally Posted by timpage

As for your flip assertion that 80 deaths a day is an emotional melodramatic argument; Maybe. So respond to it with your inexorable and irrestible conservative logic. I'll wait. In the time these last few comments to this thread have been posted, another 20 or 25 people died a firearm related death.

boo hoo hoo.. thats the sound of all of us crying over those 25 people that died in the last few hours.. even the ones that are gangbangers and suiciders. I wonder how many crimes were overted with guns in the hands of law abiding citizens and officers in the time of the last few comments aswell.. I bet more then over in the UK. lolol

fun stuff

[Boltfan]

Originally Posted by Ron Burgundy

Why one Earth would anyone want to set aside FACTS in a debate??

That has to be the single funniest statement I have ever read.

Facts, we don't need no stinkin facts.

[timpage]

85 out of 100,000 US citizens are likely to be a victim of a crime. 80 out of 100,000 UK citizens. Your website, your stats. Statistically insignificant. Regarding UK gun ownership, google UK gun laws and find out that since 1920, UK citizens could not own any gun other than a shotgun without local police chief approval. The idea that criminal activity in the UK has increased because UK citizens have recently been stripped of their gun rights is ridiculous. As I previously stated, even when the 1987 gun laws that you cite went into effect, only 57,000 UK citizens possessed handguns. Do you seriously believe that was a deterrent to criminals and that when the ban went into effect, the evildoers conspired to go wild? I'm always amazed by how you people subscribe to the fantasy notion that the criminals actually engage in a deliberative process along the lines of "Well, I won't mug someone today to get the drugs I need to support my habit because the Ron Burgundy's of the world might be carrying a gun." Absurd. They don't think that way. That's why they are criminals engaging in criminal misconduct that might land them in prison...

1,000,000 dead from firearms injuries since 1968 in the US. US homicide death rate by firearms 6 times that of Canada, 26 times that of Australia, and 31 times that of England. As of 2006. Boo hoo yourself. Easy to say when it wasn't your wife, daughter, son, etc. Right?

200 legally justifiable homicides by gunfire in the US in 2006 per the FBI. So much for your cowboy Clint Eastwood fantasies regarding stopping crime with a gun. Versus the 30,000 deaths per year by gunfire. Excellent trade-off, right? Boo hoo for all those dead folks. You got to fantasize you would stop a crime with your gun. The FBI statistics irrefutably establish that a gun is 22 times more likely to be used in a homicide, suicide or some other type of gun-related death than in self-defense.

Post up another idiotic You Tube cartoon by way of support for your assertions. You can have your own opinion (and your absurd smilies, by the way) but you can't have your own facts.

[timpage]

By the way Ron...you might want to consider changing your avatar:

http://www.bradycenter.org/donate/events/la/

Oh, the irony.

[Guest010615]

Lolol. Now ur just getting rediculous. But atleast u did post some statistics... Tho without the sources.

And still using lifetime network tactics by bringing up my wife and kids.. You could never be in the military. You could never complete a mission because you'd be thinking "what if that enemy was my wife or kid" lol. But it is a common tactic of the far left.

And as a matter if fact , I have my CHL and I did stop a crime with my glock about 2 years ago. Ofcourse it didn't make it into your statistics. What if the intended victim was YOUR wife and kids. (haha I can't believe I just said that but I couldt resist)

And simply calling the 3 or so videos and the sources statistics idiotic does nothing to support your opinions.

And when did facts become assertions? lol

Anyway, your arguements are progressively getting worse and angry so I'll leave you to wallow in your own self satisfaction. Some folks are just too fargone from reality.

Lols. I'm done with this thread. We'll never convict eachother anyhow. Haha

[LazurusLong]

Originally Posted by timpage

The problem with your argument is that people in Britain have never, at least in recent history, had open access to firearms and firearms ownership has never been widespread. The percentage of the population that owns a handgun for instance has always been miniscule. Less than 60,000 when the total ban went into effect in the late '80's. The argument that less guns caused more crime in Britain is absurd. They never had guns to begin with...try something else.

Yeah, once those pesky colonies refused to surrender their guns and revolted into a huge civil war (known here as the Revolutionary War that we just celebrated), the remaining UK places figured it was best to not allow their subjects to be able to defend themself from the monarchy/rulers/government ever again.

WE the people, have an absolute right to keep and bear arms and if you choose not to exercise that right, why not consider also tossing in that pesky 1st amendment and stuff a sock in it.

[timpage]

Originally Posted by Ron Burgundy

Lolol. Now ur just getting rediculous. But atleast u did post some statistics... Tho without the sources.

And still using lifetime network tactics by bringing up my wife and kids.. You could never be in the military. You could never complete a mission because you'd be thinking "what if that enemy was my wife or kid" lol. But it is a common tactic of the far left.

And as a matter if fact , I have my CHL and I did stop a crime with my glock about 2 years ago. Ofcourse it didn't make it into your statistics. What if the intended victim was YOUR wife and kids. (haha I can't believe I just said that but I couldt resist)

And simply calling the 3 or so videos and the sources statistics idiotic does nothing to support your opinions.

And when did facts become assertions? lol

Anyway, your arguements are progressively getting worse and angry so I'll leave you to wallow in your own self satisfaction. Some folks are just too fargone from reality.

Lols. I'm done with this thread. We'll never convict eachother anyhow. Haha

Not to split hairs, but it's not "rediculous", it's "ridiculous". And my assertions aren't "arguements", they're "arguments". Finally, you can't "convict" me of anything but if you made any sense at all, I might be "convinced". Forgive me, details matter. As for military service, USMC 1977-1981. Semper Fi.

Additionally, I am a holder of a Texas Concealed Handgun License since the first date they were available and I go no where without my G27 or a Kimber Pro CDP. Fuck those Euro-type gun control laws.

[TheGiftedOne]

Take away the right to bear arms and the rest of our rights will follow. Plain and simple! Illegal drugs are off the streets now, right? Whew! I feel much better... Oh yeah, that battle still rages. So, gun control leads to a more lucrative market for criminals. I'm sure they will appreciate the revenues. Criminals will always possess and market what is illegal. I have owned and possessed guns since childhood and always will...

No-sayers can reach for the phone and dial 911. I'll just handle things myself. Bet my 'response time" is quicker!